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      05-29-2009, 07:09 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
All GTRs regardless of whether they were the ones used by Nissan at the Nurburgring on their record runs or the ones you walk in and buy in the showroom produce approximately 10% more power than quoted.
I thought this was the focus of the initial debate, and it seems like most folks, including Footie, hold this view, so I am somewhat confused about the focus of the current debate? If it is tires, doesn't the Sporauto M3 time reflect the use of PSCs, so has BMW cheated there as well since those tires don't come stock in the US, even as an option? Or is it the alteration/fine tuning of suspension geometry? (Footie, the driver configurable damper setting in the M3 does not alter suspension geometry).
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      05-29-2009, 07:39 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Why is your "line in the sand" based on a change of part? It is very arbitrary. Again, for the third time, showroom stock means showroom stock, not only in regards to the actual physical pieces of the car but also with regards to the adjustments of those components - all adjustments. There is no qualifier on "100% showroom stock" it does not mean stock parts and what essentially amounts to an aftermarket tune. Just because the suspension is capable of adjustment does not mean those adjustments are the showroom condition of the vehicle, they absolutely are not. I really think 99% of folks will agree with me on this. Modifications are modifications, period, parts, tune, adjustments, software, ANYTHING. It is not about what is available stock it is about how it IS delivered stock.

I'm done with this part of this discussion, we clearly disagree and are not going to close the gap.
By that logic altering tyre pressures etc is also cheating as it is not the same as when the car came out of the showroom and that's done to every car that does a track timing session. By your logic also the 911 GT3-RS time is not valid as they altered the suspension.
The M3 time is not valid as it was done with the competition brake pads which aren't available in North America so the time is only valid for Europe. Or would be if it weren't for the tyres they used which also aren't available in North America as pointed out there by Lucid. If that's not cheating then the faster runs on Japan only wheels and rubber for the GTR are also valid.

I think 99% of people will agree with me. See I can say that too and it means as much as when you say it. I think 99% of people on here will think we have little better to be doing than discussing the GTR on an M3 site.

Every manufacturer cheats to get their ring times.

Magazines are no better. In the US all the magazines quoted 0-60mph times are nonsense. They don't measure the first foot which doesn't sound like a lot but ends up knocking around 0.5secs off the time. Car and Driver fessed up to this 2 months ago and now in the reviews show both times and even call it the real time and the cheating time (mostly).

Everyone cheats to make headlines.

And from day 1 it has been known that every GTR has more than the quoted bhp. They're hand built engines so they'll never get them exactly the same so err on the side of more power. I haven't read of any of them actually putting out less than 500bhp.
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      05-29-2009, 08:40 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I thought this was the focus of the initial debate, and it seems like most folks, including Footie, hold this view, so I am somewhat confused about the focus of the current debate? If it is tires, doesn't the Sporauto M3 time reflect the use of PSCs, so has BMW cheated there as well since those tires don't come stock in the US, even as an option? Or is it the alteration/fine tuning of suspension geometry? (Footie, the driver configurable damper setting in the M3 does not alter suspension geometry).
I know the geometry isn't altered with an of the setting in the EDC, that was my point, the same thing will be true for the GTR, this has to be done at the dealer.

You do have a point about the PSCs on the M3, after asking the dealer it officially is only available as an option, though some examples have arrived on just the 19" upgrade. So one could argue that the different rims and tyres could be excused in the 7:26 time but in my opinion the suspension tweaks can not be excused. The suspension tweaks and rims + rubber could together account for up to 6 seconds but it could equally be less, without a proper comparison test between the two this can only be guess work.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that Nissan were totally upfront about their lap times and the cars involved, the problem was that Porsche used their own creditability to put enough doubt in peoples minds and it worked on a hell of a lot of them, but in my opinion the time Horst did has backfired on Porsche big time, they got their own 997turbo to lap as officially quoted but were a full 16 seconds slower than Horst, I smelt BS even before Sportauto's supertest it's just a shame it took so many to also realize this.

