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      08-03-2009, 08:38 PM   #23
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M3 is in another league however you rationalize it IMO. evos and STis are boy racer cars and made like crap and the companies do not back them. BTW, I owned a '08 STi.
+1 I owned and loved my TurboXS Stage 4 2003 WRX...but its no ///M3.
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      08-03-2009, 08:51 PM   #24
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m3... i know u care about torque... the flatness of the m3 torque curve makes it so easy to control at the limit. you will enjoy it more on the track and i truly believe it will make u a more capable driver that doesn't require the safety of AWD to feel confident to tail slide it without kissing a wall.
Another thing to mention. You might not drive more than 5k a year but having a more capable DD might spark you to take road trips on some mountain or valley near you. You will rack up miles on the m3 bc you will enjoy it off the track.

Why would u shut that door?

ps. bmw = punani magnet ;p
Good point, but i'm not sure how his wife will feel about the M3 picking up punani. Unless the M3 also comes with a good divorce lawyer.

I think Dr.G is right. Buy the M3, and you can also enjoy it off the track.
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      08-04-2009, 11:39 AM   #25
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Buy an Evo X if you don't really give importance to refinement. Also, the Evo would be the better choice to pick if you're into serious modding.

I wanted awesome performance without any compromises of being a daily driver, and so I got my M3. You have to remember that the M3 is about twice the price. The Evo may be the better 'bang for the buck' in the performance department, but the M3 is the better overall car.

Bottom line is that if you're not going to appreciate an M3 for what it's all about, then get the Evo X instead.
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      08-04-2009, 12:35 PM   #26
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Seems like you want just raw performance. If that is the case, the M3 won't suit you. You'll get the Evo, put the listed mods in, but in the end you'll keep adding mods, more than you ever thought. Then in the end you'll have a street legal time attack car. Then you'll decide if that's where you wanted to land.
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      08-04-2009, 01:32 PM   #27
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i'll play devils advocate.

since i own 2 evos, and own an evo speed shop, i'll give you the evo perspective.

1. evo will hold its value far better then the M3. granted in 5 years the m3 might still be more expensive, but %wise, evo wins garanteed. for example, my car is 5 years old, 83k miles, beaten to death, and it will still fetch 20k. i paid 29 for it (32ttl). there is a evo 9 selling for 26k on evom with 28k miles. new it was maybe 32-34

you can buy a 3 year old m3 for half of its MSRP with less then 30k miles. heck, there are 1 year old m3s reselling for into the 40's with less then 10k miles. thats 15-20k depreciation in one year. you can buy an evo for that depreciation alone (used one of course). since your looking for a used one, obviously that huge hit doesn't apply though.

2. top end power on a completely stock evo vs m3, the m3 will win. but even a basic bolt on evo will easily pull the m3 from a dig, to highway speeds. and if you do a few more mods like mine, it will make the m3 look like a joke. it would take serious money to make the m3 remotely close in power to what a good bolt on evo will do.

3. the evo on the track is where it shines. with a decently modded evo, youll take most everything out there. i daily drive mine, have a spare set of wheels i throw in the trunk along with some track pads. when i get to the track i change them out and drive the crap out of it. i've never had a BMW pass me. in fact, with my currently power level, nothing has passed me includng a ferrari speed challenge car (driven by the guys wife though). modded C6 Z06 on slicks, etc etc etc... and thats with my car de-tuned about 80-100whp for the track. on the highway i can walk 600cc bikes.

video proof:




seriously, if your looking for a track car, the new m3 is going to cost you WAAAAY more to come close to what you can do with an evo for cheap.

case in point, my second evo i got for free (about 1400 in labor for trade on the rolling shell). i've got a 2.3L motor with a cosworth head, built tranny and transfercase, some 275 hoosier R6's some hawk DTC-70 pads, some race seats and safety equipment, and now i've got a fully built NASA TTU car that i'm going to try and set some records around here with. granted this is going to be a track only car (trailered), it will be plenty fast.


