BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
PYSPEED
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-24-2009, 02:24 PM   #67
riyatch
Lieutenant
11

 
riyatch's Avatar
 
Drives: e90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vegas


Posts: 470
iTrader: (1)

drove a 335 extensively and had a lot of fun with it but it is not even in the same league as the M3. the M provides a certain feeling and emotion that the 335 will never have. sure you can mods the hell out of the 335 and make it a fast car but you can do that with any car. any car can be made to go fast and handle well (at the expense of comfort and daily usability), but they will never have the same feeling and stir the same emotions as a car that was engineered to near perfection. M cars, P cars, etc provide the driver with a certain feeling which is why so many choose to purchase them instead of evo's and 335's.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 03:40 PM   #68
Hamann330
New Member
2

 
Drives: Audi S4
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada


Posts: 20
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by riyatch View Post
drove a 335 extensively and had a lot of fun with it but it is not even in the same league as the M3. the M provides a certain feeling and emotion that the 335 will never have. sure you can mods the hell out of the 335 and make it a fast car but you can do that with any car. any car can be made to go fast and handle well (at the expense of comfort and daily usability), but they will never have the same feeling and stir the same emotions as a car that was engineered to near perfection. M cars, P cars, etc provide the driver with a certain feeling which is why so many choose to purchase them instead of evo's and 335's.
That certain feeling is what I want to find out about M3 vs 335.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 03:54 PM   #69
Robert B
Observer
3

 
Robert B's Avatar
 
Drives: F10 M5 Monte Carlo Bue
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Diego


Posts: 38
iTrader: (0)

For me, there is no comparison between the 335 and M3. It does not matter how much you mod the 335, you will never have that rush that comes from the S65 motor racing to the upper reaches of its red line. I loved my E46 M3 for the same reason. The only other cars that I know of that come close to that experience are the Ferrari V8's and the Honda S2000. You can also get the same type of rush from a Japanese sport bike. The 335 that I test drove lacked a soul when compared to the M3 and sounded funny. If you want to mod a turbo motor, why even bother with a 335? Why not mod an EVO, A4, WRX or an old Eclipse Turbo (I owned one 20 years ago -- lots of mods were available for big HP gains)?
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 04:27 PM   #70
bmwrocket
Grigs
United_States
1

 
Drives: '08 White M3 Coupe - sld
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bergen County, NJ


Posts: 22
iTrader: (0)

ahhhh... M3 with DCT is made in heaven... ability to tweak your throttle, suspension, and traction is a blast. Sure the 335 is fast but the V8 414hp still kicks its ass with the double clutch... really no need to make it any faster. If you have the money, do yourself a favor and load up an M3... will bring more smiles and andrenalin than a dime a dozen 335. HIT IT!!!!
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 04:28 PM   #71
bobbyd1961
Banned
34

 
Drives: 2009 M3 sedan LeMans Blue
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: new jersey


Posts: 2,411
iTrader: (0)

i had a 335 for 18 months it was fast then the fuel pump problem started . 7 times in the shop in 30 days. upgraded to M3 . no comparison m3 absolutely blows away the 335 in every possible category . the one i was shocked about was the ride. m3 takes bumps great while the 335 xi was terrible it felt like the front end was going to fall off . thank the lord for the fuel pump problem i would have never got the m3. what a blessing in disguise
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 04:32 PM   #72
bmwrocket
Grigs
United_States
1

 
Drives: '08 White M3 Coupe - sld
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bergen County, NJ


Posts: 22
iTrader: (0)

when u forget about what M means... please go back to the good old link...http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...05441791121280
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 09:17 PM   #73
joeybmew
Private
United_States
7

 
joeybmew's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: So cali


Posts: 79
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to joeybmew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamann330 View Post
Hi guys,

I am new to this board, I own a 2007 Audi S4 and a 2009 Mercedes Benz C350 4Matic. My previous ride was a 2001 BMW 330xi, therefore I am always a fan of BMW but I just like to try something new when it comes to purchasing vehicles.

So for you M3 owners, why did you pick M3 over 335i? A fI engine is easier to tune up and it can be as fast (or faster) than the M3, then why did you pick M3 over a 335i?

