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      07-14-2009, 08:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtlexec View Post
Guys don't forget that diesel is MORE than regular gasoline in the US!

Whereas in Europe diesel is about 1/2 the price of gas.......




diesel has been cheaper than regular here in socal for about 6 months now
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      07-14-2009, 09:03 AM   #24
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The diesel in North America is now low-sulphur diesel. There is a shortage of refineries that can produce it. The diesel they sell in Europe, and most of the world, can't be sold in North America. Another reason diesel is more expensive here.
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      07-14-2009, 10:20 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtlexec View Post
Guys don't forget that diesel is MORE than regular gasoline in the US!

Whereas in Europe diesel is about 1/2 the price of gas.......



Diesel actually costs more than gas in some countries in Europe.
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      07-14-2009, 10:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobMason View Post
The US usage of diesel outstriped supply and the ability of US refineries to produce diesel a long time ago, so at least in the US, diesel powered cars will remain limited in number. Only a certain amount of diesel can be obtained from each barrel of crude, and we use all we can make and more no doubt. While Europeans dine on diesel, good ole US has to keep using gasoline.
Disagree, here in the northeast Diesel is not at all in short supply. My wife's next car will be a an X5 diesel. She loves SUVs (SAVs ) but until the BMW diesel came out the gas mileage and impact on the environment had her and even me frowning at that as an option. With the gas mileage being sick for a 5000+lb SUV and the reduced emissions she fell in love with it as did I. Hybrids were never the solution for me, in fact the X5 diesel pretty much outperforms every hybrid SUV out there in every category including gas mileage and emissions. So at the end of the day, people are ignoring diesels because of ignorance, not fact. There is plenty of diesel around many parts of this country, without it there would be no shipping industry. Yes, there are some areas where diesel is not readily available, but most areas have it, at least the major metropolitan areas.

However, as far as //M, not sure i could buy onto an //M having a Diesel under the bonnet.

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      07-14-2009, 10:51 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtlexec View Post
Guys don't forget that diesel is MORE than regular gasoline in the US!

Whereas in Europe diesel is about 1/2 the price of gas.......



Wrong, again in many areas the price gap is really closing so that 93 and diesel are really not that far apart. 5-10 cents a gallon while getting 10mpg or more better mileage plus reduced emissions I think is more than fair. If $2 more a week is really too much extra to spend on fuel, perhaps a 40k+ vehicle might not be the best choice.....


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      07-14-2009, 10:59 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Wrong, again in many areas the price gap is really closing so that 93 and diesel are really not that far apart. 5-10 cents a gallon while getting 10mpg or more better mileage plus reduced emissions I think is more than fair. If $2 more a week is really too much extra to spend on fuel, perhaps a 40k+ vehicle might not be the best choice.....


Cheers,
e46e92

exactly and here in socal, diesel is now cheaper than regular, if it stays like this then diesel could finally take off in the US. I also think that Audi's current TV commercial about sending it all back is quite good and far more realistic than the happy green fields prius add, it will be interesting to see how the new A3 TDI sells this fall
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      07-14-2009, 11:52 AM   #29
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People in the USA have a bad collective memory about diesels, due largely to poor experience with them in the early 80s. They were dirty, loud, rough, and worst of all, slow as molasses. My dad had a Mercedes 300 CD, '79 or '80I think, that had a 5 cylinder non-turbo diesel. It did O-60 MPH in "I'll get back to you" and it sounded a lot like a truck, but otherwise it was a pretty good car. A friend's parents had a Buick Park Avenue with one of the GM gas conversion diesels, and it was absolute junk. There are plenty of those 1970's and 1980's European diesels still on the road, but I'd bet it would be hard to find any of the American models in active use.