for daily driving though, a track prepped evo is uncomfortable. my wife and i put a deposit on the e90 m3, but took it back because we didn't want a second car payment with the economy in the trash. and now i'll be looking for the turbo m3 when the next gens come out. that will be mod-able like an evo, i promise. the m3 for us will be a street car that is more comfortable, nicer interior and still cool. but its not nearly as fast as a good evo
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      08-04-2009, 05:49 PM   #28
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If you don't care about looks or prestige the Evo is the ticket. It is a special car that is respected and driven by true ENTHUSIASTS, not badge poseurs (ummm see any around here? ) My 2005 Evo 8 is the best car "overall" that I have ever owned. Now with 103k+ daily-freeway-driven miles on it, I may be replacing it -- although nothing for sale right now comes close in terms of performance for the buck. The Evo X is OK but needs a bit more HP for the increased weight. Mods can fix that.

In regard to track performance, yep, the Evo is a demon. But you mentioned you were more likely to spin in an M3. That tells me you may still be working on your car control skills (we all should!) The Evo will mask a lack of skills better than a RWD M3 with the driver aids turned off. But that doesn't mean the Evo can defy the laws of physics. I have personally seen overconfident Evo drivers (the car makes you feel invincible) get into trouble on the track and not know what to do. I have seen an Evo roll at high speed and the results were scary.

The Evo makes a great daily driver -- mine has been perfectly reliable for 103K miles (it's stock engine btw) and I ask a lot of it every day. But you still need to respect it. Step on the gas and steer -- very true -- it's a VERY EASY CAR TO DRIVE FAST. Just know the implications of that. Going to the track should be about improving yourself, learning to slide and recover, having fun and making friends... not just having the fastest lap times.

The Evo community is a really good one and "we" still wave to each other on the street. No badge poseurs here.
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      08-04-2009, 05:54 PM   #29
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      08-04-2009, 07:31 PM   #30
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Something similar came up that I made a thread for here

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284347
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      08-05-2009, 10:23 AM   #31
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I guess my main concern is..which car will be more fun to drive?

Please no replies like "It's a BMW" or "Evos are so ugly"

During my test drive of the M3, I never came away with the feeling that it is more fun than an AWD turbo car. But the build quality was awesome. No creaks or noises. I also drove a stock Evo X but I need to know how a modded one would feel.
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      08-05-2009, 10:45 AM   #32
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both cars are amazingly fun...the spike of the turbo on evo is a blast...but i find rwd more fun..unless ur good with the e-brake
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      08-05-2009, 01:39 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by NoSoupForU View Post
I guess my main concern is..which car will be more fun to drive?

Please no replies like "It's a BMW" or "Evos are so ugly"

During my test drive of the M3, I never came away with the feeling that it is more fun than an AWD turbo car. But the build quality was awesome. No creaks or noises. I also drove a stock Evo X but I need to know how a modded one would feel.
I came from an 04 STi and this is way more fun to drive. RWD is more fun than AWD IMHO.
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      08-05-2009, 02:56 PM   #34
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I came from an 04 STi and this is way more fun to drive. RWD is more fun than AWD IMHO.
Small world. I drive an 04 STi right now.
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      08-05-2009, 04:20 PM   #35
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Small world. I drive an 04 STi right now.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVED my STi (had it 5 years), but this car is from a different planet IMHO.
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      08-05-2009, 04:24 PM   #36
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Don't get me wrong, I LOVED my STi (had it 5 years), but this car is from a different planet IMHO.
Did you track both cars? If so, how would you compare them?
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      08-05-2009, 09:26 PM   #37
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I guess my main concern is..which car will be more fun to drive?

Everyone's definition of "fun" is different. How "fun" do you consider your 335i? What makes it "not fun"? The same factors may apply to the M3.

