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      09-16-2009, 12:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MteK View Post
No defense of Jones here. I am not defending the philosophies (which by the way he has a right to have, even in your America)

What I am saying is he is not crazy, nor is there anything in any of the sources provided here that emphatically proves how his philosophies (both past and present) prevent him from being the most competent person for his position (<- I imagine that factored more into selecting him then anything else )
On what basis would you call him the most competent?
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      09-16-2009, 12:19 PM   #24
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Why not? We trust the government to take care of our sons and daughters and their well being (read Military).
Just a small criticism... Comparing the army to a day-care doesn't help your argument.

I realize (hope) that's not what you intended but that's how it came out
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      09-16-2009, 12:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
On what basis would you call him the most competent?
And that is exactly what the discussion should be about.
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      09-16-2009, 12:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by lib View Post
Just a small criticism... Comparing the army to a day-care doesn't help your argument.

I realize (hope) that's not what you intended but that's how it came out
Focus on the health care - how does day care factor in? And even that is a bit misleading. Take MediCare, the actual services are provided by non-government doctors, it's the billing that's government run. Unlike our Military which receives services from a government run institution.
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      09-16-2009, 12:32 PM   #27
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Yes, things like the military and police must be run by the government or else we suffer from free riders and the system collapses; there is no alternative. Health care does not suffer from that problem, meaning that it does not need to be run by the government. (If anything, we would suffer from free riders if it is run by the government, but I won't get into that). So the question is, why should we let the government run healthcare when it could be handled privately, as it is now?

Since you mentioned the military, let me ask you this: do you think the government is doing a good job managing our money in regards to the military? I wouldn't say so, not when they're spending part of the defense budget on ice breakers, while giving our troops the cheapest body armor so that they can pocket the rest of the money.

So what makes you think it's going to be any different with healthcare? We're going to give our money to the government in the form of higher taxes, they're going to allocate the bare minimum to healthcare, and they will pocket the change. If you doubt that then you are naive about human nature.

I've lived under government run healthcare. In fact, the reason I came to this country was to get treated for Burkitt's Lymphoma 15 years ago, because there was no quality treatment in Europe, let alone my native Bulgaria. I can not for the life of me understand why Americans suddenly think nationalized healthcare is a good idea; maybe it's because they haven't experienced it.
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      09-16-2009, 12:35 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Septro View Post
Really? I mean Realllly? You're going to try and defend Van Jones.. Have you read the actual EastBay article yourself or you just linking to 'Pulitzer' winning news sites? Its his own dam words he stated being a Communist. He's never written or disavowed that ethos. (source)
From the source you pasted:

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Jones began transforming his politics and work in the aftermath of a crisis that coincided with the primary election in March 2000
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Although he had spent many childhood summers in "sweaty black churches," and in college had discovered the black liberation theology that reinterprets the Christ story as an anticolonial struggle, he had pulled away from spirituality during his communist days.
"During his communist days" indicates past tense.
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      09-16-2009, 01:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maswastage View Post
Yes, things like the military and police must be run by the government or else we suffer from free riders and the system collapses; there is no alternative. Health care does not suffer from that problem, meaning that it does not need to be run by the government. (If anything, we would suffer from free riders if it is run by the government, but I won't get into that). So the question is, why should we let the government run healthcare when it could be handled privately, as it is now?

Since you mentioned the military, let me ask you this: do you think the government is doing a good job managing our money in regards to the military? I wouldn't say so, not when they're spending part of the defense budget on ice breakers, while giving our troops the cheapest body armor so that they can pocket the rest of the money.

So what makes you think it's going to be any different with healthcare? We're going to give our money to the government in the form of higher taxes, they're going to allocate the bare minimum to healthcare, and they will pocket the change. If you doubt that then you are naive about human nature.

I've lived under government run healthcare. In fact, the reason I came to this country was to get treated for Burkitt's Lymphoma 15 years ago, because there was no quality treatment in Europe, let alone my native Bulgaria. I can not for the life of me understand why Americans suddenly think nationalized healthcare is a good idea; maybe it's because they haven't experienced it.
I haven't lived with government run healthcare. It's good to hear a report from someone who has lived under and actually experienced both.

My concerns about government getting into our healthcare are manifold.
  • The government is a terrible manager.
  • It would give the government even more power over people's lives than they have already taken.
  • If the system became a single-payer system as seems to be the goal, then it would be necessary for government to decide who lives and who dies to a much greater extent than they do now.
  • Government run healthcare may be implemented at a state level. The federal government is a usurper of power, and this must end or our Constitutional Republic is doomed to take the path of tyranny.

Certainly I could think of more points if I were not working on other things right now.
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      09-16-2009, 01:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Septro View Post
Van Jones (the previous Green Jobs Czar) is a communist. He never has renounced it. (source)

Cat Sussten, the current Regulatory Czar, proposed giving legal standing to animals in human courts of law. (source)

John Holdren, the current Science Czar, supports forced abortion and population control. (source)

Like I said, there are crazies to the left and right of me, unfortunately the crazies on the left are making/advising policy while the ones on the right make for good videos. You do the math.