Regarding the redline, I drove both a Porsche GT3 Cup Car and a Dodge Viper Competition Coupe in the Speed World Challenge in 2005 and 2006. I was a Porsche fan and thought that it was a blast revving the modified GT3 engine to 8400 RPM or so, pumping out 450+ HP and requiring earplugs. When I first drove the Viper I was convinced that I wouldn't like it, what with it's "truck" engine and 'murican pedigree. After 5 laps on a cold January day I was able to match my best time ever in the GT3, and I came to really appreciate what torque meant in a race car. Looking at the MoTeC data showed how I was "working" like crazy to keep the GT3 in the powerband, while in the Viper I could leave it in 3rd gear for everything but the long straights. I'm sure that a really good driver could go fast in either car, but most any driver can go faster with a lot less effort in the Viper.

How does this relate to the discussion? High revving engines make interesting sounds and you might think that you're going faster, but that's not always the case. The Viper's redline is ~6000 RPM, but it's rare that you'd actually need to rev it that high because it isn't going to make you any faster. The "diesel like" torque curve allows the car to be effective from 1500 to 4500 RPM, and you can use the throttle to control the car without shifting like mad at every corner entry and exit. I still love the sound of a high-revving Ferrari, Porsche, or BMW GT car, but I now better appreciate that this isn't the only or best way to make power.

What BMW should consider is how to tune the sound of the diesel engine and combine it with a "Doppel-U / min" tachometer setting. The driver would see 2X the actual RPM, and would hear a higher-pitched "scream" to match, with the goal being to emulate the experience of driving a higher-revving gas engine. This isn't all that far removed from some of the initiatives to add sound to the hybrid engines, which are primarily focused on safety, although in theory they could emulate almost anything. With DCT transmissions and the various control mechanisms in modern cars it may be that almost any sort of experience could be available. While this may be too videogame-like for some, the fact is that most/all cars are becoming more like this over time. The accuracy of the simulation could be a great selling point, with the "M" cars providing a better simulation than the standard cars.

If you were to fast-forward and could drive a hypothetical 2015 M3, would it matter how it was powered if it was more fun than the current generation? A sub-3000 lb. weight with a 350HP 2.0L 4-cylinder tri-turbodiesel with KERS and more would probably be a lot of fun. The fact that it could also easily get 30+ MPG in the city and over 40 MPG on the highway wouldn't be a bad thing either.
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      07-14-2009, 12:09 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobMason View Post
The US usage of diesel outstriped supply and the ability of US refineries to produce diesel a long time ago, so at least in the US, diesel powered cars will remain limited in number. Only a certain amount of diesel can be obtained from each barrel of crude, and we use all we can make and more no doubt. While Europeans dine on diesel, good ole US has to keep using gasoline.
1bal of crude makes less diesel because it's a heavier distillate than gasoline. Heavier distillates have more energy which is why you get better mpgs per gallon of diesel vs gallon of gasoline. All things being equal you will use the same amount of energy driving X distance regardless of whether you use diesel or gasoline. The difference will be in volume of fuel burned.

Taxation of fuel is the primary driver (pun intended) in regards to whether your countrymen drive predominately diesel or gasoline powered cars. Europeans, in general, pay substainally higher fuel taxes(~60% of price per gallon) when compared to the U.S.(~15%). This high level of taxation in Europe smooths out fluctuations in fuel prices and lowers the cost difference between diesel and gasoline. Based on energy content alone diesel should be priced ~30% greater than gasoline since diesel engines are ~30% more efficient.

To further skew the cost/benefit analysis in the US. diesel is taxed at a slightly higher rate than gasoline (IIRC..Diesel sold for agricultural purposes aka Red Dye Diesel is taxed at a much lower rate or not taxed at all).

All of these factors and new emissions standards combined make diesel a hard sell in the US. What's interesting is that the '09 VW TDI was the first diesel to be 50 state legal with out urea injection. If their reliability gets back up I might just dump my 330 for one.