My Evo is fun because I can pretty much do anything with it and not care. I can outrun people because it is so nimble and capable. The C63 is fun because it makes loud noises and I can blow people off the road with it. For what I do every day, battling traffic and the inattentive drivers on the freeway, I prefer the Evo. Slice and dice, avoid debris, drive through East LA, intimidate people with my BIG WING (lol) the Evo kicks butt. You're only driving your car 4 miles a day back and forth to work, remember. Is the M3 worth $30K more to do that? It really needs to tug at your heart and mind to justify that IMO, and if you're asking the question... well. I think if you have a 335i, the cars are a bit too similar and you could get bored sooner. Just some thoughts......
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      08-06-2009, 04:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
If you don't care about looks or prestige the Evo is the ticket. It is a special car that is respected and driven by true ENTHUSIASTS, not badge poseurs (ummm see any around here? ) My 2005 Evo 8 is the best car "overall" that I have ever owned. Now with 103k+ daily-freeway-driven miles on it, I may be replacing it -- although nothing for sale right now comes close in terms of performance for the buck. The Evo X is OK but needs a bit more HP for the increased weight. Mods can fix that.

In regard to track performance, yep, the Evo is a demon. But you mentioned you were more likely to spin in an M3. That tells me you may still be working on your car control skills (we all should!) The Evo will mask a lack of skills better than a RWD M3 with the driver aids turned off. But that doesn't mean the Evo can defy the laws of physics. I have personally seen overconfident Evo drivers (the car makes you feel invincible) get into trouble on the track and not know what to do. I have seen an Evo roll at high speed and the results were scary.

The Evo makes a great daily driver -- mine has been perfectly reliable for 103K miles (it's stock engine btw) and I ask a lot of it every day. But you still need to respect it. Step on the gas and steer -- very true -- it's a VERY EASY CAR TO DRIVE FAST. Just know the implications of that. Going to the track should be about improving yourself, learning to slide and recover, having fun and making friends... not just having the fastest lap times.

The Evo community is a really good one and "we" still wave to each other on the street. No badge poseurs here.
Some M3 guys didn't get an M3 because of its badge. Honestly, it's truly a very special high performance vehicle all the way from its high-revving V8 to the way it handles and feels while driving. The M3 is a true driver's car for the enthusiast and car FANATIC like myself .

You're right that an Evo is for the true driving enthusiast. And it's a fact that I will miss the Evo I used to have, but the M3 I chose to replace it with is here with me for a reason. I barely got any options on my M3, and it's still very special in its own way. One thing's for sure, the M3 is not all about fast. If one wanted fast at a similar price level, the GT-R would be the choice of course.
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      08-06-2009, 04:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kevinD View Post
i'll play devils advocate.

since i own 2 evos, and own an evo speed shop, i'll give you the evo perspective.

1. evo will hold its value far better then the M3. granted in 5 years the m3 might still be more expensive, but %wise, evo wins garanteed. for example, my car is 5 years old, 83k miles, beaten to death, and it will still fetch 20k. i paid 29 for it (32ttl). there is a evo 9 selling for 26k on evom with 28k miles. new it was maybe 32-34

you can buy a 3 year old m3 for half of its MSRP with less then 30k miles. heck, there are 1 year old m3s reselling for into the 40's with less then 10k miles. thats 15-20k depreciation in one year. you can buy an evo for that depreciation alone (used one of course). since your looking for a used one, obviously that huge hit doesn't apply though.

2. top end power on a completely stock evo vs m3, the m3 will win. but even a basic bolt on evo will easily pull the m3 from a dig, to highway speeds. and if you do a few more mods like mine, it will make the m3 look like a joke. it would take serious money to make the m3 remotely close in power to what a good bolt on evo will do.

3. the evo on the track is where it shines. with a decently modded evo, youll take most everything out there. i daily drive mine, have a spare set of wheels i throw in the trunk along with some track pads. when i get to the track i change them out and drive the crap out of it. i've never had a BMW pass me. in fact, with my currently power level, nothing has passed me includng a ferrari speed challenge car (driven by the guys wife though). modded C6 Z06 on slicks, etc etc etc... and thats with my car de-tuned about 80-100whp for the track. on the highway i can walk 600cc bikes.

video proof:




seriously, if your looking for a track car, the new m3 is going to cost you WAAAAY more to come close to what you can do with an evo for cheap.

case in point, my second evo i got for free (about 1400 in labor for trade on the rolling shell). i've got a 2.3L motor with a cosworth head, built tranny and transfercase, some 275 hoosier R6's some hawk DTC-70 pads, some race seats and safety equipment, and now i've got a fully built NASA TTU car that i'm going to try and set some records around here with. granted this is going to be a track only car (trailered), it will be plenty fast.


for daily driving though, a track prepped evo is uncomfortable. my wife and i put a deposit on the e90 m3, but took it back because we didn't want a second car payment with the economy in the trash. and now i'll be looking for the turbo m3 when the next gens come out. that will be mod-able like an evo, i promise. the m3 for us will be a street car that is more comfortable, nicer interior and still cool. but its not nearly as fast as a good evo
ahhhhhhh Kevin! I still gotta defend my M3 since I've moved away from the Evo. hahahehe

I agree all the way that the Evo will always be faster with mods, but you gotta admit that overall, the M3 is a different beast. If anyone compares 'bang for the buck' in the performance department, the Evo will always win of course......But that's not what the M3 is intended to be about.

The M3 is intended to bring the perfect balance of power, handling, refinement, quality, and comfort all together (And I'm not gonna mention practicality since the Evo has that, and I'm not gonna argue about its quality either since Japanese build quality is superb). The current M3 is one of the most, if not THE most, perfectly well-balanced performance car ever.

And back to the Evo being faster with mods.......Don't make me jealous now Kevin.
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      08-06-2009, 11:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSoupForU View Post
Did you track both cars? If so, how would you compare them?
I'm not a big track guy - don't have the time really. I think in terms of initial investment to make them track worthy, it is very much the same - brakes. Many people are fine in the m3 without touching the system, as is the case with the STi. Others will boil fluid and warp rotors - so it is really a question of your skill level and aggressiveness.

The STi understeers in stock form, whereas the M3 is much more neutral and easy to rotate. A lot of track guys put square setups on for better rotation. You can probably achieve this with spacers as well. Although I wouldn't say this is needed in the least.

The stock STi suspension is a decent compromise for a car that must be driven on the street. The normal and sport modes for EDC will work well on a variety of surfaces.

The acceleration in the M3, and the engine in general, is really amazing. You'll find yourself (depending on the track) in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th for extended periods of time, just working the engine from 5-8.4k. Contrast this with the STi and you will be doing a lot of shifting.

The steering feel on the M3 is amazing compared to the STi and it gets better the faster or the harder you push the car. It feels like a 3600lb kart...if that makes any sense ; )

Just some random-ish thoughts to give you an idea. Hope that helps!
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      08-07-2009, 12:23 PM   #41
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I think you need to define what you are looking in a "track" car. Evos are fun and reliable when modded properly. They will also turn in fantastic laptimes. RWD will always be more fun than AWD. I have a 2006 Evo that runs great, made more power and turns way faster laptimes than my old school 1990 Supra turbo but there was no mistaking the AWD for RWD drive no matter how quick the steering ratio is on the Evo.

So if laptimes are important, get the Evo, but if having a fun overall track experience, I would suggest staying with a RWD.

If you plan on doing any sort of freeway driving, the 5sp Evo runs 3400-3500 rpms at 80mph. The noise gets bothersome if youre driving 2-3hrs to and from the track.

Evo get horrible gas mileage for 4 cyl turbo.

In one year the economy has accelerated the depreciation of semi-luxury sports cars. Not so much for the Evo/STi. Im not quite sure if the following years will follow trend but what is the value of the M3 once it falls out of warranty?
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      08-08-2009, 12:58 AM   #42
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I'm not a big track guy - don't have the time really. I think in terms of initial investment to make them track worthy, it is very much the same - brakes. Many people are fine in the m3 without touching the system, as is the case with the STi. Others will boil fluid and warp rotors - so it is really a question of your skill level and aggressiveness.

The STi understeers in stock form, whereas the M3 is much more neutral and easy to rotate. A lot of track guys put square setups on for better rotation. You can probably achieve this with spacers as well. Although I wouldn't say this is needed in the least.