Anyone?
DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS SHIT AGAIN.
NO MATTER HOW FAST U MAKE A 335I
NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT GETS MORE FASTER THEN THE M3
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO IN THE END THE 335I IS STILL A 335I AND AN M3 WILL ALWAYS BE AN M3 -------------THE END-----
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 10:37 PM   #74
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by imballin2day View Post
This thing is really getting out of hand. Its really not fair in comparing a modified car to a stock car. You say those $800 mods will beat an M. Ok. How about the M gets an ecu tune for itself and then lets see how it holds up.
They make an ECU flash for the M3 that's $800 or less?
From what I heard the ECU flashes for the M3's do very little (like 10 hp at best).



Quote:
Originally Posted by imballin2day View Post
Please lets not forget the video Sticky made a while back when the guy thought his ecu tuned 335 was the fastest thing ever. If you wanna see it look here.
.
Instead of using a modified M3 vs a 335i with an old, weak tune as your point of argument, maybe you should look up the current tunes for the 335i.
It might upset you a bit, but a tune only 335i can run equal to (M3 DCT) and slightly ahead of (M3 6MT) a stock M3.

Heck I ran a modified M3 with intake, exhaust, pulley and tune (and he was lowered and some weight removed) and stayed even from 40-90 than from 90-130 he only pulled about 1 CL and was pulling from there. But I was in a tune only 335i, no other mods, no weight reduction.
If he was tune only like me, he'd of lost by a bit, if he was stock he'd of lost by more.



There is no doubt the M3 is an overall better car, but the fact still remains, the 335i is a DAMN good car for $15-20k less.
And for $500 tune the 335i is every bit as fast in a straight line.

People with M3's keep bring up track times and so forth, but my bet is 90% of them don't take their cars to the track.
And 90% of M3 owners won't drive their cars hard enough even on canyon roads to exceed the limits of the 335i either.

However, 95% of the time, the torque and low end power of the 335i's engine is an advantage over the M3's.
And the lower price, lower insurance, better gas mileage of the 335i is also a bonus.

I'd take an M3 in a heartbeat, but honestly like SO many other M3 owners on this board, would miss the low end torque.
That's why to many a C63 is the best of both worlds.

To the OP, just go drive the two cars.
And sit down and figure out what your priorities in a car are.
If you plan to track, love the sound of the V8 (who doesn't really) and want the extra handling of the M3, but all means get the M3, you can't lose.
But if you don't need that ultimate handling, and can "live" with a car that has very good handling/braking (better than 95% of the cars on the road anyway) and want low end grunt plus save yourself $15-20k right away and several thousands more in gas, and insurance costs, get the 335i.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2009, 10:46 PM   #75
consolidated
Lieutenant Colonel
46

 
consolidated's Avatar
 
Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas


Posts: 1,704
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
There is no doubt the M3 is an overall better car
BINGO
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 12:44 AM   #76
imballin2day
Banned
United_States
32

 
Drives: M3 Dct Coupe
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: LA


Posts: 571
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to imballin2day
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
They make an ECU flash for the M3 that's $800 or less?
From what I heard the ECU flashes for the M3's do very little (like 10 hp at best).





Instead of using a modified M3 vs a 335i with an old, weak tune as your point of argument, maybe you should look up the current tunes for the 335i.
It might upset you a bit, but a tune only 335i can run equal to (M3 DCT) and slightly ahead of (M3 6MT) a stock M3.

Heck I ran a modified M3 with intake, exhaust, pulley and tune (and he was lowered and some weight removed) and stayed even from 40-90 than from 90-130 he only pulled about 1 CL and was pulling from there. But I was in a tune only 335i, no other mods, no weight reduction.
If he was tune only like me, he'd of lost by a bit, if he was stock he'd of lost by more.



There is no doubt the M3 is an overall better car, but the fact still remains, the 335i is a DAMN good car for $15-20k less.
And for $500 tune the 335i is every bit as fast in a straight line.

People with M3's keep bring up track times and so forth, but my bet is 90% of them don't take their cars to the track.
And 90% of M3 owners won't drive their cars hard enough even on canyon roads to exceed the limits of the 335i either.

However, 95% of the time, the torque and low end power of the 335i's engine is an advantage over the M3's.
And the lower price, lower insurance, better gas mileage of the 335i is also a bonus.

I'd take an M3 in a heartbeat, but honestly like SO many other M3 owners on this board, would miss the low end torque.
That's why to many a C63 is the best of both worlds.

To the OP, just go drive the two cars.
And sit down and figure out what your priorities in a car are.
If you plan to track, love the sound of the V8 (who doesn't really) and want the extra handling of the M3, but all means get the M3, you can't lose.
But if you don't need that ultimate handling, and can "live" with a car that has very good handling/braking (better than 95% of the cars on the road anyway) and want low end grunt plus save yourself $15-20k right away and several thousands more in gas, and insurance costs, get the 335i.

I agree with you 100% The 335 is an amazing car for the price. It was my dream car when it came out and I was fortunate enough to get an m3.

Your tuned 335 will keep up with an m3. Ok fine. Thats not my problem. I love the M3 not only because of its straight line speed. I love its styling ( hood vents, bulge, side skirts, and rear end), I love the dct, and all the little things like the steering wheel.

You can make the argument that your 335 will keep up in a straight line. But thats not the reason I chose this car. The 335 will never feel, sound or excite as much as an m3 does. Good for the price. But honestly, whoever says the 335 is right there with the m3, please be serious. You got the straight line speed, but thats it.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 09:56 AM   #77
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by imballin2day View Post
I agree with you 100% The 335 is an amazing car for the price. It was my dream car when it came out and I was fortunate enough to get an m3.

Your tuned 335 will keep up with an m3. Ok fine. Thats not my problem. I love the M3 not only because of its straight line speed. I love its styling ( hood vents, bulge, side skirts, and rear end), I love the dct, and all the little things like the steering wheel.

You can make the argument that your 335 will keep up in a straight line. But thats not the reason I chose this car. The 335 will never feel, sound or excite as much as an m3 does. Good for the price. But honestly, whoever says the 335 is right there with the m3, please be serious. You got the straight line speed, but thats it.
I agree with what you said too.
However, as listed there is more than just "straight line" speed the 335i has over M3. Performance wise, true that is it. But for many, there's tunability, daily driving low end torque, better fuel economy, lower insurance costs, lower overall price.
Sure that may not be a concern for some, but for many who bought M3's they are pushing their comfort level of price, especially in this economy.

As I stated, the M3 is a better overall performance (track) car.
But how often do M3 owners take their cars to the track, and of those who do, it's probably only once or twice a year.
You see many people with M3's mentioning the lack of low end torque in their day to day driving (where they spend 90% of their time in their car).
You won't find one single post from a 335i owner (and certainly not one from a tuned 335i owner) complaining of lack of power or poise in 98% of when they drive the car. It's the opposite in fact.
Where the M3 has no complaints, the track for the 2-3% of where maybe 10% of the owners will take it, the 10% of owners with a 335i will complain about the track performance of the 335i.
It's usually 1 thing:
heat soak and having to tone it down to keep from going into safety limp mode. Not an issue on cool days, but nothing a $1000 aftermarket FMIC doesn't cure.
And you'll hear some complaints of lack of a true LSD and some brake fade too. LSD is a couple grand, and brake fade, I've heard that on M3 as well.
Upgraded pads and lines and fluid usually solve that.

But again, that's an issue for like 2% of owners.
So as I agree with all your points of the M3 (looks better, meaner, etc) and sounds fantastic (no doubt) and has the better seats, steering wheel, etc etc.
Again that doesn't always make it the "better" car for the 90%+ people who won't use the M3 to it's potential (probably won't use 335i to it's potential either).

To be honest, that's what makes the C63 AMG so appealing to many.
Has all the low end torque of a tuned 335i, but has the high end pull of the NA V8. Handles better than the 335i and nearly as equal (steering feel isn't quite as good and gets oversteer happy easier) as the M3.
Plus it's cheaper, and at least for me, was significantly less on insurance costs.
The drawback, no manual for those who want it.

In any case, each car has it's purpose. Nothing wrong with somebody who misses low end torque (and doesn't use the M3 to it's potential anyway) wanting to get a 335i for what it offers (and he'll still probably not use it to it's potential either).
Oh, and since DCT was offered in the 335i in Europe for 2009, it's very probable it will be in the 2010 335i's here in the states.

Regards.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 10:12 AM   #78
330CIZHP
Major
Canada
35

 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta


Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

Regardless of what 335 owners like to call "advantages" of 335 like low-end torque for daily driving (300 ft-lbs@3900 rpm in M3 are way more than adequate for every day driving, 335 owners make it sound like a piddly 150 ft-lbs at a lofty 7600 rpm of an S2000), daily drivability, like it or not, if given a choice, NO ONE will ever pick a 335 over an M3 whatsoever. If one cannot afford an M3, a 335 is a great alternative for sporty commuter car. Nothing more or nothing less. Maybe, that is why I have counted atleast 15 people that have ditched their 335 (many of them tuned) for M3s.

335 is great for what it is intended to be, which is a 3-series daily driver car with sportiness more than its competitors such as, Audi A4, C-series Mercedes or Lexus IS350, but it is not comparable to M3 in any shape or form.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
But for many, there's tunability, daily driving low end torque, better fuel economy, lower insurance costs, lower overall price.
Sure that may not be a concern for some, but for many who bought M3's they are pushing their comfort level of price, especially in this economy.

As I stated, the M3 is a better overall performance (track) car.
But how often do M3 owners take their cars to the track, and of those who do, it's probably only once or twice a year.
.

Last edited by 330CIZHP; 06-25-2009 at 10:39 AM.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 10:23 AM   #79
C17MooseDriver
Captain
United_States
13

 
C17MooseDriver's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 AW M3 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX


Posts: 868
iTrader: (0)

I considered and test drove the 335i. Good performance at a reasonable cost and descent gas mileage.

But I test drove the m3 first, which might have altered my perception a bit. Afterwards when I drove the 335i, it just didn't have the edge, that feel that makes the M3 what it is. If I drove the 335i first, I might have been completely satisfied, but I didn't, and now I'm a happy M3 owner.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 11:43 AM   #80
1cleanm3
Brigadier General
Armenia
303

 
1cleanm3's Avatar
 
Drives: ///E92M3*RR Sport*Prius
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: the 818


Posts: 3,606
iTrader: (7)

the torque difference is pretty big, spend some time in both and drive them, youll see what everyone means..

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Regardless of what 335 owners like to call "advantages" of 335 like low-end torque for daily driving (300 ft-lbs@3900 rpm in M3 are way more than adequate for every day driving, 335 owners make it sound like a piddly 150 ft-lbs at a lofty 7600 rpm of an S2000), daily drivability, like it or not, if given a choice, NO ONE will ever pick a 335 over an M3 whatsoever. If one cannot afford an M3, a 335 is a great alternative for sporty commuter car. Nothing more or nothing less. Maybe, that is why I have counted atleast 15 people that have ditched their 335 (many of them tuned) for M3s.

335 is great for what it is intended to be, which is a 3-series daily driver car with sportiness more than its competitors such as, Audi A4, C-series Mercedes or Lexus IS350, but it is not comparable to M3 in any shape or form.
__________________
HRE + CHALLENGE + KW V3 + GINTANI + ARKYM + YOKOHAMA AD08
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 11:59 AM   #81
TTG
...
United_States
44

 
TTG's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Seattle, WA


Posts: 2,874
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by imballin2day View Post
Your tuned 335 will keep up with an m3. Ok fine. Thats not my problem. I love the M3 not only because of its straight line speed. I love its styling ( hood vents, bulge, side skirts, and rear end), I love the dct, and all the little things like the steering wheel.

You can make the argument that your 335 will keep up in a straight line. But thats not the reason I chose this car. The 335 will never feel, sound or excite as much as an m3 does. Good for the price. But honestly, whoever says the 335 is right there with the m3, please be serious. You got the straight line speed, but thats it.
You could of gotten most of that on a ZMP 335i.....

I am getting ready to order a 2010 M3 but not because of that "M" feeling, exclusivity, handling and all of that blah blah. On most US roads 335i will hold its own and will most likely match the handling and performance of M3 and since I never track my cars (like most of M3 owners) I don't care about the improved handling over 335i.

In other words: if you are looking for exclusivity over 335 (not that M3's are that exclusive.....dime a dozen in Seattle / Bellevue area and there iss a great reason why there are still 2008 "exclusive" M3's sitting on dealer lots), jet engine fuel economy, high insurance.....oh and a $20K depreciation on 1st year alone..... M3 is your car.....

I am still ordering one knowing all of the above..... i just want a V8.... That is where M3 got me :-)

Peace.
__________________
Retired: 2011 E92 M3 AW w/ Silver Novillo ZCP, ZTP, ZPP, 494, 6FL, 507, 302 & 415.....ED April 29th, 2010
Retired: 2007 E92 335i -Space Gray, Black Leatherette + Alum, Nav, ZCW, ZSP, PDC, CA & Sunshade.....ED Oct 19th, 2006
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 12:13 PM   #82
330CIZHP
Major
Canada
35

 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta


Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
the torque difference is pretty big, spend some time in both and drive them, youll see what everyone means..
My real point was 300 ft-lbs of the M3 at 3900 rpm. 90% of which is available at 1800 rpm is way more than anyone needs for daily driving. You 335 guys make it sound like it is a piddly amount of 150 ft-lbs that peaks at 7500 rpm or so like the S2000. So daily drivability is nothing more than excuse. M3 is just as fine for everyday driving where 4000 - 5000 rpm is the max rpm needed.

I am sure if BMW did not put daily driving as a priority and went for all out performance, it could have been like the M5/M6 where it gets more torque of around 315 - 320 ft-lbs@5500 - 6000 rpm, but makes the engine much peakier, less torquier and less daily drivable where all the power is concentrated above 6000 rpm.

Now that you have mentioned, I already have spent a lot of time in both and was quick to realize the "deceptive" butt dyno telling me things contrary to the facts between 2000 - 3000 rpm.

Dynos tell the truth. Not the butt dyno. Since butt dyno associates the "rate of change of acceleration" with how quick the car is and not the actual acceleration. In simple words, a car with flat torque curve will feel slower than a car with no power and then suddenly a huge surge, but still less than the car with flat torque curve.

Compare dynos of stock cars super imposed and then factor in the more aggressive 3.8:1 final drive of the M3. Subtract the 100 pounds of extra weight of the M3. In reality, you should end up with M3 is just as torquey down low,if not more.

M3 has a much flatter torque curve staying nearly peak from 3500 right uptill 7600 rpm with no peaks and valleys. 90% of the peak is available through out the rev range from 1800 rpm right uptil 8300 rpm. Just a flat line. Not to mention the more aggressive final drive should make overall gearing shorter meaning more torque to the wheels.

The 335 on the other hand will FEEL torquier down low because it lags first and then all the torque hits hard between 2000 - 2500 rpm and then builds up quickly over the next 2000 rpm. The rate of change of acceleration makes it feel more torquier. Not the fact that it has more torque available at wheels since it does not.

Last edited by 330CIZHP; 06-25-2009 at 12:31 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 01:08 PM   #83
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
My real point was 300 ft-lbs of the M3 at 3900 rpm. 90% of which is available at 1800 rpm is way more than anyone needs for daily driving. You 335 guys make it sound like it is a piddly amount of 150 ft-lbs that peaks at 7500 rpm or so like the S2000. So daily drivability is nothing more than excuse. M3 is just as fine for everyday driving where 4000 - 5000 rpm is the max rpm needed.
It's not the "335i guys making it sound" like a lack of low end torque in the M3.
It's the M3 drivers. Don't point fingers.
Oh and the M3 peaks at 295 at crank and yes, 3900 rpms is high when you figure that the 335i has 5 more but only a few hundred rpms off idle.

Personally I think your getting all agro over it. I doubt highly you've driven a tuned 335i.
Drive it, if you haven't. If you don't think the huge torque push at around town driving isn't thrilling, then I guess you don't really like large displacement V8 levels of torque.
The 4.0 V8 in the M3 is a marvel (but it's a tiny V8...actually more of a 6 cylinder size), but M3 owners and 335i owners alike complain of it's lack of torque down low. Magazine editors too.
The fact of the matter is, low end torque is a beautiful thing in city traffic driving. Quick point and squirt lane changes and passing without having to downshift or ever going above 4000 rpms is nice. And again, that's what 90% of owners of M3's or 335i's are doing with their cars anyway, driving in traffic most of the time.

BTW, the S2000 not only revvs higher than the M3 but also weighs a whole lot less, so 150 lbs feet of torque in it, is probably like 250 in the M3 power to weight wise, so that's a bad comparo on your part.
And I wouldn't want the torqueless S2000 either.

Lastly, even BMW themselves are seeing the light (as I knew they would and predicted many month ago) that the next M3 will be a turbocharged 6
Best of both worlds, low end power, V8 like pull, better gas mileage, cheaper insurance. Trust me, they wouldn't be dumping the V8 if they were getting overwhelming calls from owners that they want to keep the V8 and weren't asking for more low end power for daily driving.
Turbo 6 also means less weight too.

As much as I love the V8, it's the F/I 6 in the next M3 that I'd be interested most in.
3.5 liters
Forced injected
420+ hp
400+ lbs feet of torque
7500 rpm redline
50-100 lbs less weight
2-3 mpg better fuel econmy
And then let the tuning begin for 500+ hp

What's not to love about that?

But so people don't get even more agro. as stated, overall performance car there is no doubt the M3 is a better car than the 335i
But I also disagree with whomever said anyone who can afford the M3 will get it over the 335i. I know millionaires who own a 328i, as they don't even feel they need the 335i for daily driving. Just because you can "afford" it doesn't mean you want or need the top performance model. That's silly and foolish to think so.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 01:18 PM   #84
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

This will give you a visual idea of the difference in power between a tuned N54 engine and the stock M3.
At 2000 rpms, which IS daily driving rpms (not 3900) the tuned (and this is a moderate flash tune) is making significantly more torque (and HP too). The M3 doesn't make more power than the tuned N54 until after 6500 rpms.
Plus the M3 weighs like 150 lbs more than the 335i so the difference in lower end power is even great when power to weight is applied.
This is why an M3 has to stay above 6500 rpms to keep up with a tuned 335i, and the opposite is true for the tuned 335i, it really doesn't want to go above 6500 rpms as it's power drops off significantly after that.
2000-3000 rpms is "everyday" traffic driving conditions for most in large cities. At that point the tuned N54 has 100 lbs feet of torque more than the M3.
That's what people are referring to as lack of low end torque in the M3 when compared to a tuned 335i. So you know at 3000 rpms, the stock N54 engine has about 280 lbs feet. Still 30 lbs ft more than stock M3 down low (in a lighter car too).

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/m3-vs-135DME.jpg
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 01:26 PM   #85
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTG View Post
You could of gotten most of that on a ZMP 335i.....

I am getting ready to order a 2010 M3 but not because of that "M" feeling, exclusivity, handling and all of that blah blah. On most US roads 335i will hold its own and will most likely match the handling and performance of M3 and since I never track my cars (like most of M3 owners) I don't care about the improved handling over 335i.

In other words: if you are looking for exclusivity over 335 (not that M3's are that exclusive.....dime a dozen in Seattle / Bellevue area and there iss a great reason why there are still 2008 "exclusive" M3's sitting on dealer lots), jet engine fuel economy, high insurance.....oh and a $20K depreciation on 1st year alone..... M3 is your car.....

I am still ordering one knowing all of the above..... i just want a V8.... That is where M3 got me :-)

Peace.

I'd very possibly done the same if the M3 was out in summer of 2007 when I got my e92 335i.
I almost dumped the 335i last month for the M3 too, but then found out my insurance was going to over double for the M3.
That combined with the higher payments and worse gas mileage.
Well the M3 wasn't worth a total of $500-600 a month more than my tune only 335i when all is considered. For that I could get another car as a beater, or a bike, or take two vacations a year.
The M3 just wasn't worth that much more when 90% of my driving is city driving and the tuned 335i is beautiful for that. The other 10% is canyon and some strip driving, the 335i does alright there too. Yes, I wish for a bit more in the canyons than the 335i can do sometimes, but it's a small price to pay for the sizeable price difference.
Strangely a C63 AMG is only $110 a year more to insure than my 335i.
Which is $1000 a year less than the M3.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 01:53 PM   #86
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post

The 335 on the other hand will FEEL torquier down low because it lags first and then all the torque hits hard between 2000 - 2500 rpm and then builds up quickly over the next 2000 rpm. The rate of change of acceleration makes it feel more torquier. Not the fact that it has more torque available at wheels since it does not.
I just want to say, this is funny. It's not a "feeling" it's a fact.
M3 peaks at 295 lbs ft @ 3900 rpms
335i peaks at 300 lbs ft but is from 1400-5000 rpms

So even as mentioned on dyno chart, 335i has more torque than M3 at any given point in the rev range. There is NO time that the M3 has more torque than the 335i, even stock.
M3 weighs 133 lbs more too.

If you are so confident the M3 has equal or more torque down low than 335i.
Bet your car in one of these torque testing races:

2nd gear start 2000 rpms.
Both cars nail it but have to shift at 5000 rpms and go to 100 mph.
Which car do you think will be ahead?

Or you could do this test:
4th gear start at 30 mph. Nail it and go to 100 mph never shifting.
Which car do you think will be ahead?

Or a freeway test:
Be in 6th gear at 50 mph.
Nail it in 6th and go to 80 mph. As you might in a freeway passing without downshifting scenario
Which car do you think will be ahead?

Hint: You'd lose your M3 if you take those bets.

Those are tests of low end torque. Your foolish if you think the M3 has equal or more torque down low than a 335i
If the M3 didn't weigh 133 lbs more it might have a chance with it's better gearing, but without and the lack of the low end torque, it'll lose all three, the worst in the first two scenarios.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 01:55 PM   #87
kmarei
Major General
Egypt
275

 
kmarei's Avatar
 
Drives: 1988 E30 M3 Evo II
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA


Posts: 6,481
iTrader: (33)

Garage List
Stock M3 is faster than Stock 335i
sure if you spend a lot and void your warranty you can make the 335 faster
but hey, you can spend a lot of money and make the 328 faster than the M3 if you wanted to
just cuz you can
doesn't mean you should

and i guarantee you
if money was no object
10/10 would choose the M3
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2009, 02:09 PM   #88
Driver72
Brigadier General
193

 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California


Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Stock M3 is faster than Stock 335i
sure if you spend a lot and void your warranty you can make the 335 faster
but hey, you can spend a lot of money and make the 328 faster than the M3 if you wanted to
just cuz you can
doesn't mean you should
I agree stock for stock no problem M3 is faster, that's a no brainer.
"spend a lot and void your warranty" $500 is not a lot to make the 335i as faster or faster than stock M3. Put in $20 of 100 Octane and raise the map on that $500 tune and the stock M3 is bye bye by 3-4 CL's. That's not a lot.
You can void your warranty on an M3 by putting an intake or mods on it too. No difference there.


Here's a guy who spent maybe $1000 in performance mods to his 335i (DCI, Scoops, and JB3)
And a guy who probably spent twice as much $2000 on mods for his M3 (exhaust)
Both on 93 Octane both have passenger.
JB3 is on pump gas Map 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxfFE_-w
Just add Rbo to the end of that to see results.

The M3 got the jump yet the 335i still reeled it in and passed.
That's not "a lot" to make 335i faster. Goes to show to all he'd of needed was JB3 to run equal to the M3 with an exhaust.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
and i guarantee you
if money was no object
10/10 would choose the M3
What will you "guarantee" me?
By "guarantee" do you mean "bet" me?
If so, let's put it in writing and I'll show you someone who can afford the M3 but has a 335i in a few seconds. Me for one.
And I'll show you many, many more (Terry at BMS for two, Shiv at Vishnu for three, then probably 1/2 the guys on e90post many of which are doctors, lawyers, engineers, executives, etc.
Then all you'll need to do is sign over your M3 title to me and that issue is over.

Last edited by Driver72; 06-25-2009 at 02:54 PM.
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:45 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST