BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-26-2009, 10:31 AM   #1
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,452
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Noelle Motors 4.6l conversion

Well, its nothing new, but plus to Dinan an RDsport, Noelle Motors also has an increased capacity upgrade for the S65 engine: 4.6l V8, 520 hp@8.3K and 500 Nm@4.2K . Its a good thing for those that are in Europe.
http://www.noellemotors.de/4_6l_engi...ee94848.0.html

There is also a stroker kit for the S85 engine: 5.8l V10 630 hp, 630 Nm.

If not, I do not know if its the right place to ask my question, but does a stroker kit affect the perfect balance of the M3? Increased capacity should mean more weight, and so more heavy front?
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 10:57 AM   #2
Lemans_Blue_M
Automotive Industry Insider
Lemans_Blue_M's Avatar
United_States
19
Rep
1,948
Posts

 
Drives: Lemans Blue M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Well, its nothing new, but plus to Dinan an RDsport, Noelle Motors also has an increased capacity upgrade for the S65 engine: 4.6l V8, 520 hp@8.3K and 500 Nm@4.2K . Its a good thing for those that are in Europe.
http://www.noellemotors.de/4_6l_engi...ee94848.0.html

There is also a stroker kit for the S85 engine: 5.8l V10 630 hp, 630 Nm.

If not, I do not know if its the right place to ask my question, but does a stroker kit affect the perfect balance of the M3? Increased capacity should mean more weight, and so more heavy front?
Umm...no, a stroker kit won't generally INCREASE weight of the engine. It may in fact stay the same. In many cases the overall weight of the stroker engine will actually DECREASE the overall weight due to the lighter weight internal engine parts used in many stroker engine kits.

Aftermarket performance shops with the proper training, tools, and experience to build a stroker engine, typical use lightweight forged steel connecting rods and lightweight forged aluminum pistons.

These aftermarket spec'd engine parts are on average lighter than their stock OEM parts they are replacing.

It also depends on whether the engine was BORED and STROKED...or just STROKED. (leaving the orignal factory bore sizing intact)

In some cases, the OE CRANKSHAFT is replaced...in some cases it is not.

If the crankshaft is replaced with an aftermarket one, it is even more important to balance the entire reciprocating mass as a single unit to avoid damaging engine vibrations issues later on.

It takes a lot of experience and technical knowledge to properly build a BMW stroker engine. It's certainly not something you'd want your local engine builder (who builds 350 Chevy engines) to try.
__________________
The best is yet to come...
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 10:57 AM   #3
askiles
Major
askiles's Avatar
23
Rep
1,164
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 M3 Sedan - Alpine White
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Well, its nothing new, but plus to Dinan an RDsport, Noelle Motors also has an increased capacity upgrade for the S65 engine: 4.6l V8, 520 hp@8.3K and 500 Nm@4.2K . Its a good thing for those that are in Europe.
http://www.noellemotors.de/4_6l_engi...ee94848.0.html

There is also a stroker kit for the S85 engine: 5.8l V10 630 hp, 630 Nm.

If not, I do not know if its the right place to ask my question, but does a stroker kit affect the perfect balance of the M3? Increased capacity should mean more weight, and so more heavy front?
The stroker kit probably only weighs a few more pounds if that. The stroke crank is just longer, but no by much. I would imagine the weight difference is negligible.

-Andy
__________________
2008 M3 Sedan- Alpine White
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 11:59 AM   #4
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,452
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the replies. About the quality there is nothing to doubt with Dinan, RDSport or Noelle Motors (former BMW ALPINA engine development responsible) . So if the weight is not an issue, it may be better than a supercharger, for it is more reliable.
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 12:21 PM   #5
elp_jc
Brigadier General
United_States
80
Rep
4,910
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: May 2008
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
If the crankshaft is replaced with an aftermarket one, it is even more important to balance the entire reciprocating mass as a single unit to avoid damaging engine vibrations issues later on.
I think that's critical to do on a +15% stroker engine revving to 8K+ rpm, regardless what's replaced, but could be wrong. Great point man.
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 12:21 PM   #6
askiles
Major
askiles's Avatar
23
Rep
1,164
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 M3 Sedan - Alpine White
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Umm...no, a stroker kit won't generally INCREASE weight of the engine. It may in fact stay the same. In many cases the overall weight of the stroker engine will actually DECREASE the overall weight due to the lighter weight internal engine parts used in many stroker engine kits.

Aftermarket performance shops with the proper training, tools, and experience to build a stroker engine, typical use lightweight forged steel connecting rods and lightweight forged aluminum pistons.

These aftermarket spec'd engine parts are on average lighter than their stock OEM parts they are replacing.

It also depends on whether the engine was BORED and STROKED...or just STROKED. (leaving the orignal factory bore sizing intact)

In some cases, the OE CRANKSHAFT is replaced...in some cases it is not.

If the crankshaft is replaced with an aftermarket one, it is even more important to balance the entire reciprocating mass as a single unit to avoid damaging engine vibrations issues later on.

