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      07-24-2009, 06:15 PM   #1
quickbmw
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Do European Spec BMW's have more power than the U.S versions?

Theres some rumor that BMW "de-tunes" the U.S spec BMWs, can anybody confirm if the U.S versions are watered down versions of the original high performance european spec models. I know that the emissions have to be modified to meet u.s standards, could this be the reason for the significant difference in throttle response and overall power/feel of the car?
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      07-24-2009, 06:17 PM   #2
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Theres some rumor that BMW "de-tunes" the U.S spec BMWs, can anybody confirm if the U.S versions are watered down versions of the original high performance european spec models. I know that the emissions have to be modified to meet u.s standards, could this be the reason for the significant difference in throttle response and overall power/feel of the car?
Nope. I believe the older models used to have less bhp but the E9x is the same. We measure differently (DIN) so it equates to 420bhp (DIN) to your 414bhp. Same thing.
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      07-24-2009, 06:28 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
Nope. I believe the older models used to have less bhp but the E9x is the same. We measure differently (DIN) so it equates to 420bhp (DIN) to your 414bhp. Same thing.
What's with this "WE" crap. You're Canadian.
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      07-24-2009, 06:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quickbmw View Post
Theres some rumor that BMW "de-tunes" the U.S spec BMWs, can anybody confirm if the U.S versions are watered down versions of the original high performance european spec models. I know that the emissions have to be modified to meet u.s standards, could this be the reason for the significant difference in throttle response and overall power/feel of the car?
You really need to get some better sources...lol

US-Spec M3 S65B40 engines are tested under the SAE HP standard here in the United States.

Euro-Spec M3 S65B40 engines are tested under the DIN HP standard in Europe and the rest of the world.

420 DIN (euro-spec HP) = 414 SAE (U.S. spec HP)

Same engine, same power, just a different way of calculating the final numbers.

/ thread.
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      07-24-2009, 06:57 PM   #5
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      07-24-2009, 09:03 PM   #6
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What's with this "WE" crap. You're Canadian.
Nope. I'm only a blowin. I'm Irish.
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      07-24-2009, 10:58 PM   #7
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don't they have much much better gas over there?
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      07-25-2009, 02:02 AM   #8
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I believe with the E30 and E36 M3s, this was the case. But the E46 and E92s are the same for all markets.
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      07-25-2009, 04:04 AM   #9
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The Eurocars efficient dynamics system should make a difference, IIUC the USA spec cars don't have it. The system disconnects the alternator when the throttle is open and reconnects on closed throttle/braking, subject to the battery having sufficient charge. I guess the effect is something similar to the underdrive pully but more so. I've read it could be worth a significant number of BHP at high rpm WOT but can't find a source.
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      07-25-2009, 07:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderco10 View Post
I believe with the E30 and E36 M3s, this was the case. But the E46 and E92s are the same for all markets.
I thought the Euro E46 M3 had 343hp, compared to US 333hp?
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      07-25-2009, 08:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
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I thought the Euro E46 M3 had 343hp, compared to US 333hp?
CSL?

On another note, what is the more acturate calculation, DIN or SAE?
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      07-25-2009, 10:50 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
On another note, what is the more acturate calculation, DIN or SAE?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
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      07-25-2009, 11:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
The Eurocars efficient dynamics system should make a difference, IIUC the USA spec cars don't have it. The system disconnects the alternator when the throttle is open and reconnects on closed throttle/braking, subject to the battery having sufficient charge. I guess the effect is something similar to the underdrive pully but more so. I've read it could be worth a significant number of BHP at high rpm WOT but can't find a source.
Those 'regional' differences have been accounted for in the R&D phase.

There is no difference in the HP or TRQ on these engines. There is no proof to back that up. The engineers spend a lot of time tuning these engines on the dyno, so they will put out the same power and torque no matter where the car is sold.

This why you can't use a Euro-spec tuned ECU on a U.S.-spec car. They are tuned slightly different to account for regional fuel octane variations, deleted or re-engineered performance parts, and any intake or exhaust modifications. By manipulating the VANOS camshaft spread angles, fueling, and spark, the engine can still yield the same maximum power and torque at a given rpm. Now that is easier said than done...

This kind of engine tuning takes hundreds of dyno sessions to properly dial in the powerband, and it costs BMW a fortune to pull this off. ($$$$$$$$$$)

I wish people would stop with all these conspiracy theories...
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      07-25-2009, 11:55 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHarris View Post
I thought the Euro E46 M3 had 343hp, compared to US 333hp?
When factoring in the differences of DIN (Euro metric HP calculation) vs. SAE (U.S. standard method of calculating HP) the difference is much smaller than 10 HP...

E46 M3 S54B32 engine output DIN: 343 HP

E46 M3 S54B32 engine output SAE: 338 HP

That's only a net difference of 5 HP

The only reason the U.S.-spec E46 M3's didn't get the exact same power as the Euro-Spec engines was our strict emission regulations here in the United States. The EPA/CARB emission standards that required BMW to moving the catalytic converters up into the actual exhaust headers to burn off more volatile exhaust gas hydrocarbons during cold starting conditions. (before the engine is fully warmed up)

That engineering revision caused a restriction of the exhaust gas pulses exiting the engine, and that reduced the exhaust gas savaging effect of the headers. This resulted in a slight loss in overall horsepower.

Euro-spec engines had their cats in the first mid-pipe section further downstream, so their engines did not suffer the same performance hit as ours.
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      07-25-2009, 12:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
On another note, what is the more acturate calculation, DIN or SAE?
I'd say the lower one, which is still WAY higher than what you actually get at the wheels, which is the number that matters. Oh, and those are IDEAL numbers that you'd probably never duplicate, even at sea level in 60ºF dry weather .
That's similar to the 'dry' weights most manufacturers (especially motorcycle ones) love to report, which means no battery, no tools, and no fluids at all (including gas). Like if you could ride/drive the darn vehicle like that. Rant off . Have a great weekend gang.
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      07-25-2009, 02:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Those 'regional' differences have been accounted for in the R&D phase.

There is no difference in the HP or TRQ on these engines. There is no proof to back that up. The engineers spend a lot of time tuning these engines on the dyno, so they will put out the same power and torque no matter where the car is sold.
Really? They give extra bhp to USA spec cars to account for the lack of the Efficient dynamics sytem?
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      07-25-2009, 02:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Really? They give extra bhp to USA spec cars to account for the lack of the Efficient dynamics sytem?
Our U.S-spec cars don't have the Brake energy recovery system that you have in Europe, but our alternator does disconnect at WOT as well. (freeing up top end power)

So our U.S.-spec alternator is CHARGING the battery for less time...and it has to work harder to keep the stock 90Ah battery fully charged.

The BMW M division engineers have tweaked the ECU tuning to get the same power output for our engines as the Euro-spec cars, and the only real difference will be a slight increase in fuel consumption for U.S.-spec'd M3's.

This increase in fuel consumption will only be readily apparent, if you routinely rev the engine out near the limiter on a regular basis.
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      07-25-2009, 02:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Our U.S-spec cars don't have the Brake energy recovery system that you have in Europe, but our alternator does disconnect at WOT as well. (freeing up top end power)

So our U.S.-spec alternator is CHARGING the battery for less time...and it has to work harder to keep the stock 90Ah battery fully charged.
That is essentially the Brake energy recovery system.
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      07-25-2009, 02:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
That is essentially the Brake energy recovery system.
Not quite.

Our cars here in the United States get a 'watered down' version of the system. We do not benefit from the slightly better fuel economy by recovering the brake energy to power accessories or re-charged the battery. (which takes some of the load off of the alternator) Therefore the alternator becomes the sole pathway to recharging the starting battery in the trunk while also delivering power to all the lighting, and other electronics in the car.

Long story short, BMW ditched this system on U.S.-spec M3's as a cost cutting move.

I'd love to have this system on my car if I had the choice.
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      07-25-2009, 04:01 PM   #20
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I don't know what system you have in the USA...but the Euro "brake energy recovery system" has nothing at all to do with the brakes. It simply consists of a special battery, a high output alternator and associated electronics. When you accelerate the alternator is disconnected, when the throttles are closed the alternator is reconnected, if the battery is low on charge the alternator is connected regardless of throttle position, that is essentially it.
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      07-25-2009, 04:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Long story short, BMW ditched this system on U.S.-spec M3's as a cost cutting move.
I'd say it is highly speculative that the reason we did not get BER in NA is due to cost cutting.

Quote:
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I'd love to have this system on my car if I had the choice.
Me too, BER is cool, a bit more power to the wheels.
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      07-25-2009, 05:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Me too, BER is cool, a bit more power to the wheels.
Its actually a bit strange to drive with...the nature of the system is that while most times when accelerating you have the extra power, sometimes you don't, and there is a noticible difference as the car feels a little "off colour". Plus you get a lot of engine braking (or actually alternator braking) such that often you find yourself not having to use the brakes as much as other cars around you.....Maybe thats why they call it Brake energy recovery.

Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 07-26-2009 at 05:19 AM.
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