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      05-12-2009, 12:27 AM   #23
endofanera7
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Very beautiful wheels!
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      05-12-2009, 12:35 AM   #24
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Very beautiful wheels!
This wheel has potential for sure.
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      05-12-2009, 01:49 AM   #25
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Cleveland,
Why did BBS choose the make the RE-R for the Cayenne? I can't imagine that many Cayenne owners changing wheels out for quality wheels vs. bling wheels that I see all the time on the Cayenne.
Also, could you explain the 5 axis machining and why it costs so much. $10,000/set is WAY up there.
Thanks for the info.
The only reasoning that I could get out of BBS's Technical Director, was this price point would not be too far out of line for this particular fitment. In that respect he is correct, given the median income for the vast majority of Porsche owners.

That retail price would be over the top for Chrysler 300 or Honda Accord owners for example. It wouldn't matter how good the rims were...

Also keep in mind, that many European car owners are more subdued that their American counterparts, and the number of 'bling' wheels abroad is significantly less than it is here in the United States. The bling wheel phenomenon is more pronounced in America, but it also has a presence in many foreign countries as well. (although to a lesser extent thank god!)

Also,

5 axis cnc machines are used for a variety of manufacturing purposes. They are typically very large in scale. The 'standard' machine used in CNC milling operations is a 3-axis unit. (X,Y,Z)

In order to understand a 5-axis unit, I believe it's necessary to breifly explain 3-axis CNC machining first. A standard 3-axis machine operates in 3 linear axes of movement (x, y, z). These axes of movement (along with pre-programmed CAD software algoritim) will tell the tool where to begin and stop each procedure, like on a custom engraving for example. But if you wanted to machine the sides of the project you would be forced to reposition the material. (that costs you time and money)

Trying to produce a 5-axis results with a 3-axis machine is a huge mistake for several reasons:

1) It increases your overall labor costs. (time is money in the world of machining metal parts)

2) It kills your production 'flow' by forcing you to STOP and re-position materials and possibly change tooling bits.

3) It leads to terrible INCONSISTANCY in the quality among the finished parts.

4) It can compromise the intergrity of the finished part, if it has LOAD BEARING duties. It is virtually impossible to re-position each and every part (one-by-one) in exactly the same manner. This could lead to a catastopic failure under severe stress loads.

Now here are the key differences that set the 5-axis machine apart from it's less capable sibling...

5-axis CNC milling machines add two more axes of movement (A & B). Adding two additional axis will reduce or eliminate the amount of material repositioning needed for manufacturing 3-D products. Also, these two axes allow the cutting tool to tilt so that the sides of the material can be machined. The result is machine capable of producing highly accurate 3-D products quickly and efficiently. CNC machinery with five axis are ideal for accurate, high-speed trimming, cutting, and routing of metal parts. They come in many different sizes. Some are larger than your garage at home!

When I worked at Boeing, we used a very expensive 5-axis router that was extremely accurate at cutting and trimming large aircraft parts and other components. They were fully automated, and allowed the operator to input just a few commands into the computer in order to produce many different pieces. Many programs were pre-loaded into the memory, and the freshly milled pieces were done in short order. These machines can also help to trim and finish large metal (surface area) pieces with a quick software upload.

Because so many 5-axis machines typically takes up a great deal of space, it is highly unlikely that you will see these machines in a small local Machine Shop. It's usually only found in the largest shops and full-blown manufacturing plants. These machines are not cheap. The high cost of a 5-axis machine also makes it prohibitive for users on a smaller scale. (it can't pay for itself in a reasonable timeframe)

The typical users are companies that need to produce a large number of pieces, with complex shapes, carvings, or unique finishing details on all sides. Wheel manufacturers, metal fabricators, aerospace factories, automobile manufacturers,etc. are just few of the industries which use 5-axis CNC technology.

Oh damn, I just realized what time it is...

Thanks a lot aus!

I'm pooped...time for sleep. zzzzzzzzzzz
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      05-12-2009, 07:36 AM   #26
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Great post Cleveland.

Any way you can tell looking at a wheel if it was made using a 5 Axes CNC?
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      05-12-2009, 09:52 AM   #27
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Thanks for all the informative posts Cleveland!
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      05-12-2009, 10:03 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Great post Cleveland.

Any way you can tell looking at a wheel if it was made using a 5 Axes CNC?
Sometimes you can by how the face of the wheel is machined.

This is most prevalent in "no-lip" wheels with a low offset and deeply recessed spokes that dive into the center pad area. Spokes with a slope angle greater than 12 degrees, are prime candidates for 5-axis machining.

Typical 3-axis CNC milling machines have a difficult time reaching certain areas of the wheel center, without damaging another part of the wheel. (angles are too tight)

This is where a 5-axis machine can manipulate the cutting head better, and rotate the work platform in the proper orientation to reach these tight spots.

Note: The use of a 5-axis CNC machine, has no bearing on the overall quality of a given wheel product. It's use is primarily limited to a need basis. (only when it's called for)

So you should not automatically assume, that any wheel machined using this type of milling device, it is somehow 'better' than another competing product.

Just wanted to make that point clear...
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      05-12-2009, 10:06 AM   #29
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Thanks Cleveland, do we know whether or not these wheels are available yet? Are they available for the M3?
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      05-12-2009, 10:44 AM   #30
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wow, those are pretty hot.

NIce wheels already Dean? man!

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Race wheels I like how they concave and the cut between the spokes like the LMRs
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      05-12-2009, 01:58 PM   #31
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      05-12-2009, 02:13 PM   #32
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Awesome posts Cleveland.
You've got to have the most informative 7 posts in forum history!

Hope you get a chance to catch up on the beauty sleep tonight.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      05-12-2009, 03:37 PM   #33
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Thanks Cleveland, do we know whether or not these wheels are available yet? Are they available for the M3?
I think they are available, because two part numbers have been assigned to the front and rear wheels for the E9x fitment. So they are showing up in the company parts database. BBS doesn't usually do this...unless the wheel is in production.

But just to be sure, I sent an e-mail to my contact at BBS for confirmation.

Depending on how busy they are, it may take a few days to get a confirmation. I'm working on confirming the pricing and weights as well. I'll let you know when he responds.

Preliminary Forged Individual E9x M3 wheel specs:

Front wheel: 19 x 8.75" (BBS part# FI006)

Rear wheel: 19 x 10.75" (BBS part# FI007)

Note: The wheel sizes are indeed bizarre, but they are accurate.
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      05-12-2009, 03:50 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland View Post
I think they are available, because two part numbers have been assigned to the front and rear wheels for the E9x fitment. So they are showing up in the company parts database. BBS doesn't usually do this...unless the wheel is in production.

But just to be sure, I sent an e-mail to my contact at BBS for confirmation.

Depending on how busy they are, it may take a few days to get a confirmation. I'm working on confirming the pricing and weights as well. I'll let you know when he responds.

Preliminary Forged Individual E9x M3 wheel specs:

Front wheel: 19 x 8.75" (BBS part# FI006)

Rear wheel: 19 x 10.75" (BBS part# FI007)

Note: The wheel sizes are indeed bizarre, but they are accurate.
That is fantastic. Thanks for all the great info and help.
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      05-12-2009, 04:49 PM   #35
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I may have to be in on these.
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      05-12-2009, 05:48 PM   #36
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Cleveland,
I don't have much knowledge about rims. How should I compare and pick a rim manufacturer? Is it the best BBS forged rim better than the other manufacturer such as
HRE, Neez, Rays or Champion?
I will like to read some of your comments. Your comments may help many people.
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      05-12-2009, 06:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
Cleveland,
I don't have much knowledge about rims. How should I compare and pick a rim manufacturer? Is it the best BBS forged rim better than the other manufacturer such as
HRE, Neez, Rays or Champion?
I will like to read some of your comments. Your comments may help many people.
Neez, Rays, RAC, and Champion I believe are all 8000 ton forged pressed wheels. High end stuff. They might actually be produced in the same factory.

BBS Japan stuff is very high end too, but not Im not exactly sure if they are 8000 ton forged pressed as well.
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      05-12-2009, 07:00 PM   #38
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Sick wheels!
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      05-12-2009, 07:14 PM   #39
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Love the wheels. Love the information Cleveland keep feeding me lol
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      05-12-2009, 07:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Neez, Rays, RAC, and Champion I believe are all 8000 ton forged pressed wheels. High end stuff. They might actually be produced in the same factory.

BBS Japan stuff is very high end too, but not Im not exactly sure if they are 8000 ton forged pressed as well.
I feel like, buy a rim is not as simple as I think!
I really hope to see more comment from people.
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      05-12-2009, 07:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland View Post
I think they are available, because two part numbers have been assigned to the front and rear wheels for the E9x fitment. So they are showing up in the company parts database. BBS doesn't usually do this...unless the wheel is in production.

But just to be sure, I sent an e-mail to my contact at BBS for confirmation.

Depending on how busy they are, it may take a few days to get a confirmation. I'm working on confirming the pricing and weights as well. I'll let you know when he responds.

Preliminary Forged Individual E9x M3 wheel specs:

Front wheel: 19 x 8.75" (BBS part# FI006)

Rear wheel: 19 x 10.75" (BBS part# FI007)

Note: The wheel sizes are indeed bizarre, but they are accurate.
Thanks, please do let us know what you find, and agree the wheel sizes are bizarre.
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      05-12-2009, 08:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
I feel like, buy a rim is not as simple as I think!
I really hope to see more comment from people.
You pay high end prices for HRE, but they do not have 8000 ton forged pressed wheels.

You can't go wrong with Neez, Champion, RAC, VOLK or BBS. OZ is a good brand also.

BTW, Cleveland, nice to see hear from you. Its been a while.

Last edited by STALKER; 05-12-2009 at 08:44 PM.
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      05-12-2009, 10:55 PM   #43
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you pay high end prices for HRE wheels becuase they are High end quality
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      05-12-2009, 10:57 PM   #44
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you pay high end prices for HRE wheels becuase they are High end quality
There is better out there for the prices they charge.
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