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      09-16-2009, 07:04 PM   #31
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See more photos here.

I have no idea how many people this is, but it is a good size crowd. Looking at the pictures, it looks like they had a good time.
Attached Images
  
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      09-16-2009, 08:20 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruxp View Post


"During his communist days" indicates past tense.
So what? Why is it that we find morally objectionable the fact that someone subscribes(d?) to a socialist philosophy but perfectly acceptable that someone else believes there is a invisible mystic being that controls everything?

Why are we more concerned about a person who has differing views on governing people then with a person who communicates with this mystic being in order to make decisions?
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      09-16-2009, 08:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MteK View Post
So what? Why is it that we find morally objectionable the fact that someone subscribes(d?) to a socialist philosophy but perfectly acceptable that someone else believes there is a invisible mystic being that controls everything?

Why are we more concerned about a person who has differing views on governing people then with a person who communicates with this mystic being in order to make decisions?
Personal religion doesn't - or shouldn't, at least - affect someone's style of governance in a secular democracy. Whereas belief in system of governance obviously does, by definition.

Having said that, I don't think it's a big deal. I was just pointing out that it was in the past.
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      09-16-2009, 08:33 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
See more photos here.

I have no idea how many people this is, but it is a good size crowd. Looking at the pictures, it looks like they had a good time.
Looks like a great time, if only they knew why they were there
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      09-16-2009, 08:43 PM   #35
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Whereas belief in system of governance obviously does, by definition.

.
But what if that person's position has nothing to do with defining our system of governance? It has no relevance on his ability to do his job, so it becomes a moral objection, an irrelevant issue.

Just like being a christian and being president.
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      09-16-2009, 09:48 PM   #36
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Tea baggers... lol.
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      09-17-2009, 05:03 PM   #37
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=240_1253053461

Shocking...
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      09-17-2009, 05:14 PM   #38
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Why is is shocking or laughable that a lot of people get their news from the most popular news network?

Given that the other networks have completely ignored stories in the last few weeks that have led to the resignation of one White House official, the reassignment of an NEA official, and votes by both houses of Congress to defund the organization that the president once worked for, these people are much better informed for watching Fox than they would be from reading the NY Times.
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      09-17-2009, 05:24 PM   #39
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What is so shocking?

Is it that the people in your little video have been suckered into Fox News for their information rather than suckered into CNN, MSNBC, etc. for their information?

They are all lousy. Even Bloomberg and CNBC are terribly biased to manipulate the public perception. All of them are little better than Pravda. They should all perish for their disservice. At least on the radio or the internet there is a wealth of ideas and viewpoints. On these mass media sources, you don't get the news. What you get is the days spin. And what they choose to show isn't the greatest offense. The worst of it is what they choose to omit. When they do cover a subject, it is so blatant and subtle in their bias simultaneously, and the piece is repeated endlessly as if there isn't anything else worth a mention. The television is like a hypnotist's tool.

The mass media is a total failure in delivering news.
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      09-17-2009, 05:26 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpirate87 View Post
Why is is shocking or laughable that a lot of people get their news from the most popular news network?

Given that the other networks have completely ignored stories in the last few weeks that have led to the resignation of one White House official, the reassignment of an NEA official, and votes by both houses of Congress to defund the organization that the president once worked for, these people are much better informed for watching Fox than they would be from reading the NY Times.
I said it was "shocking" in an obvious attempt at sarcasm that went over your head it seems. These are the same people who didn't even know what they were even talking about.

It's just a bunch of ignorant people who are all riled up and are very impressionable. This is seen in the video that started this thread. These are the same people who didn't even know what a czar was, or the fact that a Republican started it. They only rely on one source of media to get all their information, and can't be bothered to think outside of their Fox Box.

To sum it up, these people are sheep, and Faux News is their shepard.
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      09-17-2009, 05:35 PM   #41
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I said it was "shocking" in an obvious attempt at sarcasm that went over your head it seems. These are the same people who didn't even know what they were even talking about.

It's just a bunch of ignorant people who are all riled up and are very impressionable. This is seen in the video that started this thread. These are the same people who didn't even know what a czar was, or the fact that a Republican started it.

To sum it up, these people are sheep, and Faux News is their shepard.
In reality most people at any political event have difficulties expressing their beliefs and being articulate when someone shoves a microphone in their face. Given your apparent inability to be articulate when you have the time to write your thoughts out, I would think you would be able to understand that.

There are many different jobs labeled "czars." The issue currently is the expansion of the number of those in the current administration that are not subject to Senate confirmation. The original "czar," the Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, has always been subject to Senate confirmation.

I notice how you have completely ignored the point that Fox viewers are better informed on current issues than NY Times readers.
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