It takes a lot of experience and technical knowledge to properly build a BMW stroker engine. It's certainly not something you'd want your local engine builder (who builds 350 Chevy engines) to try.
Due to the fact that all stock internals are already forged aluminum pieces, I would think the crank would weigh a pound or two more due to the longer stroke.

-Andy
__________________
2008 M3 Sedan- Alpine White
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 01:15 PM   #7
Lemans_Blue_M
Automotive Industry Insider
Lemans_Blue_M's Avatar
United_States
19
Rep
1,948
Posts

 
Drives: Lemans Blue M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by askiles View Post
Due to the fact that all stock internals are already forged aluminum pieces, I would think the crank would weigh a pound or two more due to the longer stroke.

-Andy
Not necessarily Andy.

The stock S65 engine uses forged steel/magnesium connecting rods, but the stock pistons are not forged. They are made of CAST aluminum which have a durable iron metal anti-friction coating on the piston skirts.

I believe the OE manufacturer of those pistons is MAHLE.

The crankshaft is made of high-strength forged steel, not aluminum.

The OE BMW Motorsort crankshaft uses counter-balancing weights to reduce engine vibration in the 90 degree S65 V8 engine, so if the aftermarket crank is custom machined without these (or smaller lighter ones)...then you could still end up with a lighter overall crankshaft despite the longer throw.

Our OE crankshaft may or may not weigh more depending it's construction.

BTW: Aluminum connecting rods (even forged ones) would be far too fragile to handle the stress of 8000+ rpms for a street car. It wouldn't take much time for these to fail under high stress loads. Some engines like the Corvette Z06 use forged titanium connecting rods to reduce overall reciprocating mass in the large 7.0-liter V8 engine. It also uses CAST aluminum pistons by the way...
__________________
The best is yet to come...
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 01:34 PM   #8
elp_jc
Brigadier General
United_States
80
Rep
4,910
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: May 2008
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
if the aftermarket crank is custom machined without these (or smaller lighter ones)...then you could still end up with a lighter overall crankshaft despite the longer throw.
I'd say no way countershaft weights could be reduced after adding displacement (and power). Maybe left the same, like some manufacturers do when enlarging their engines, but it'd be unacceptable on an M3 IMO.
You could get away with that on an I6 engine since it has perfect primary and secondary balance, but a 90 V8 has only perfect primary balance (no need for counterrotating balance shafts), so you need to quell the secondary order vibrations. It'd be nice to hear from the stroker folks to see what they're actually doing in that regard. And from stroker owners to see if they perceive more engine vibration. Doing things right definitely costs a lot of money, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct. Good day.
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2009, 01:56 PM   #9
Checkcaptain
Captain
Germany
40
Rep
995
Posts

 
Drives: BMW M3 E92
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via MSN to Checkcaptain Send a message via Skype™ to Checkcaptain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Well, its nothing new, but plus to Dinan an RDsport, Noelle Motors also has an increased capacity upgrade for the S65 engine: 4.6l V8, 520 hp@8.3K and 500 Nm@4.2K . Its a good thing for those that are in Europe.
http://www.noellemotors.de/4_6l_engi...ee94848.0.html

There is also a stroker kit for the S85 engine: 5.8l V10 630 hp, 630 Nm.

If not, I do not know if its the right place to ask my question, but does a stroker kit affect the perfect balance of the M3? Increased capacity should mean more weight, and so more heavy front?
Thanks for the hint - I was in contact with RD and Dinan already, since I do have a spare S65 engine already sitting in my garage and waiting for the job!
But now things should be much easier for me
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2009, 08:34 PM   #10
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Well, its nothing new, but plus to Dinan an RDsport, Noelle Motors also has an increased capacity upgrade for the S65 engine: 4.6l V8, 520 hp@8.3K and 500 Nm@4.2K . Its a good thing for those that are in Europe.
http://www.noellemotors.de/4_6l_engi...ee94848.0.html

There is also a stroker kit for the S85 engine: 5.8l V10 630 hp, 630 Nm.

If not, I do not know if its the right place to ask my question, but does a stroker kit affect the perfect balance of the M3? Increased capacity should mean more weight, and so more heavy front?
Do you know how much this costs? I could not locate it on their website.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-29-2009, 04:29 AM   #11
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,452
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Wow, the RDSport crank looks so much better than the OEM crank. It look lighter and of better quality.
As for the price I do not know, but I do not think it is convenient for those that are not in EU, unless NM has some other places where they can do the work.
Appreciate 0
      07-29-2009, 06:02 AM   #12
Strax
Enlisted Member
Strax's Avatar
0
Rep
40
Posts

 
Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Athens, Greece

iTrader: (0)

Well, Noelle is in Germany and Racing Dynamics are in Italy...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2009, 01:46 AM   #13
RDSport
Private
RDSport's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
62
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 RS35 Biturbo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laguna Niguel, CA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to RDSport
Noelle = Dinan

I have a feeling, lookinag t bore/stroke ratios and previous conversations i have had with KO Noelle, that him and Dinan are cooperating. He claimed to me that Dinan's original V10 stroker was his development. Did Dinan return the favour on the V8?

Racing Dynamics S.p.A. and RDSport sell the same RS46 product, so if you want worldwide support from 1 company, you have an option.
Appreciate 0
      08-14-2009, 02:06 AM   #14
Lemans_Blue_M
Automotive Industry Insider
Lemans_Blue_M's Avatar
United_States
19
Rep
1,948
Posts

 
Drives: Lemans Blue M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
I have a feeling, lookinag t bore/stroke ratios and previous conversations i have had with KO Noelle, that him and Dinan are cooperating. He claimed to me that Dinan's original V10 stroker was his development. Did Dinan return the favour on the V8?

Racing Dynamics S.p.A. and RDSport sell the same RS46 product, so if you want worldwide support from 1 company, you have an option.
Your crankshaft, reminds me of a forged crankshaft I've seen in an 3.4L S54B32 stroker engine. It was custom made by Arrow Precision in England.

It was made using low-sulphur CORUS EN40B chromium-molybdenum nitrided steel. (hardened and tempered)
__________________
The best is yet to come...
Appreciate 0
      08-21-2009, 03:34 PM   #15
Genro757
///M-Flight VP
Genro757's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
670
Posts

 
Drives: '13 Frozen Red Edition E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NOVA/Virginia Beach, VA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 E92 M3  [0.00]
Hmmm..I think I'm gonna contact these guys for pricing...they're also located in Fussen...if anyone has ever been in that area...its where the Neuschweinstein castle is located...and the roads there are absolutley amazing and scenic!!!!
Appreciate 0
      08-21-2009, 06:33 PM   #16
Poppin Fresh
Colonel
Poppin Fresh's Avatar
Philippines
33
Rep
2,128
Posts

 
Drives: With a sunroof and front plate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Bergen County NJ

iTrader: (0)

PencilGeek, that photo explanation just made my jaw drop. Like you said, that crank looks sooO good compared to the OEM S65 crankshaft. Smooth+less turbulance and better flow= One Bad Mama Jama of an Engine!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2009, 09:29 AM   #17
Swancoat
First Lieutenant
7
Rep
350
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppin Fresh View Post
PencilGeek, that photo explanation just made my jaw drop. Like you said, that crank looks sooO good compared to the OEM S65 crankshaft. Smooth+less turbulance and better flow= One Bad Mama Jama of an Engine!
I was not aware that airflow/turbulence were issues with a crankshaft (and I'm a bit skeptical). I figured it was all about balance.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2009, 10:54 AM   #18
Moxie
Lieutenant Colonel
Moxie's Avatar
Germany
25
Rep
1,860
Posts

 
Drives: AW 328d Touring/SG 335d
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart

iTrader: (11)



Subscribed - Info on their tune & stroker attached -

Attached Images
File Type: pdf NoelleStroker NM_e2.181_M3_4_6l_V8.pdf (211.5 KB, 220 views)
File Type: pdf NoelleTune NMe8_180_M3_V8.pdf (210.4 KB, 186 views)
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2009, 04:17 AM   #19
Moxie
Lieutenant Colonel
Moxie's Avatar
Germany
25
Rep
1,860
Posts

 
Drives: AW 328d Touring/SG 335d
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart

iTrader: (11)

Price for Stroker

I recv'd an e-mail from Karl-Otto Noelle of Noelle Motors. The stroker costs 22,000 Euro. Take 19% VAT off that it and at the current conversion rate it equates to $26,437. I think I'll pass. I was hoping it'd be around the $8K range. That, I'd do.

He didn't offer up the Tune cost yet. This may be a more affordable option.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2009, 04:10 PM   #20
pepper
Second Lieutenant
5
Rep
262
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 0 degrees

iTrader: (1)

^ wow, hard price to eat
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2009, 12:07 PM   #21
Moxie
Lieutenant Colonel
Moxie's Avatar
Germany
25
Rep
1,860
Posts

 
Drives: AW 328d Touring/SG 335d
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
The full RDS stroker with installation costs $32,800 USD; Dinan basic stroker Stage-1 without installation $26,000 USD. I'm not sure why the Noelle price is a shock to anybody. It's basically right in line with what you should have expected.
I had no idea - Never researched it. I got a e-mail on the 476 HP tune - It can be had for under $4K.

Here's a couple more tunes from the Brits complete with exhaust -

http://ca-automotive.co.uk/products-...faWQ9OA==.html
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 03:32 AM   #22
TX
First Lieutenant
11
Rep
357
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 ///M3 E92 APW 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: South FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie View Post
I had no idea - Never researched it. I got a e-mail on the 476 HP tune - It can be had for under $4K.

Here's a couple more tunes from the Brits complete with exhaust -

http://ca-automotive.co.uk/products-...faWQ9OA==.html
The 4k is USD? Is that for the Noelle chip tune? How do we handle an ECU mailed to the EU? I guess a reflash with mailing to the EU would be a pain if the dealer decided to flash over it at some point.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
noelle motors, s65, stoker kit

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:20 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST