BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
GTB Performance
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-24-2009, 02:50 PM   #1
dnvrdrvr
Captain Obvious
United_States
26

 
dnvrdrvr's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Carbon X5M
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Denver, CO


Posts: 797
iTrader: (3)

Heel/Toe advice

Have been to 2 DEs and one open lapping day this summer. Another one scheduled in October. At this last one I was by far the fastest in my class (there was the Race/'A' class, 2 novice classes, and I was in the 'everyone in between' class). When I asked for areas I can improve the instructor told me that I really should learn & practice heel/toe before the next DE in October.

I'm one of those analytical-types, prefer to read then try, so if you know of any good "how-to" books/articles I'd love to get my hands on 'em. Your advice too! Everything I've heard is practice and it'll become second nature, but I really have no idea where to start. The whole idea seems foreign to me and I really don't want to drop the transmission figuring it out.
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2009, 03:06 PM   #2
BulletproofM
Lieutenant
United_States
32

 
BulletproofM's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Posts: 457
iTrader: (0)

I would suggest starting off by acknowledging what your RPM's rev to when you shift down every gear; 6-5, 5-4, 4-3, etc. After you understand exactly where your RPM's rev to when you down shift, try putting the clutch in for an extended period of time; while the clutch is in, rev the RPM's to the appropriate area. Keep doing that until you are familiar with how to build the RPM's while downshifting. In case you are not aware, this technique is called rev matching.

After you have gotten a good feel for rev matching, try doing the same thing but brake at the same time you use the gas. This is where heel toe comes in. Your right foot will go sideways, with your toes pointing towards the left. You will use the ball of your foot to brake while you use the heel of your foot to revmatch.

I learned how to drive by practicing what I saw on Touge battles. Here is a good example; maybe it will help you.

[u2b]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ikh65PCxFGw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ikh65PCxFGw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/u2b]

-Hunter
Appreciate 0
      07-24-2009, 03:22 PM   #3
Gearhead999s
Major General
221

 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: F25 2.8d(wifes)F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto


Posts: 6,803
iTrader: (0)

Try this video.Most Bimmers are extremly easy to "heel & toe" on,just takes some practice.

Appreciate 0
      07-24-2009, 03:57 PM   #4
BMW M Power Mexico
Second Lieutenant
Mexico
22

 
BMW M Power Mexico's Avatar
 
Drives: '05 E46 M3, '08 E60 M5, '11 1M
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South


Posts: 221
iTrader: (0)

Hi, its not that difficult. I actually do more of a reverse heel & toe where I brake with the middle of my feet and tip the accelerator with my toes. With the "standard" way I feel like I have to twist my leg too much.

Like BulletproofM suggested start by rev matching when coming to a stop and then try the heel&toe. You can practice on the street just make sure you have plenty of space both in front & rear when coming to a stop in case the car jerks as you gradually learn.

Heel & toe its huge fun. Just last saturday at the track I invited a friend as co-pilot for a few hot laps and after a few he was surprised at the smoothness of the shifts. Its a great satisfaction to do it right!

By the way, I find heel&toe easier on the E46 than the E90. The pedals on the '46 are a bit closer (and I am more used to it).

Cheers & enjoy.
__________________
BMW Car Club de México
¡Estás Invitado!
http://bmwclub.org.mx
Appreciate 0
      07-25-2009, 12:49 AM   #5
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
128

 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI


Posts: 5,534
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Just takes time. It took me about 2 months to get it down to second nature.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      07-25-2009, 01:04 AM   #6
foosh
Major
United_States
16

 
foosh's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3 E93
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD


Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

All good advice here. You're not going to drop a trannie by practicing heel and toe. The clutch pedal is your other foot. Just don't mess up on the brake part, or you'll break something else.

Seriously, start by just blipping and rev-matching during downshifts. You don't need to brake during a normal street downshift. Once you get that perfected in a particular car (and they are all different), find a position that is comfortable for your right foot between the brake and accelerator, and bring the brake pedal into the equation, while blipping the throttle. Then, practice, practice, practice.