The stock STi suspension is a decent compromise for a car that must be driven on the street. The normal and sport modes for EDC will work well on a variety of surfaces.

The acceleration in the M3, and the engine in general, is really amazing. You'll find yourself (depending on the track) in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th for extended periods of time, just working the engine from 5-8.4k. Contrast this with the STi and you will be doing a lot of shifting.

The steering feel on the M3 is amazing compared to the STi and it gets better the faster or the harder you push the car. It feels like a 3600lb kart...if that makes any sense ; )

Just some random-ish thoughts to give you an idea. Hope that helps!
I'm glad you brought up the steering feel and weight of the M3. And you're right.....The M3 feels so light and nimble on its feet the harder you push it. The steering wheel is so rich also. It's not as darty as the Evo's, but still extremely responsive nevertheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinturbozs View Post
I think you need to define what you are looking in a "track" car. Evos are fun and reliable when modded properly. They will also turn in fantastic laptimes. RWD will always be more fun than AWD. I have a 2006 Evo that runs great, made more power and turns way faster laptimes than my old school 1990 Supra turbo but there was no mistaking the AWD for RWD drive no matter how quick the steering ratio is on the Evo.

So if laptimes are important, get the Evo, but if having a fun overall track experience, I would suggest staying with a RWD.

If you plan on doing any sort of freeway driving, the 5sp Evo runs 3400-3500 rpms at 80mph. The noise gets bothersome if youre driving 2-3hrs to and from the track.

Evo get horrible gas mileage for 4 cyl turbo.
In one year the economy has accelerated the depreciation of semi-luxury sports cars. Not so much for the Evo/STi. Im not quite sure if the following years will follow trend but what is the value of the M3 once it falls out of warranty?
The gas mileage on my Evo was so much better than my M3. I really miss that part. Oh well, you can't have everything.
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      08-08-2009, 10:30 AM   #43
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i still think he should get a miata
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      08-08-2009, 12:43 PM   #44
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Coming from M cars owned an 09 sti and now driving a C63 heres my opinion.

If you are looking into a fun drive M3 isn't on the same level as the moded evo. The evo will handle better, feel faster, sound faster, stop faster and look faster. Evos can be made really fast really easy and you will eat a m3 around a track.

Now overall M3 is a better car for the following reasons. M3 is not only beautiful but it is also very fast and responsive. You can also pull some wonderful powerslide even if you ain't the greatest driver in the world. You can pull up to the nicest restraunt in town and feel like you worth a million dollars. M3 is also a better church car in case you actually go to the church.

It all comes down to what your needs are. I had a moded 09 sti and sold it quickly cause C63 is just too good to resist. I considered the M3 too but it just isn't as much fun to drive.

Heres my reasons for not getting a M3

1st the engine has no torque at all, feels just like the old S54 with more HP. Lack of torque makes it annoying when you are pushing the car. (and i think most m3 owners want more torque especially if they owned a car with one before. Now if they tell you about the flat torque curve being better thats just a way to make M3 owners feel better)

2nd the interior is nice and high tech but it feels a bit cold. everytime i get into a C63 i get a very warm feeling. (ok thats very personal)

3rd M3's brake sucks if you are gonna track the car. I know quiet a few people having to do BBK upgrade cause stock brake just isn't designed for laps and laps of consistant hard driving and braking. It also depends on which kinda of track you are on. My local track is a short 1.2mile circuit with tight corners and is really really hard on brakes.

4th M3 is a lot more expensive up here in canada than C63. New fully loaded C63 only cost 75k while a new loaded m3 will cost me 90k. The M3 isn't worth the extra 15k at all. C63 with Performance package which includes an LSD will run similiar time as the m3 around a track and fast in the staightline. Nevermind with a simple chip C63 will be making 520hp. M3 will never make that kind of power unless you go force induction which in my book is simply stupid. Cause with the money spent on FI you might as well get a GTR but thats a different story.
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Mikewarlover is offline   Canada
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