BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-09-2009, 05:26 PM   #1
armyav8tor
n1smo
 
armyav8tor's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 1,447
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
AutoX with stock M3

My second time at the AutoX, still need to perfect my autox driving but I'm seeing flashes of brilliance. The M3 is not an autox car but it can still hold its own and its all about having fun. Here’s the video of my last lap.



Here's the scoresheet: Click

This SCAA AutoX is held at Hunt Army Stagefield right next to Fort Rucker, AL. If you are in the area, the event is held every 2nd Sunday of the month. $20 for SCAA members, $25 for military personnel, and $30 for non SCAA members.
armyav8tor is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-10-2009, 04:45 PM   #2
TLud
Colonel
 
TLud's Avatar
 
Drives: '12 Golf R
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas

Posts: 2,280
iTrader: (3)

Looks like fun. That Datsun 510 had some impressive results. What kind of mods was he running?
__________________
'09 Interlagos Blue E92 M3 (sold to a good home)
TLud is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-10-2009, 05:48 PM   #3
armyav8tor
n1smo
 
armyav8tor's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 1,447
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
Looks like fun. That Datsun 510 had some impressive results. What kind of mods was he running?
The Datsun went around the course like a go-cart. I didn't get to talk to him to find out what mods he was running but the car rolled up in a trailer and ran in the EP class.
armyav8tor is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-11-2009, 09:17 AM   #4
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,927
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
... The M3 is not an autox car but it can still hold its own and its all about having fun. ...

The M3 is a fantastic AX car, but it's woefully misclassed in the SCCA scheme of things. The SCCA probably needs one or two more classes between AS and SS to fairly class the current M3 and a number of other cars that don't belong in a class with Z06s and Vipers.

If BMW would just give us 1.75-degrees of negative camber up front without aftermarket plates, it would be killer right out of the box. It's great driving at AX and much more fun to live with than my all out ESP Mustang that I had in the 1990s.

BTW, your video link seems broken.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-11-2009, 12:52 PM   #5
armyav8tor
n1smo
 
armyav8tor's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 1,447
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
The M3 is a fantastic AX car, but it's woefully misclassed in the SCCA scheme of things. The SCCA probably needs one or two more classes between AS and SS to fairly class the current M3 and a number of other cars that don't belong in a class with Z06s and Vipers.

If BMW would just give us 1.75-degrees of negative camber up front without aftermarket plates, it would be killer right out of the box. It's great driving at AX and much more fun to live with than my all out ESP Mustang that I had in the 1990s.

BTW, your video link seems broken.

Dave
Try this: Click

It goes around the cones fine, my point was that the M3 is much more capable than what an autox can throw at it. I mean, topping out in 2nd gear is not exactly what it was designed for. A little Miata or a go cart is more appropiate for autox. I don't go to the autox for competition, I go there to have a little fun. It'll hold me over till I hit the real tracks.
armyav8tor is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-11-2009, 02:45 PM   #6
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,927
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
Try this: Click

It goes around the cones fine, my point was that the M3 is much more capable than what an autox can throw at it. I mean, topping out in 2nd gear is not exactly what it was designed for. A little Miata or a go cart is more appropiate for autox. I don't go to the autox for competition, I go there to have a little fun. It'll hold me over till I hit the real tracks.
Yeah that link works. You need to tidy things up a bunch. Practice and concentration will clean things up and make you a lot more competitive.

Just like in any other "racing", classification is key, to get like cars into the right groupings. If you can do that, then the fun begins whether you're in HS or A-Mod. Hustling big cars like the M3, Mustangs and Z06s around the track is very educational and fun. Doing the same course in an A-Mod or kart is entirely different and fun, but different.

Since we drive big, heavy cars on the street, I think of AX is a skill that will directly benefit your day-to-day driving. So will the track and I like doing that. Both have technical skills that must be mastered to be competitive. I am competitive by nature, but I autocross for fun, but winning is part of my fun. Racing the BMW CCA classes gives me a fair chance to win. I did the SCCA thing for many years and selected my cars partly based on their class competitiveness. OTOH, I bought this M3 purely because I love the car.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-16-2009, 07:37 AM   #7
armyav8tor
n1smo
 
armyav8tor's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 1,447
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
If by “you need to tidy things up a bunch” you meant I was drifting too much then that was the whole point of going to the autox for me. There is no better place to perfect the “loose” driving style than at an autox where there is little risk in damaging the car. To be able to control the car and to drive it fast just over the limit of traction is a very important skill IMO, as it allows you to safely bring the car back into the limit of traction without losing time. To have a place where I can intentionally put the car into those situations and then to practice working through it is the best part of an autox and the only reason I go because I think cone racing is gay. The guys that ran the event were shocked when I told them I’ve never autox before.