Reading about it won't work, and I'm a reader too. It is purely an exercise in learning a coordinated, motor-response. Because of anatomy and comfort, everyone who is good at it develops their own slightly different twist to master heel and toe.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-25-2009, 07:33 AM   #7
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
128

 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI


Posts: 5,534
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Seriously, start by just blipping and rev-matching during downshifts. You don't need to brake during a normal street downshift. Once you get that perfected in a particular car (and they are all different), find a position that is comfortable for your right foot between the brake and accelerator, and bring the brake pedal into the equation, while blipping the throttle. Then, practice, practice, practice.
That's exactly how I learned. Trying to do the throttle blip, down shift, brake & gas at the same time will seem a bit overwhelming at first.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      07-25-2009, 09:04 AM   #8
von_zoom
Captain
22

 
von_zoom's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Z06
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Carolina


Posts: 915
iTrader: (0)

Good advice from those posting above. After you have accomplished rev matching, if you want to practice, may I suggest going to a full clover leaf at one of the interstates near you. You can practice to your hearts content, going around the clover leaf repeatedly, down shifting at high approach speeds as you approach the exit. Since the speed limit is around 65 - 70 mph, the HP will probably leave you alone. They may think you are crazy, going around in circles, but you are doing nothing illegal. Shifting away to some good music too.
vz
__________________


Previous Track Toy
Appreciate 0
      07-25-2009, 10:07 AM   #9
JJM335
Second Lieutenant
United_States
3

 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GA


Posts: 228
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
There really is no "right"way to heal-toe. Most instructors will simply tell you that the action of "blipping" the gas is simply done with some part of your foot that is comfortable for you. Once you find that it is just practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature. It has taken years for me to get comfortable with it. Now I can heal-toe in just about any car I get in within a few minutes.
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 12:47 PM   #10
MTROIS
Major
France
49

 
MTROIS's Avatar
 
Drives: on the wrong side of the Ocean
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA


Posts: 1,111
iTrader: (0)

Mastering heel/toe is also my next (important) step towards becoming a (much) better driver (especially on track). So far, I am still not able to keep a constant pressure on the brakes while bleeping the revs.
__________________
2008 M3 Coupé | 1995 M3 LTW | BMW CCA Instructor
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 03:06 PM   #11
M3V8Driver
Captain
United_States
41

 
M3V8Driver's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA


Posts: 727
iTrader: (0)

First of all, I think it was wrong of your instructor to say you should learn by the next event. That's BS. It's not a required skill. But aside from that, it is a skill that can make your downshifts smoother and save wear and tear on mechanical parts. Whatever you do, don't practice at the track. I've seen too many students screw up becasue they were concentrating on heel/toe rather than actual car control). It's perfectly safe to practice on public roads (not in traffic) just to get the hang of it. Don't worry about being able to blip the throttle to the exact revs your engine would otherwise rev to if you downshifted without heel/toe. That part will come naturally. It's more important to develop the ability first, so use some of the advice others above gave you until you feel comfortable with the motions. THEN work on rev-matching (high revs are better than lower revs, so don't be afraid to error on the side of caution = higher revs).
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 07:22 PM   #12
4u3
Private First Class
13

 
Drives: 09 E92
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pasadena MD


Posts: 105
iTrader: (0)

I will be up against it this week. Picking up a 06 Cayman S manual. I have not driven a clutch since my old TR6.After that SMG now DCT. Just wanted to learn something new. Any adviceyou can give is greatly appreciated. An driver told me today at the track, that in the begining you can just wait for the revs to match the gear, then let out the clutch. Whos know but should be fun and frustrating at the same time.
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2009, 03:01 PM   #13
SV Concepts II
United_States
355

 
SV Concepts II's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 1460 White Oaks Rd. Suite F Campbell, CA 95008


Posts: 6,095
iTrader: (7)

Practice during your every day driving. I know it's somewhat of a "street" racer thing to do, but drop down through the gears using the heel toe technique as you're coming to a smooth stop at a light. Heel toeing during light cadence braking works wonders in learning to maintain consistent brake pedal modulation while blipping.

And place emphasis on the brake.
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2009, 03:07 PM   #14
wolftrouble
Private First Class
12

 
Drives: 2008 M3 Sedan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Jose, CA


Posts: 148
iTrader: (0)

I know this kind of thing gets discussed all the time, so there's probably no point in saying it, but I cannot for the LIFE of me figure out how I'm supposed to heel-toe my M.

Which isn't to say I was/am good at it before, but I sat in my friend's Corvette and immediately could tell where I should put my heel and where to put my foot so I've got sufficient pressure on the brake and still enough 'left over' to feel out the throttle. But I sit in the M and I've tried every angle I can think of, no matter what it feels unnatural. Gah.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2009, 04:04 PM   #15
Paddy
Lieutenant
31

 
Paddy's Avatar
 
Drives: 08' M3, Jerez Black, ZPP
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Diego


Posts: 599
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolftrouble View Post
I know this kind of thing gets discussed all the time, so there's probably no point in saying it, but I cannot for the LIFE of me figure out how I'm supposed to heel-toe my M.

Which isn't to say I was/am good at it before, but I sat in my friend's Corvette and immediately could tell where I should put my heel and where to put my foot so I've got sufficient pressure on the brake and still enough 'left over' to feel out the throttle. But I sit in the M and I've tried every angle I can think of, no matter what it feels unnatural. Gah.
For me...
* No heel (Heel stays on the floor) the action involves left meaty portion of foot on half brake pedal and right (little toe) portion of the foot on the gas.
It's a left right rocking motion with a bit of dip towards the little toe.
* Shoes make a big difference. I have wide flattish moccasin style shoes that cover the spread nicely.
* there's no way I can swivel my heel to use it like some h&t drivers do, I don't think it's even possible with the placement of pedals in the M.
* Start with getting used to braking with half your foot
* Try this link http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/07/...g_made_simple/ it really worked well for me.
* incorporate into daily driving as much as you can, and it will eventually become second nature. I love hitting red stop lights now, 'cos it gives me a chance to h&t down the gears.
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2009, 11:12 AM   #16
wolftrouble
Private First Class
12

 
Drives: 2008 M3 Sedan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Jose, CA


Posts: 148
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
For me...
* No heel (Heel stays on the floor) the action involves left meaty portion of foot on half brake pedal and right (little toe) portion of the foot on the gas.
It's a left right rocking motion with a bit of dip towards the little toe.
* Shoes make a big difference. I have wide flattish moccasin style shoes that cover the spread nicely.
* there's no way I can swivel my heel to use it like some h&t drivers do, I don't think it's even possible with the placement of pedals in the M.
* Start with getting used to braking with half your foot
* Try this link http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/07/...g_made_simple/ it really worked well for me.
* incorporate into daily driving as much as you can, and it will eventually become second nature. I love hitting red stop lights now, 'cos it gives me a chance to h&t down the gears.
Thanks for the advice! I think I've tried all that, but I've got an open weekend with not much to do, so I think I'll practice some.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2009, 08:35 PM   #17
lucid
Major General
United_States
174

 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA


Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
* there's no way I can swivel my heel to use it like some h&t drivers do, I don't think it's even possible with the placement of pedals in the M.
I also thought pedal spacing was too wide when I first got the car and even tried narrowing the gap a little by using an Al plate. I tossed that after taking the car to the track as I was catching the throttle when I was standing on the brake padal. There is actually nothing wrong with the spacing, and if you practice enough, you won't have any problems making it work. Heel and toe on the track is different than on the street because you get on the pedal much deeper, and that allows you to use your heel better.
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:06 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST