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      05-31-2009, 01:27 PM   #1
Year's_End
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How much does it matter to you?

When comparing cars people tend to argue over marginal differences in performance. Car A hits 60 a few tenths quicker than Car B. This car pulls .05g more than that car. This car traps a few mph fast than the other. This will lap the nurburgring 5 seconds faster than the other one. Etc etc.

In the real world, it really doesn't make a difference, unless you have to have the faster car, be it only by a little.

I should say that this pertains more to cars that are positioned to compete with one another, like the M3, C63, IS-F and RS4.

Does it really matter if one of those is faster than the other? On paper maybe, but I couldn't give a rat's ass if I had the faster or slower car of the bunch.

To me, it comes down to the driving experience. I don't see the point in owning the faster car on paper if it's not as involving or not as fun. I see so many arguments on this forum that go 10+ pages-long about how the GTR can (or can't) achieve its fabled 'Ring time. Honestly, who cares? Does it really matter?

That's what I'm wondering. How do you all see it.
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      05-31-2009, 02:06 PM   #2
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im with you. other cars may be faster in a straight line. who cares dont drag race. others are marginally faster on the track, not many, who cares. the m3 is such a good combination that i think overall it is above and beyond most anything else. new zo6's are better on the track as are most of the p-cars but not to a huge degree and our cars look sooo damn good.
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      05-31-2009, 02:19 PM   #3
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Those few tenths do make a difference, especially if they can be easily duplicated in the real world. But most car buying decisions involve more factors than just speed and handling.


If you're looking at an SUV to haul the family around speed and handling might not be as important as creature comforts.
If you're looking at a really fast DD those same comforts may not be as important but I doubt you'll want to drive something as harsh as a Lotus around.

Etc...


Speed, handling, useability, practicality, quality, style, and service can all be moved around depending on what you're looking for.
I know most people here aren't huge GT-R fans because it's not a pure enough track car. I like it beacuse I can lay to waste pretty much anything anytime and still feel comfortable taking a road trip with it, driving my boy around in, or goiing to the grocery store.


Oh I forgot, price. That's probably the biggest factor for anyone. Or we'd all be driving Cayenne Turbo S's, Veyrons, and 599s around.
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      05-31-2009, 07:07 PM   #4
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I like it beacuse I can lay to waste pretty much anything anytime and still feel comfortable taking a road trip with it, driving my boy around in, or goiing to the grocery store.
Ooooh. You're so screwed. I'm calling Nissan and your warrantee is out the window

I couldn't care less on whats faster. There's always going to be something. I follow mags and shows religiously and get a hankerin' as you say down south. Then if the planets are all aligned just right it all works out and I get to buy one out and life is good as long as it lives up to your expectations. The M3 has surpassed mine. I moved to Canada fully intending to buy a Z06 but was so disappointed by the overall package (mainly interior) that I just couldn't do it.

Right now I have a hankerin' for a small 4 seater plane and I'm working on the planets to get them aligned so I can make it happen. Seems like the perfect time to buy.
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      06-01-2009, 01:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
Those few tenths do make a difference, especially if they can be easily duplicated in the real world. But most car buying decisions involve more factors than just speed and handling.


If you're looking at an SUV to haul the family around speed and handling might not be as important as creature comforts.
If you're looking at a really fast DD those same comforts may not be as important but I doubt you'll want to drive something as harsh as a Lotus around.

Etc...


Speed, handling, useability, practicality, quality, style, and service can all be moved around depending on what you're looking for.
I know most people here aren't huge GT-R fans because it's not a pure enough track car. I like it beacuse I can lay to waste pretty much anything anytime and still feel comfortable taking a road trip with it, driving my boy around in, or goiing to the grocery store.


Oh I forgot, price. That's probably the biggest factor for anyone. Or we'd all be driving Cayenne Turbo S's, Veyrons, and 599s around.
I disagree. Those few tenths don't make a difference. I'm saying fast is fast - no matter how you look at it - and being a few tenths faster than the guy next to you on a road isn't a big deal. so what if the other car is faster.

I'm not talking bout suvs.
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      06-01-2009, 10:52 AM   #6
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Until a recent change of opinion, it mattered quite a bit to me....

But recently after test driving the Challenger R/T and the GTR, I sort of had an epiphany. What makes a car worthwhile to me is not a 0-60 time or a skidpad number, nor even whether's it's interior is suitable for a king, it's much more indefinable. By all accounts the Challenger R/T has no place being compared with an M3 wherease to many (obviously not all) the GTR is a superior car. But of the two cars the only one I found myself thinking of a day or two after the test drive was the Challenger. It handled more sloppily than the M, didn't have nearly the acceleration of the GTR, adn the interior was adequate at best. And yet, I'd consider swapping out the M3 for it. It's appeal is undefinable. It's just *fun*.