I said this a few posts ago but the GTR is another outstanding car in the same mold as the Bugatti Veyron. But I still wouldn't buy one.
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      05-29-2009, 11:09 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I mostly agree here and that was the point! You stated explicitly if the owner can easily do it themselves then it is still factory/showroom stock and I vehemently disagree. Chipping is the obvious counter example. A part is not replaced and sometimes even nothing has to be removed, it is simply different software. Now perhaps this is not generally owner achievable on the GT-R, because as I have heard their encryption is pretty good. Nonetheless the counter example, as a general point stands.



If you don't and can't draw a line between an adjustment that takes mechanical tools and permanently alters the handling and tire wear (until equivalently undone, again by a similar mechanical process) and pressing a single button, designed to be pressed at will by the operator, I don't think there is much point in continuing the debate.

"Showroom stock" is absolutely clear and precise to 99% of folks out there. The Nissan apologists, of course will twist and clear definition to vindicate Nissan.

So for a car like the Viper ACR where the suspension has a wide range of adjustment to dial in the car for a partiular track, your argument would be that it must be run at the ring in whatever configuration its sent to the dealer in? Seriously???

Come on Swamp, the car was designed to have those parameters varied to achieve maximum performance on the track. That one of the things you pay for, and there is nothing wrong with using that feature in the pursuit of lap times.

There is no way 99% of people agree with you on this one.
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      05-29-2009, 01:17 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
So for a car like the Viper ACR where the suspension has a wide range of adjustment to dial in the car for a partiular track, your argument would be that it must be run at the ring in whatever configuration its sent to the dealer in? Seriously???

Come on Swamp, the car was designed to have those parameters varied to achieve maximum performance on the track. That one of the things you pay for, and there is nothing wrong with using that feature in the pursuit of lap times.

There is no way 99% of people agree with you on this one.
It's a philosophical argument.

If you believe a published ring time should represent what a car driven off a dealer lot and onto the ring ( with no adjustments to suspension geometry or aerodynamics ) can run, then it's cheating.

If you believe a published ring time should represent the ultimate limit of the car, with a race team making suspension alterations on an iterative basis, and equipped with a $25,000 wheel & tire package only available in one country, then it's perfectly acceptable.
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      05-29-2009, 01:51 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
It's a philosophical argument.

If you believe a published ring time should represent what a car driven off a dealer lot and onto the ring ( with no adjustments to suspension geometry or aerodynamics ) can run, then it's cheating.

If you believe a published ring time should represent the ultimate limit of the car, with a race team making suspension alterations on an iterative basis, and equipped with a $25,000 wheel & tire package only available in one country, then it's perfectly acceptable.
Great summary/point of view ^. There is nothing wrong with tweaking and tweaking to achieve the best time - in RACING. But when you tweak and tweak it is simply not fairnor honest to claim "SHOWROOM STOCK". It is deceptive.

Also, just to be clear I do not agree fully with getting times with options as as been done with the M3. The PSC+ tires are really marginally cheating as well. The difference is that you can get those tires on a showroom stock car, but not in all countries. Like I said, that is sort of pushing the limit IMO. AFAIR the published M3 Ring time used PSC+ tires but did not use the optional, never factory installed BMW track brake pads. If I am wrong on this and they did use those pads then that is cheating, by the definition of "showroom stock". However, BMW has also never made that statement itself about Sportauto's times. Also it is only cheating by Sportauto not BMW since they did not orchestrate a huge factory run effort and publish a factory lap time. That is a HUGE difference. Sportauto has great standards but I expect even more from an OEM.
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      05-29-2009, 01:59 PM   #359
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Said I was done, I guess I just can't quit...

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Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
By that logic altering tyre pressures etc is also cheating as it is not the same as when the car came out of the showroom and that's done to every car that does a track timing session.
Technically speaking that is correct. However, I draw my "line in the sand" as excluding from cheating something that is so absolutely routine and required by all users over time.

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Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
Every manufacturer cheats to get their ring times.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Many manufacturers don't even bother posting any ring time - they let Sportauto do it. See my post just above on that.

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Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
Magazines are no better. In the US all the magazines quoted 0-60mph times are nonsense. They don't measure the first foot which doesn't sound like a lot but ends up knocking around 0.5secs off the time. Car and Driver fessed up to this 2 months ago and now in the reviews show both times and even call it the real time and the cheating time (mostly).

Everyone cheats to make headlines.
Well many do, but definitely not all.

Also the time difference for a sub 5 second 0-60 car based on the 1 foot thing is significant but is more like 0.3-0.4 not 0.5.

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They're hand built engines so they'll never get them exactly the same so err on the side of more power. I haven't read of any of them actually putting out less than 500bhp.
That is more nonsense. The variation in engine outputs using modern CNC manufacturing with very precise tolerance control can be below 1%. That is obvious when you think about the SAE Certified Power standard (not that Nissan would or could meet this particular standard). Furthermore, the variation in engine power comes primary from part size variation and the resulting tolerance stack up, not from variations in assembly. And trust me, the GT-R engine components are manufactured with very top of the line equipment, as good or better than the equipment used for high volume engines. It seems you are arguing that Nissan needs and extra 50 hp to insure no car makes below 480 hp and that is truly nonsense. The car is very purposefully under rated and given the same hp spec as the car it was meant to dethrone.

Last edited by swamp2; 05-29-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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      05-29-2009, 02:02 PM   #360
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Foot, your new avatar is absolutely hilarious. It takes some balls to actually use that!
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      05-29-2009, 02:59 PM   #361
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Foot, your new avatar is absolutely hilarious. It takes some balls to actually use that!
Well the M3 wasn't quick enough.

I suppose I just decided I needed a change.

Back to the topic at hand. The ACR needs a multitude of adjustments on any track so technically it's times on any track should be excluded from the records. Another thing, is it known whether the ZR1 was adjusted in a similar manner by GM? Just because they haven't said anything doesn't mean it isn't so.
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      05-29-2009, 03:04 PM   #362
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Back to the topic at hand. The ACR needs a multitude of adjustments on any track so technically it's times on any track should be excluded from the records. Another thing, is it known whether the ZR1 was adjusted in a similar manner by GM? Just because they haven't said anything doesn't mean it isn't so.
Yes, the ACR's suspension surely is matched to the Ring. Heck the ZR-1 probably is as well. But the key difference here is you don't see those folks making press releases touting "100% showroom stock"!
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      05-29-2009, 03:46 PM   #363
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However, BMW has also never made that statement itself about Sportauto's times. Also it is only cheating by Sportauto not BMW since they did not orchestrate a huge factory run effort and publish a factory lap time. That is a HUGE difference. Sportauto has great standards but I expect even more from an OEM.
Sure, but I must imagine there is some kind of dialog between the manufacturer and Sportauto before one of these super tests. Actually, I know that there is in one case for a fact. So, if BMW were to feel strongly about what version of the car was to be tested, I bet Sportauto would take that into consideration. I would also bet that BMW most likely had something to do with the car being tested with PSCs.
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      05-29-2009, 03:51 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes, the ACR's suspension surely is matched to the Ring. Heck the ZR-1 probably is as well. But the key difference here is you don't see those folks making press releases touting "100% showroom stock"!
Maybe not but the very fact they came to the ring to set a record is proof enough that they were wanting the world to know how good their cars were.

Nissan has had a long history at the ring and using it as a PR exercise so we knew that they of all people would be shouting from the roof tops about the ring time they achieved, but I personally think GM have been pretty active as well lately with the CTS-V and ZR1.

You can't excuse the other just because they don't capitalise on it as well as Nissan do, if you class tweaking the suspension as cheating then this will probably include quite a few exceptional times.

Last edited by footie; 05-29-2009 at 05:11 PM.
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      05-29-2009, 04:22 PM   #365
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Yes, the ACR's suspension surely is matched to the Ring. Heck the ZR-1 probably is as well. But the key difference here is you don't see those folks making press releases touting "100% showroom stock"!
I'll add and preface that this is subjective on my part, but I don't see the ACR vs. GTR adjustable suspension comparison as apples to apples.

The ACR is a stripped down, race car that you can drive on the street - if you're crazy enough. Dialing in the suspension and spoiler kinda fall in line with the mission of this car.

The GTR has every electronic aid known to man. It is the PS3 experience brought to life - even uses a multi-function display designed by Sony. To have to manually dial in the suspension on a car with electronics this advanced seems pretty counter intuitive. Yeah it can be done, but should you really have to on a car like this?
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      05-29-2009, 05:20 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes, the ACR's suspension surely is matched to the Ring. Heck the ZR-1 probably is as well. But the key difference here is you don't see those folks making press releases touting "100% showroom stock"!
Out of the GTR, ACR, and ZR1. I would say the ZR1 is most likely the closest to stock. What exactly is there to change on the ZR1 suspension. The ZR1 uses the Magnetic Ride Control. Not running something like coil-overs which need a good amount of time to setup correctly for track use.

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You can't excuse the other just because they don't capitalise on it as well as Nissan do, if you class tweaking the suspension as cheating then this will probably include quite a few exceptional times.
There is no dialing in the ZR1 suspension. It is magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an onboard computer. The system responds in one millisecond. It is what it is.
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      05-29-2009, 05:38 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I'll add and preface that this is subjective on my part, but I don't see the ACR vs. GTR adjustable suspension comparison as apples to apples.

The ACR is a stripped down, race car that you can drive on the street - if you're crazy enough. Dialing in the suspension and spoiler kinda fall in line with the mission of this car.
I don't know whether you can dismiss the ACR as not the same as the GTR simply because it's more single minded in it's approach to performance. There is many here that still view it one in the same simply because it can be driven on the road. I just happen to agree with you that it's not the same class as the GTR or even the ZR1.

If you can adjust the suspension and are of the opinion that as long as nothing is changed in the process then anything along this line is fair game. I know swamp doesn't agree with this approach but at least Nissan have been forthcoming about this even though I am sure that other factory times are done this same way.

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The GTR has every electronic aid known to man. It is the PS3 experience brought to life - even uses a multi-function display designed by Sony. To have to manually dial in the suspension on a car with electronics this advanced seems pretty counter intuitive. Yeah it can be done, but should you really have to on a car like this?
This may well come in future versions as the technology becomes available, personally I don't think such an option should ever be offered because suspension geometry is something that requires experience to get right, and getting it wrong is by far the easier to do. Best leave it to the experts.

Oh, and yes the GTR is loaded with some amazing technology which has added a lot to it's weight which is counter productive but give it's weight and output there would be no other way for such a heavy car to lap the way it does. It's the totally opposite approach to performance that the British engineers and Porsche chose and I suppose it's a very Japanese way but does that mean it's wrong, surely in the end it's the results that should speak for themselves and in this the Japanese way has a lot of benefits.
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      05-29-2009, 06:04 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
Out of the GTR, ACR, and ZR1. I would say the ZR1 is most likely the closest to stock. What exactly is there to change on the ZR1 suspension. The ZR1 uses the Magnetic Ride Control. Not running something like coil-overs which need a good amount of time to setup correctly for track use.



There is no dialing in the ZR1 suspension. It is magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an onboard computer. The system responds in one millisecond. It is what it is.
You might think that but believe me you are wrong.

It is amazing how different the TT thus equipped can be made to behave by one a software tweak, which I might add is far harder to tell without actually driving it.
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      05-29-2009, 06:23 PM   #369
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You might think that but believe me you are wrong.

It is amazing how different the TT thus equipped can be made to behave by one a software tweak, which I might add is far harder to tell without actually driving it.
You think GM made a software upgrade for the magnetic ride control. Thats funny. You have way more respect for GM than I thought.
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      05-29-2009, 09:43 PM   #370
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So for a car like the Viper ACR where the suspension has a wide range of adjustment to dial in the car for a partiular track, your argument would be that it must be run at the ring in whatever configuration its sent to the dealer in? Seriously???

Come on Swamp, the car was designed to have those parameters varied to achieve maximum performance on the track. That one of the things you pay for, and there is nothing wrong with using that feature in the pursuit of lap times.

There is no way 99% of people agree with you on this one.
Thanks Jaiman. You are completely correct IMO.
Garr. The original 7.29 time was not using the VSpec tyres and wheels. It's only the later faster times that used those options. Someone keeps saying it here (I think it's you) and time and again Footie has pointed out that it was on the std tyre/wheel combo.

I would have to see the original posting by Nissan on the ring time but "Showroom Stock" sounds like North American wording and not something that Nissan would say (unless it's Nissan North America of course). I suspect some other wording but can't confirm that as I haven't seen it.

And how come it's ok for the ACR to adjust suspension and not the GTR??? Just becuase it looks like a race car and is fairly well stripped out doesn't change the fact that it's sold as a street car so therefore it goes by the same set of rules as everyone else. According to you and Swamp the times are invalid as it was altered. (and it looks ridiculous especially in snot green)

P.S.
Do we get a prize if this is the longest post ever on here????
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      05-29-2009, 11:03 PM   #371
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Quote:
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I would have to see the original posting by Nissan on the ring time but "Showroom Stock" sounds like North American wording and not something that Nissan would say (unless it's Nissan North America of course). I suspect some other wording but can't confirm that as I haven't seen it.
No matter what Nissan said or will say it is most likely it would be in Japanese and then translated. I was quite sure I read an equivalent statement to "showroom stock" which is indeed my own wording. In a press release or on a web site Nissan stated (Mizuno, I think) that this car (the one that got a particular lap time) was the same as one purchased right from the showroom floor. For the life of me I can not find this statement nor a quote. Since the latest time was with the special wheels and tires the statement must have been in regards to one of the other recent lap times but not the latest 7:26 time.

Can anyone locate the relevant quote or web page?
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      05-29-2009, 11:46 PM   #372
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No matter what Nissan said or will say it is most likely it would be in Japanese and then translated. I was quite sure I read an equivalent statement to "showroom stock" which is indeed my own wording. In a press release or on a web site Nissan stated (Mizuno, I think) that this car (the one that got a particular lap time) was the same as one purchased right from the showroom floor. For the life of me I can not find this statement nor a quote. Since the latest time was with the special wheels and tires the statement must have been in regards to one of the other recent lap times but not the latest 7:26 time.

Can anyone locate the relevant quote or web page?
Nissan Showroom stock must translate to new rubber, suspension tunes, exhaust and ECU tune. It's all good! Who cares if no one ever in the history of racing can replicate the time they got and if you tried your warranty would be voided so who gives a fuck anyway?. They said it so it must be true!!!!!
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      05-30-2009, 04:18 AM   #373
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Thanks Jaiman. You are completely correct IMO.
Garr. The original 7.29 time was not using the VSpec tyres and wheels. It's only the later faster times that used those options. Someone keeps saying it here (I think it's you) and time and again Footie has pointed out that it was on the std tyre/wheel combo.
I'm aware of the differences. The original 7:29 time is for a 2009 GT-R. Nissan updated the suspension and ECU for the 2010 car. This latest rumored 7:38 SportAuto time was obtained from a 2010 GT-R. I know you're trying to eliminate the variable of the VSpec tyres and wheels but you can't exactly do that given the other changes Nissan made to the 2010 car.
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      05-30-2009, 07:00 AM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I'm aware of the differences. The original 7:29 time is for a 2009 GT-R. Nissan updated the suspension and ECU for the 2010 car. This latest rumored 7:38 SportAuto time was obtained from a 2010 GT-R. I know you're trying to eliminate the variable of the VSpec tyres and wheels but you can't exactly do that given the other changes Nissan made to the 2010 car.
To be honest I really have better things to do with my life than following the changes from year to year for any car even my own. I was just pointing out that the original time which is just as disputed on here was done on original tyres. If the new time was done on optional rubber I agree it can be discounted unless you're using it as a decision whether to spend the money on the optional V-Spec stuff (are they really that expensive??? 25k??)

However, if the new time was in a 2010 spec car and that's what you get if you buy one then it is valid. Changes throughout model years are normal enough even if this one was done at the speed they make them on motorbikes. The fact that ECU changes etc don't matter if they are included in the 2010 model for everyone.

Shite. Gotta go. Bell coming to hook up the tv, internet and phone in the new house.

Bottom line. Using non std wheels/tyres is cheating. Using a 2010 model is not if it's the model everyone buys. I have no idea which is the case.

God I hate painting
SoreHead is offline   Canada
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