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      08-05-2009, 09:24 PM   #23
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Not on a used car they don't. As I read it, the op bought a used car.
If the buyer asks they do have to disclose. If your state allows the dealer to lie I would buy out of state. It's disgusting behaviour.
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      08-05-2009, 09:45 PM   #24
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I didn't purchase the car in MD, it was purchased from a BMW dealer in AK. I was hesitant at first because the car was listed for such a low price on autotrader, it was listed for $49,900. That was one of the lowest if not the lowest price for a coupe in the country. Additionally the coupe was almost fully optioned out (AW, beige extended, premium, tech, sat, hd radio, ipod, enhanced premium sound, heated seats, and clearbra on hood, bumper, fender, and mirrors) and less than 4k miles on the odometer. Knowing that the price was so low I made sure to ask the dealer several times if the car has had any issues, body work, and/or accidents. I trusted the dealer and also thought that they legally had to disclose of such information, especially when asked. There must have been a reason why they listed it for such a low price and sold it to me for a even lower price ($49,000).

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      08-06-2009, 08:32 AM   #25
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Just found out the dealer is corporate owned. They should've done an inspection before buying the car back. I suspect they knew of the damages, thus they sold the car for that price. I will be in contact with BMWNA and see what they say.

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      08-06-2009, 09:35 AM   #26
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I was going to go in today to register and title the vehicle, should I hold off on that until this gets figured out? Its currently on a temp tag that's due to expire on Sat.
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      08-06-2009, 09:56 AM   #27
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Who told you that?

I asked my dealer if my car incurred any damge in treansit and my dealer told me that if my car had any damage they had to disclose that by law.

All in the state of Maryland...
You are right...by law they have to disclose any damage or repair. They didn't do it once and BMW was in a huge law suit.
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      08-06-2009, 11:16 AM   #28
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You need to talk to a lawyer asap. Dealership is obviously going to play dumb, regardless if they knew or not (my guess is they did). The issue is if the laws in your state allow you to win a litigation on the grounds they should have known. If you win, dealer might go after previous owner, which probably is the real 'criminal' here, for not disclosing the damage (I always do, as minor as it might be), but that's not your problem.

You'd also need an expert assessment of the repairs done to your car. And finally if your contract doesn't say anything about dealer guaranteeing car doesn't have damage, you might have a hard time winning. So the lesson for everybody reading this is to always add that language to the contract so we have a sure way to win a lawsuit if somebody can prove previous damage to the car, which shouldn't be hard in your case. Good luck.
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      08-06-2009, 02:03 PM   #29
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You need to talk to a lawyer asap. Dealership is obviously going to play dumb, regardless if they knew or not (my guess is they did). The issue is if the laws in your state allow you to win a litigation on the grounds they should have known. If you win, dealer might go after previous owner, which probably is the real 'criminal' here, for not disclosing the damage (I always do, as minor as it might be), but that's not your problem.

You'd also need an expert assessment of the repairs done to your car. And finally if your contract doesn't say anything about dealer guaranteeing car doesn't have damage, you might have a hard time winning. So the lesson for everybody reading this is to always add that language to the contract so we have a sure way to win a lawsuit if somebody can prove previous damage to the car, which shouldn't be hard in your case. Good luck.
Good advice, I agree that the only way the OP is going to get any resolution is to get a written report done by a qualified party and to spend a bit of money getting a legal opinion. The only thing I'd take issue with is that in my experience dealers won't amend their purchase docs or put anything in writing about prior damage, and to a degree I think that's understandable. That said it never hurts to ask

When it comes to prior accident damage every state's law varies with regard to the required disclosures. Most states are somewhat similar to NC, which requires:

1. Damage to new cars exceeding 3% of the car's value to be disclosed on the mandatory form completed by the dealer and given to the buyer at purchase.

2. That any dealer or private seller who is aware of any damage exceeding 25% of the car's value disclose that fact in writing upon sale as long as the car is less than 5 model years old (or is it 5 years or less, memory fails at the moment). In NC failing to do this is not only a civil wrong but also a crime

My take on this:

Every dealer meters the paint on any car taken into inventory, and has staff that are well versed in identifying prior damage. If a car has prior damage or paintwork, 99% of the time the dealer will know it.

That said, most states don't require disclosure of minor accident damage, and even the others have statutes that have a lot of coverage exclusions.

To be safe, every time you buy a car:

1. Realize the in the end, neither a salesman's verbal statements to the contrary, nor Carfax, nor the fact that a car is CPOed means that a particular car doesn't have prior accident damage. Yes, false statements can form the basis of a common law fraud claim, but proving these statements were 1. made, 2. false, and 3. reasonably relied upon is not a trivial process as any attorney will tell you.

2. That more often than not, once you take delivery of the car you're most likely going to have limited legal recourse if you find out later that what you believed to be true about your car isn't. Even if the law is on your side, lawyers don't work for free, and you're at a minimum going to have a lot of time in effort sunk into trying to get made whole.

3. Avoid problems by following the advice mentioned earlier in this thread and having a PPI done (if buying from a private seller), or if you're buying from a dealer, have their buyer meter the car's paint in front of you. If the seller won't work with you, decide if you can handle the fact that the car may have been hit, and if you can't walk away from the deal.

Don't rely on the law or Carfax's borderline-deceptive marketing to protect you, more often than not some patience and effort in the buying process can save you a lot of headaches later on.

Good luck OP, let us know what you find out.
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      08-06-2009, 02:42 PM   #30
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I don't know what the law says, but I do know that work done at the VPC is typically documented in the car's history. I had an E46 that had the hood repainted at the VPC due to a scratch that happened while in transit. Before I bought the car I had all of the service records printed up by a dealership and that information was included with the documents.
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      08-06-2009, 03:03 PM   #31
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I just got back from my local dealer after getting it inspected. Bad news is that both rear shocks and front thrust arms were replaced in the past and at a minimum both doors as well as the trunk were repainted, and possibly the fenders. Good news is that they said whoever did the work did a very very good job. Both a body shop and the dealer said they didn't see any frame damage from what they could see and the car doesn't track left or right.

Alright now for the legal aspect of it. I called the Arkansas Attorney General's office, who forwarded me to the Arkansas BBB, who then forwarded me to the Arkansas state police department that deals with used car dealer licensing. They said the dealer isn't legally obligated to disclose such information if the car has a clean title because they might not have known. Any respectable dealer would've done an inspection on the car and noticed the body work how can it be proven that they knew about it? Even if they did know, they apparently don't have to disclose to the buyer about such things. Anyone know BMW NA's phone number?
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      08-06-2009, 04:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTurhee View Post
I just got back from my local dealer after getting it inspected. Bad news is that both rear shocks and front thrust arms were replaced in the past and at a minimum both doors as well as the trunk were repainted, and possibly the fenders. Good news is that they said whoever did the work did a very very good job. Both a body shop and the dealer said they didn't see any frame damage from what they could see and the car doesn't track left or right.

Alright now for the legal aspect of it. I called the Arkansas Attorney General's office, who forwarded me to the Arkansas BBB, who then forwarded me to the Arkansas state police department that deals with used car dealer licensing. They said the dealer isn't legally obligated to disclose such information if the car has a clean title because they might not have known. Any respectable dealer would've done an inspection on the car and noticed the body work how can it be proven that they knew about it? Even if they did know, they apparently don't have to disclose to the buyer about such things. Anyone know BMW NA's phone number?
Honestly, I wouldn't waste your time with BMWNA, like the Arkansas AG and BBB they have no power to compel the dealer to do anything.

Before you get too far into this, you have to realize that you're going to be dealing with Arkansas law and and Arkansas attorney if you press this. It sounds like you got a very good deal on the car, so do you want the dealer to rescind the contract and take the car back? Do you want compensation? If so, you need to get an appraisal from an auto wholesaler who will write you a formal opinion on how much less the car is worth because of the damage (I don't expect your local dealer will do this).

The car obviously looks good, and to some degree the damage may have been accounted for in the price. It's very, very possible pushing this is going to end up with you throwing good money after bad and even more soured on a car you would have otherwise been happy with.

If you don't want the car at this point you can:

1. Drive the car back down there and demand they rescind the contract.

2. Send them an overnight, certified letter explaining how you were defrauded and either ask for their position or demand that they either take the car back or compensate you.

3. Call the local Bar Association in the county where the dealer is located and ask if they have a lawyer referral service. Where I am we have this program and you can get an attorney consult for $50.

I think you can start with any of these, the most important thing is that you put the dealer on notice of the problem immediately if you haven't already. I would be reasonable and avoid lots of threats and hostility to start, give the dealer a chance to make this right and continue to bring pressure if they don't. Whatever you do, don't delay, and keep us posted.
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      08-06-2009, 04:53 PM   #33
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Honestly, I wouldn't waste your time with BMWNA, like the Arkansas AG and BBB they have no power to compel the dealer to do anything.

Before you get too far into this, you have to realize that you're going to be dealing with Arkansas law and and Arkansas attorney if you press this. It sounds like you got a very good deal on the car, so do you want the dealer to rescind the contract and take the car back? Do you want compensation? If so, you need to get an appraisal from an auto wholesaler who will write you a formal opinion on how much less the car is worth because of the damage (I don't expect your local dealer will do this).

The car obviously looks good, and to some degree the damage may have been accounted for in the price. It's very, very possible pushing this is going to end up with you throwing good money after bad and even more soured on a car you would have otherwise been happy with.

If you don't want the car at this point you can:

1. Drive the car back down there and demand they rescind the contract.

2. Send them an overnight, certified letter explaining how you were defrauded and either ask for their position or demand that they either take the car back or compensate you.

3. Call the local Bar Association in the county where the dealer is located and ask if they have a lawyer referral service. Where I am we have this program and you can get an attorney consult for $50.

I think you can start with any of these, the most important thing is that you put the dealer on notice of the problem immediately if you haven't already. I would be reasonable and avoid lots of threats and hostility to start, give the dealer a chance to make this right and continue to bring pressure if they don't. Whatever you do, don't delay, and keep us posted.
I wanted to Call BMWNA because this dealer is corporate owned. Anyways, I want to find out exactly what happened and what was replaced/repaired. I did some detective work and queried the vin in google and found an online listing of the same car the original owner tried to sell through another person. I got in contact with that person and got the original owner's name and occupation and he said he'd dig through his files and find his number as well. I googled his name and occupation (his name is not an average name) and found his work number. I called his work number and left a message for him. Hopefully he calls me back so I can definitely find out what happened to the car.
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      08-06-2009, 07:09 PM   #34
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If the doors are rubbing the fenders, that means that doors or fenders have been off the car. I'm guessing the car had major body work and there is no way in the world the dealer was not aware of it.

I was looking at a 911 at an Audi dealer a few years back on a long distance purchase that appeared perfect in pictures and the dealer swore was all original etc. PPI picked up that the whole car had been painted. Just because it is on a dealer's lot doesn't mean you can't have a PPI done. I've done it several times.

Unfortunately I don't have any good advice on this particular car and I'm not trying to rub salt in the wound, just recommeding for others so they don't get into this situation.

Good luck!
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      08-06-2009, 07:54 PM   #35
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Huge Discovery

So, the original owner did call me back. He was a very nice fellow, anyways, he told me he jumped a curb so some of the suspension components were replaced as well as some of the underbody panels. He also said the insurance allowed for his whole car to be repainted due to it. He also said there was no frame damage and he's going to scan a copy of the insurance report and email it to me! Here's the real kicker.....the dealer I bought it from did ALL the repair work. Yeah, the dealer that said it had no body work or major repairs done was the dealer that did all the work. There has to be something illegal about that....
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      08-06-2009, 08:07 PM   #36
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Did you purchase this car "as is", or does it have BMW's CPO warranty? If the dealer Performed a CPO inspection with this body repair present, then I would blame them. If it was sold "as is" with the remainder of the existing 4/50 warranty, then I'm not sure if the blame is really on them.

The fact is that if the car was traded in to the dealer in it's current condition, they were likely unaware of the car's history. Those panel gaps look pretty bad from the pics, though. The door and fender SHOULD NOT be touching in any place, and you can tell that the gaps are not even from top to bottom. I would call this a poor body repair.

Over the years, I have learned how to very easily spot any body repairs on a newer car. Under good shop lights it is very easy to see additional orange peel, fish-eye and other signs of repair. Another thing to look for is to open the hood and all the doors and inspect the mounting hardware for the fenders and doors. The factory finish leaves these areas very clean and unmolested. If someone has been in there, there will almost always be tool marks and signs of adjustment. It helps to compare the finish quality of different areas of the car. It can be hard for the untrained eye to spot some of this stuff, but when you compare it to a factory-finished area, there can be a big difference.

Let me also say this: once a car has been crashed, it is never the same. With that said, buying used cars can be a gamble and it is worth every penny to have an independent inspection performed before you buy.
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      08-06-2009, 08:22 PM   #37
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Did you purchase this car "as is", or does it have BMW's CPO warranty? If the dealer Performed a CPO inspection with this body repair present, then I would blame them. If it was sold "as is" with the remainder of the existing 4/50 warranty, then I'm not sure if the blame is really on them.

The fact is that if the car was traded in to the dealer in it's current condition, they were likely unaware of the car's history. Those panel gaps look pretty bad from the pics, though. The door and fender SHOULD NOT be touching in any place, and you can tell that the gaps are not even from top to bottom. I would call this a poor body repair.

Over the years, I have learned how to very easily spot any body repairs on a newer car. Under good shop lights it is very easy to see additional orange peel, fish-eye and other signs of repair. Another thing to look for is to open the hood and all the doors and inspect the mounting hardware for the fenders and doors. The factory finish leaves these areas very clean and unmolested. If someone has been in there, there will almost always be tool marks and signs of adjustment. It helps to compare the finish quality of different areas of the car. It can be hard for the untrained eye to spot some of this stuff, but when you compare it to a factory-finished area, there can be a big difference.

Let me also say this: once a car has been crashed, it is never the same. With that said, buying used cars can be a gamble and it is worth every penny to have an independent inspection performed before you buy.
read my post directly above yours. The dealer did all the repair work, they were well aware of the history. The second picture is with the door open to show you where its rubbing. Does as is mean it still has the remaining 4 year 50k mile warranty? The only warranty the car has is the original factory warranty.
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      08-06-2009, 08:38 PM   #38
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Congrats on your detective work. You're doing a great job of compiling facts and figuring out what your options are.

BMWM.D asked you if was a "CPO car," and from your response, I assume the answer is no. If it was, you would have more options with BMW/NA.

Since the selling dealer did the body and repair work, they certainly should have disclosed the repairs, which were clearly more than minor. However, it is still a legal grey area if the car was sold "as is," which most used cars are.

What they did was certainly unethical, but the real question will rest upon whether it was illegal. Take a close look at your papers, and see if there is any reference to the "as is" clause.

If there is a reference to "as is," I would strongly suggest a "soft" approach with the dealer, regardless of how angry you may be. That means, "I would like to receive a full-refund on this purchase, and you can have the car back, since you made a verbal representation that there was no prior accident damage."

It will depend upon goodwill, so be nice. Another option would be to ask for a deal on full-purchase price trade for a new car in their inventory. Either of those may be your best option, depending upon the facts in this case.

And, good luck! I'm sorry you had this experience.
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      08-06-2009, 11:05 PM   #39
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If you dont like the car, ... sell it for a new M3....

Fact is you should always look yourself for damage and not rely on dealer.
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      08-07-2009, 04:20 AM   #40
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If you dont like the car, ... sell it for a new M3....

Fact is you should always look yourself for damage and not rely on dealer.
This was my first time buying a used car and a learning experience. If the car was sold by a private party I would've flown out to AR and had the car inspected but for some reason I thought I could trust a BMW dealer...I guess I was wrong. Its just funny how they did all the work on the car yet it does not show up on the service records, almost as if they purposely left it off to hide the fact that its been in an accident.
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      08-07-2009, 07:26 AM   #41
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Is the shadowline trip supposed to sit flush with the body? The upper shadowline trim has a gap but the lower trim sits flush, is that normal?
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      08-07-2009, 02:21 PM   #42
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Did you purchase this car "as is", or does it have BMW's CPO warranty? If the dealer Performed a CPO inspection with this body repair present, then I would blame them. If it was sold "as is" with the remainder of the existing 4/50 warranty, then I'm not sure if the blame is really on them.
The dealer is to blame either way IMO. Now that you mention the CPO issue, if dealer didn't CPO the car it was because it didn't qualify. Dealers ALWAYS inspect year-old cars to make them CPOs if possible, no? They make more money that way. They should have a paper somewhere saying why they couldn't CPO that car, and they should have disclosed it if it was something that bad IMO. I'm sure an attorney could sub-poena those records. Good luck OP.
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      08-07-2009, 05:00 PM   #43
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the dealer did all the repair work including the body work however none of that was in the service history when my local dealer pulled it up, carfax had nothing on it either. The sale person said he did not know either until he asked around. Right now I have 2 options, they'll allow me to return the car or they'll give me $2000 plus $500 for the replacement of a front control arm and what my SA called a "L piece". What should I do?

$47k for a 2008 AW/extended beige coupe with 3666 miles that has been totally repainted by a certified bmw collision repair facility and every single option available on the 08 model except m-dct and park distance control. One thing that does worry me is that the left strut tower stabilizer bar seems to have been replaced. Both a private body shop and one of the best techs at my local dealer said the whoever worked on it did a very good job. Based on what the original owner told me and what the dealer I bought it from told me, the car did not have to be totally repainted.

or

Return the car and get a refund.
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      08-07-2009, 05:12 PM   #44
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Return the car. Its always going to be in the back of your mind.

Frankly I'd rather have a stripped out brand new one than a damaged one with every option.

Or, if you are satisfied that the repairs are good and you are not going to bothered by it ask them to give you the equivalent of a CPO warranty if they can't CPO it.
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