Last edited by F32Fleet; 07-15-2009 at 07:14 AM. Reason: housecleaning.
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      07-14-2009, 08:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja Ventureshield View Post
Interesting how we are the biggest M car purchaser but yet we don't get Individualize options the rest of the world gets. what horse crap is that.
Because we don't pay as much as the rest of the world.
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Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      07-14-2009, 11:06 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkipSauls View Post
People in the USA have a bad collective memory about diesels, due largely to poor experience with them in the early 80s. They were dirty, loud, rough, and worst of all, slow as molasses. My dad had a Mercedes 300 CD, '79 or '80I think, that had a 5 cylinder non-turbo diesel. It did O-60 MPH in "I'll get back to you" and it sounded a lot like a truck, but otherwise it was a pretty good car. A friend's parents had a Buick Park Avenue with one of the GM gas conversion diesels, and it was absolute junk. There are plenty of those 1970's and 1980's European diesels still on the road, but I'd bet it would be hard to find any of the American models in active use.
You know what. Things were no different in Europe back then. Even in the 90's Diesels were truly awful. I had a Citroen something or other, and was horrible. Its really only in the last 10 years that Diesel engines have started to really perform.

I traded my 2008 M3 for a X5 diesel. Although the x5 diesel is not as refined as the 3 series diesel, its truly a great engine for both cars.

I've driven from the West Coast to Colorado and never had issues finding gas stations supplying Diesel. Thats another misconception about diesel fuel in the USA.
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      07-14-2009, 11:08 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
I would never buy a diesel. There simply are not enough gas stations that serve diesel around where I live. That would be a major PITA.
Where the devil do you live that there are no gas stations providing diesel fuel?
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      07-15-2009, 12:25 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post
You know what. Things were no different in Europe back then. Even in the 90's Diesels were truly awful. I had a Citroen something or other, and was horrible. Its really only in the last 10 years that Diesel engines have started to really perform.

I traded my 2008 M3 for a X5 diesel. Although the x5 diesel is not as refined as the 3 series diesel, its truly a great engine for both cars.

I've driven from the West Coast to Colorado and never had issues finding gas stations supplying Diesel. Thats another misconception about diesel fuel in the USA.
All good points, but sadly lost on Americans. My local has $4500 off MSRP on all their diesels, this from people who normally negotiate sparingly over MSRP should give you an idea of the massive failure they probably have had trying to market those darn things.
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Originally Posted by Gordon Murray View Post
Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      07-15-2009, 12:28 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtlexec View Post
Guys don't forget that diesel is MORE than regular gasoline in the US!

Whereas in Europe diesel is about 1/2 the price of gas.......



Huge Misconception.

Diesel only cost more on the past few years because the refiners have had to invest in new technology due to tree hugger laws. We can expect it to be on par with regular petrol soon as the investment pays off.
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Originally Posted by Gordon Murray View Post
Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      07-19-2009, 09:25 PM   #36
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. . .one of the GM gas conversion diesels, and it was absolute junk.
+1

It's a fact that GM converted a low compression ratio gas engine to burn diesel by bumping up its compression well beyond the engine's design limits. They had to add glow plugs because diesel normally likes at least 14:1 and higher to ignite on its own. They are responsible for killing the consumer automotive and light truck diesel market in the US. The public's perception of the diesel was so bad that MB stopped shipping them to the US for years, which is only beginning to change in the last few years.

The potential energy of a given fuel is measured the same regardless of type e.g., gasoline, diesel, kerosene, natural gas, butane, etc. In the case of petroleum products there are only so many units to had in a given barrel of crude, no matter how you cut it. It comes down to refinement and what you name it. As someone else said, you may get a few more miles per gallon of diesel, but you use more crude to make it.

In effect, BMW is no different than all the other companies by jumping on the "Green" band wagon, which is translated to mean exploiting the public's ignorance about energy. It is no different than people thinking that driving an electric car means using no energy. They don't stop to ask themselves, "Where does the electricity come from to charge my car's battery?"

Sure, you may not pollute as much in a city, but regardless, pollution is occurring somewhere to make the electricity, and, fuels such as crude or natural gas, used tires, coal, nuclear, etc., are used to run a turbine that turns a generator that makes electricity.

The jury is still out concerning the number and types of pollutants natural gas makes. And, you need scrubbers for coal and burning tires, etc. Bottom line: there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Last edited by teagueAMX; 07-19-2009 at 09:45 PM.
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