I haven't thought about the GTR once since driving it. In fact, wherease before I tried it, I kept thinking about it and how it compared, now having had the chance to sample it, it has lost much of its mystique to me. I'm sure for people that regularly track their cars, the numbers *do* really matter, but for someone like me, I've decided they really are just the beginning of the evaluation...
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      06-01-2009, 11:10 AM   #7
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After you have decided on door count, number of seats, price, looks, etc, etc. only one thing should be considered after you have narrowed down your list of possible choices.

How it makes you feel while driving it.

And I might add that this has nothing to do with hanging the tail out or driving with your pants on fire as neither of these happen on a daily basis. No what is important is if you get a buzz just driving along at a normal pace, or cruising, even sitting in traffic, heck taking your mom to the shop for groceries.

As long as you get a buzz simply driving the normal 9 to 5 then those minor issues of the last tenth to 60 or having the best lap time are just that.............minor issues.
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      06-01-2009, 11:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
I disagree. Those few tenths don't make a difference. I'm saying fast is fast - no matter how you look at it - and being a few tenths faster than the guy next to you on a road isn't a big deal. so what if the other car is faster.

I'm not talking bout suvs.

What are you talking about? Why bother getting a performance vehicle? Why buy an M? Why not a 335i and save a few bucks? Why bother with an S63 when an S550 is still quick? Why do people buy a Z06 when a standard C6 is really fast? etc.

Answer: because a few tenths are important to people.
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      06-01-2009, 12:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
What are you talking about? Why bother getting a performance vehicle? Why buy an M? Why not a 335i and save a few bucks? Why bother with an S63 when an S550 is still quick? Why do people buy a Z06 when a standard C6 is really fast? etc.

Answer: because a few tenths are important to people.
Good point. Its nice to have the fastest car. But of course if youre not racing you should get what makes you happy. I think their is a medium that can be found between what is fast enough for someone and at the same time have it be that car that gives them a great feeling while just cruising. And it may be conceded but I know everyone on this forum would love to be able to say they have the fastest car
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      06-01-2009, 12:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
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What are you talking about? Why bother getting a performance vehicle? Why buy an M? Why not a 335i and save a few bucks? Why bother with an S63 when an S550 is still quick? Why do people buy a Z06 when a standard C6 is really fast? etc.

Answer: because a few tenths are important to people.
Relax man.

You still missed my argument. First off, all the comparisons you just drew are durastic. C6 - Z06, S550 - S63, M3 - 335i. I'm talking about direct comparos. 335i - IS350/S5. M5 - E63/RS6. They're all in such a tight group yet people will argue to no end about which one performs better. It doesn't matter in real world driving. Unless, of course, you want to feel better sbout yourself by having the faster car.

Maybe I'm just too relaxed about it.
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      06-01-2009, 12:05 PM   #11
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After you have decided on door count, number of seats, price, looks, etc, etc. only one thing should be considered after you have narrowed down your list of possible choices.

How it makes you feel while driving it.

And I might add that this has nothing to do with hanging the tail out or driving with your pants on fire as neither of these happen on a daily basis. No what is important is if you get a buzz just driving along at a normal pace, or cruising, even sitting in traffic, heck taking your mom to the shop for groceries.

As long as you get a buzz simply driving the normal 9 to 5 then those minor issues of the last tenth to 60 or having the best lap time are just that.............minor issues.
Well said Footie.
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      06-01-2009, 01:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
What are you talking about? Why bother getting a performance vehicle? Why buy an M? Why not a 335i and save a few bucks? Why bother with an S63 when an S550 is still quick? Why do people buy a Z06 when a standard C6 is really fast? etc.

Answer: because a few tenths are important to people.
I think you are missing his point. When you compare M3 vs 335i and Z06 vs C6. The M3 and Z06 have a much different involvement factor. It isn't the fact the M3 is a few tenths faster, it is the fact the car invokes a completely different feeling when driven at the limit. You are one with the car. I could have fun all day long on a track in a Miata/S2000, because the involvement factor of the cars. A feeling that some cars three times their price can't replicate on a track.

Although I agree with you on the S63 vs S550 comparison. A big ass boat, is a big as boat.
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      06-01-2009, 04:59 PM   #13
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Relax man.

You still missed my argument. First off, all the comparisons you just drew are durastic. C6 - Z06, S550 - S63, M3 - 335i. I'm talking about direct comparos. 335i - IS350/S5. M5 - E63/RS6. They're all in such a tight group yet people will argue to no end about which one performs better. It doesn't matter in real world driving. Unless, of course, you want to feel better sbout yourself by having the faster car.

Maybe I'm just too relaxed about it.


That's not what you said. Your premise involved people arguing over a few tenths of a second. And my comparisons weren't drastic, they were very similiar cars.
It seems you're belittling the idea of better performance in a performance car forum. All I'm saying is that a few tenths of a seconds do make a difference to most people buying a fast car.
And it's not that I disagree that there's a lot more to a vehicle than pure acceleration numbers (if there weren't I probably wouldn't have purchased my Black Series).
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      06-01-2009, 07:35 PM   #14
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I think true enthusiasm means appreciating cars for their strengths, not harping on their weaknesses. The C63 has phenomenal torque and straight line speed; the M3 has great all around handling, GTR has phenomenal speed and handling, etc.
Too many times on forums such as this, you get "my car is bettter than xyz," yada, yada, yada. Comments such as this just shows how narrow minded you are, and shows that you are not a true enthusiast.
I liken this to women. It's impossible to answer the question "who is the most beautiful".
Imagine making the comment "my wife/girlfriend is prettier/sexier than yours". Sounds pretty insipid and childish doesn't it...
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      06-01-2009, 08:18 PM   #15
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I think true enthusiasm means appreciating cars for their strengths, not harping on their weaknesses. The C63 has phenomenal torque and straight line speed; the M3 has great all around handling, GTR has phenomenal speed and handling, etc.
Too many times on forums such as this, you get "my car is bettter than xyz," yada, yada, yada. Comments such as this just shows how narrow minded you are, and shows that you are not a true enthusiast.
I liken this to women. It's impossible to answer the question "who is the most beautiful".
Imagine making the comment "my wife/girlfriend is prettier/sexier than yours". Sounds pretty insipid and childish doesn't it...


My girlfriend is sexier than my wife but my wife is prettier than my girlfriend.
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      06-02-2009, 09:38 AM   #16
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That's not what you said. Your premise involved people arguing over a few tenths of a second. And my comparisons weren't drastic, they were very similiar cars.
It seems you're belittling the idea of better performance in a performance car forum. All I'm saying is that a few tenths of a seconds do make a difference to most people buying a fast car.
And it's not that I disagree that there's a lot more to a vehicle than pure acceleration numbers (if there weren't I probably wouldn't have purchased my Black Series).
Sorry to disagree but I too think you are missing the point Bimmer Loyalist was making. When the cars are really this quick those final few tenths here or there matter not, it's how enjoyable it is that's important.

You clearly enjoy you Black Series, but I bet you enjoy it for more than simply it's speed. You have openly admitted that you prefer it to a GT2 or GT3, even though both will be quicker on the track.

Listen, facts and figures are only things to brag about to mates over a few beers, if anyone is really interested in being quickest then best start with some serious professional driving lessons on the track because it's the driver that makes to biggest difference to lap times and we aren't talking about a tenth here or there.
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      06-02-2009, 10:00 AM   #17
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To answer Bimmer Loyalists original question; I agree with you 100%. My brother in law owns a C63 and is always so quick to point out to me that his car is the faster car or that I better get used to smelling exhaust fumes because that's all I'll ever smell from behind him. I keep telling him that that's not why I bought the M3.

I mean, I had the same opportunity as him to buy a C63, but I didn't. I didn't even drive one and still haven't! For me, it's not about which car "gets from point A to point B quicker", it's about which gets me to point B with a sense of having "driven" there.

Yeah, I'm fully aware that there are many faster cars than the M3 on the road, but not many of them give me the sense that I'm the "driver of the machine". Most cars, like most people who drive them, are just commuters.

I like to think that I bought the M3 because I'm a driver.
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      06-02-2009, 11:04 AM   #18
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Sorry to disagree but I too think you are missing the point Bimmer Loyalist was making. When the cars are really this quick those final few tenths here or there matter not, it's how enjoyable it is that's important.

You clearly enjoy you Black Series, but I bet you enjoy it for more than simply it's speed. You have openly admitted that you prefer it to a GT2 or GT3, even though both will be quicker on the track.

Listen, facts and figures are only things to brag about to mates over a few beers, if anyone is really interested in being quickest then best start with some serious professional driving lessons on the track because it's the driver that makes to biggest difference to lap times and we aren't talking about a tenth here or there.



I don't believe I am missing his point. I think most are missing mine, that
a few tenths of a second do matter. That's all I'm saying. How they matter is up to the buyer. I just think people are mistaken in saying that it doesn't make a difference.


As far as preferring the Black to the GT3 and GT2 I honestly don't remember writing that but if I did I shouldn't have. I have never driven a GT2 and only gingerly drove a GT3. I would say I prefer the Black to the GT2 only in that its cheaper and more attainable for me. And the I prefer the Black to the GT3 because its a more practical car. Other than that I don't know.
I hopefully will be able to report back in a few months because I ordered a GT3 (though I haven't been told when I'll get it).
I will say I prefer the Black to the Turbo for reasons other than speed.
Again, I'm not debating there are a ton of different factors other than acceleration. If there weren't I'd be driving a ZR1.
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      06-02-2009, 04:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
That's not what you said. Your premise involved people arguing over a few tenths of a second. And my comparisons weren't drastic, they were very similiar cars.
It seems you're belittling the idea of better performance in a performance car forum. All I'm saying is that a few tenths of a seconds do make a difference to most people buying a fast car.
And it's not that I disagree that there's a lot more to a vehicle than pure acceleration numbers (if there weren't I probably wouldn't have purchased my Black Series).
Well I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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I think true enthusiasm means appreciating cars for their strengths, not harping on their weaknesses. The C63 has phenomenal torque and straight line speed; the M3 has great all around handling, GTR has phenomenal speed and handling, etc.
Too many times on forums such as this, you get "my car is bettter than xyz," yada, yada, yada. Comments such as this just shows how narrow minded you are, and shows that you are not a true enthusiast.
I liken this to women. It's impossible to answer the question "who is the most beautiful".
Imagine making the comment "my wife/girlfriend is prettier/sexier than yours". Sounds pretty insipid and childish doesn't it...
Better worded than how I put it, but the same idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Sorry to disagree but I too think you are missing the point Bimmer Loyalist was making. When the cars are really this quick those final few tenths here or there matter not, it's how enjoyable it is that's important.

You clearly enjoy you Black Series, but I bet you enjoy it for more than simply it's speed. You have openly admitted that you prefer it to a GT2 or GT3, even though both will be quicker on the track.

Listen, facts and figures are only things to brag about to mates over a few beers, if anyone is really interested in being quickest then best start with some serious professional driving lessons on the track because it's the driver that makes to biggest difference to lap times and we aren't talking about a tenth here or there.
Again, well said.
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      06-02-2009, 04:52 PM   #20
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I have to admit; sometimes I derive a lot of pleasure from debating with my friends about which car possesses better performance aspects. In the end, I think that the "better car" depends on the person's taste. I am a track enthusiast and I care more about cornering ability than I do 0-60. This is why I drive an S2000 instead of a 350Z. Being a track enthusiast I thoroughly believe that a car's true potential is unleashed depending on the experience of the driver.

In the end, I don't think it really matters as long as the owner is happy with his/her decision.

Just my two cents.

-Hunter
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      06-25-2009, 12:26 AM   #21
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I think of it like you; it has to be the driving experience. Everyone always has an argument of x1 is faster than x2 whilst being cheaper too. Thats how you know they haven't driven x1 or x2.
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      06-28-2009, 12:41 AM   #22
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"Buy what you like" is my motto. There's no such thing as a "great deal" on a vehicle you don't like. The OP brings out a good point that 99.1% of people who buy high performance cars like the M3 rarely make use of it.

However, there's something to be said about a car that's actually "built" for aggressive driving. BMWs are renown for having the ideal compromise between performance and practicality. While we don't make a habit (usually ) of sprinting down the street or around the corner @ 100 mph, it doesn't take such maneuvers to appreciate a high performance car.

Like for example, my new car, a 2007 Nissan Maxima, the "four door sports car" (right). As you quite imagine, the difference is day and night between this car and its predecessor, a '96 Buick Regal. Once again, 'steering feel' is regained. The tires don't howl if I take a corner faster than 20 mph, and the brakes have bite. It makes the car a lot more fun to drive, but also it feels safer--no more feeling of turning the wheel and feeling like the car would continue going straight ahead.

I have no doubts that if I owned BMW, it would be night and day compared to the Maxima, but so is the cost. All said, there are some good reasons to buy a high-performance cars despite not taking them to the track for a drag race or autocross.
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