As far as the M3 goes, it is the best car I’ve ever owned. The way I made other people look stupid on the Nurburgring is a testament to the M3’s power and handling. As I have said before in other threads, I’ve been passed 2 times in the M3. One was a heavily modified M3 CSL, the other was a 997 GT3RS. Of course it is all driver dependent but for me this car gives you the confidence to drive it the way it was meant to be driven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Yeah that link works. You need to tidy things up a bunch. Practice and concentration will clean things up and make you a lot more competitive.

Just like in any other "racing", classification is key, to get like cars into the right groupings. If you can do that, then the fun begins whether you're in HS or A-Mod. Hustling big cars like the M3, Mustangs and Z06s around the track is very educational and fun. Doing the same course in an A-Mod or kart is entirely different and fun, but different.

Since we drive big, heavy cars on the street, I think of AX is a skill that will directly benefit your day-to-day driving. So will the track and I like doing that. Both have technical skills that must be mastered to be competitive. I am competitive by nature, but I autocross for fun, but winning is part of my fun. Racing the BMW CCA classes gives me a fair chance to win. I did the SCCA thing for many years and selected my cars partly based on their class competitiveness. OTOH, I bought this M3 purely because I love the car.

Dave
armyav8tor is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-16-2009, 01:25 PM   #8
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,927
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
If by “you need to tidy things up a bunch” you meant I was drifting too much then that was the whole point of going to the autox for me. There is no better place to perfect the “loose” driving style than at an autox where there is little risk in damaging the car. To be able to control the car and to drive it fast just over the limit of traction is a very important skill IMO, as it allows you to safely bring the car back into the limit of traction without losing time. To have a place where I can intentionally put the car into those situations and then to practice working through it is the best part of an autox and the only reason I go because I think cone racing is gay. The guys that ran the event were shocked when I told them I’ve never autox before.
Learning to drive clean will benefit you on the track also. If you can drive clean at the limit, then you'll surely go over the limit and practice your car control. You'll never be fast on the track or AX without cleaning up your line.

The key to fast AX time is keeping the tires at a high single-digit slip angle all the way round. Outside it looks smooth, but inside it feels like your on the verge of losing it all the time and you WILL need to correct and catch mistakes quickly. That's harder to do than throwing the car around and saying, "I'm here for car control practice."

Your assertion that we all need car control practice is valid. If you get a chance, get on a wet skidpad. You work with much higher slip angles and if you do it with an instructor onboard, they can turn DSC on and off mid-turn and grab the hand brake just when you near the limit. That IS great practice and can help you save yourself at both low and high speed.

Calling AX "gay" when you don't have the skill yet to win is kind of weak. Track racing requires very much the same skills. Both Lucid and I noticed your missed apexes at the 'ring and you kind of dismissed our comments then. You have great talent and it's easy to see in your videos, but you need to get some proper lessons and work on your technique to refine your skills. You'll increase your margin for error and increase your speed at the same time. The speeds that you drive at really demand that you enhance your skills. You've got great raw talent, but you need to refine it, IMHO.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-16-2009, 02:11 PM   #9
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Calling AX "gay" when you don't have the skill yet to win is kind of weak. Track racing requires very much the same skills. Both Lucid and I noticed your missed apexes at the 'ring and you kind of dismissed our comments then. You have great talent and it's easy to see in your videos, but you need to get some proper lessons and work on your technique to refine your skills. You'll increase your margin for error and increase your speed at the same time. The speeds that you drive at really demand that you enhance your skills. You've got great raw talent, but you need to refine it, IMHO.
I don't recall commenting on armyav8tor's driving on the ring as I don't think I watched that video. But, as a friendly observation, I will say that armyav8tor seems to have a bit too much confidence in his driving. Confidence is a great thing to have on the track, but too much of it will most likely get you in trouble. Passing people who are tooling around a public circuit is one thing (although I assume there must be people who know what they are doing on a public Ring session as well, but based on the Ring videos I've seen, they seem to be in a rather small minority), driving with experienced drivers who are also in fast cars is another. Anyone who starts going a bit fast inevitably probably thinks he/she is good until he/she sees someone who is much better/faster. There are plenty of fast amateur drivers out there. The more eye opening event is understanding why the other person is faster and how little you actually know...

Having said this, I also tool around in AX and drift around cones for fun because I personally am not there to compete (regardless, I do not see the point of associating it with anyone's sexual orientation), but what happens on a fast sweeper is not as similar to what happens around cones at low speed as some folks believe IMO.

And, yes, the E92 M3 is an amazingly well balanced car that is surprisingly easy to drive on the limit...
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-16-2009, 06:37 PM   #10
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,927
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I don't recall commenting on armyav8tor's driving on the ring as I don't think I watched that video....

Having said this, I also tool around in AX and drift around cones for fun because I personally am not there to compete (regardless, I do not see the point of associating it with anyone's sexual orientation), but what happens on a fast sweeper is not as similar to what happens around cones at low speed as some folks believe IMO.

And, yes, the E92 M3 is an amazingly well balanced car that is surprisingly easy to drive on the limit...
Sorry, I was going from memory and thought that you commented on armyav8tor's driving. It was one of our experienced track rats. Oh well, sorry.

I've not exceedingly experienced at track, but I've done several days in total in Formula Fords and M-cars (ten-days at racing speeds). The fastest I've felt is in a FF at 110 mph in a decreasing radius turn where you use trailing throttle oversteer to make it around the last part of the corner. The uphill esses at VIR are like walking on marbles, but that's only 110-120 in M-cars (for me).

That said, taking decreasing radius sweeper in an AX at 60+ trying to gain .3-second is pretty darn challenging. Yeah, there's no wall to hit, but the pressure is high. I suppose, trying to qualify on the front row of a competitive track event would have that same added pressure element. Going around any circuit "fast" is not the same as going around the same circuit trying for the fastest time in a competition. Racing wheel-to-wheel is an entirely new added element, of which I've never partaken.

we all agree that the M3 is great.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-16-2009, 07:14 PM   #11
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Sorry, I was going from memory and thought that you commented on armyav8tor's driving. It was one of our experienced track rats. Oh well, sorry.

I've not exceedingly experienced at track, but I've done several days in total in Formula Fords and M-cars (ten-days at racing speeds). The fastest I've felt is in a FF at 110 mph in a decreasing radius turn where you use trailing throttle oversteer to make it around the last part of the corner. The uphill esses at VIR are like walking on marbles, but that's only 110-120 in M-cars (for me).

That said, taking decreasing radius sweeper in an AX at 60+ trying to gain .3-second is pretty darn challenging. Yeah, there's no wall to hit, but the pressure is high. I suppose, trying to qualify on the front row of a competitive track event would have that same added pressure element. Going around any circuit "fast" is not the same as going around the same circuit trying for the fastest time in a competition. Racing wheel-to-wheel is an entirely new added element, of which I've never partaken.

we all agree that the M3 is great.

Dave
No worries Dave. It's all good. And, I don't mean to say that AX is not challenging. I know it is if you want to win and there are a bunch of competent drivers in your class. It's just that the nature of the challenge is somewhat different, that's all. There are still many similarities/transferrable skills though. Cheers and peace...
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2009, 12:44 PM   #12
drivendriver
Second Lieutenant
 
drivendriver's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 E83 X3
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA

Posts: 269
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
As far as the M3 goes, it is the best car I’ve ever owned. The way I made other people look stupid on the Nurburgring is a testament to the M3’s power and handling. As I have said before in other threads, I’ve been passed 2 times in the M3. One was a heavily modified M3 CSL, the other was a 997 GT3RS. Of course it is all driver dependent but for me this car gives you the confidence to drive it the way it was meant to be driven.
I know the feeling. I posted something very similar a couple of days ago after spending the week-end at the track.
drivendriver is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:40 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST