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      05-07-2009, 08:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BRDHNTR View Post
Oh man, I wish this thread started last week. I am going up to the Glen this weekend with the GVC of BMW CCA. I have never been on a track before, so I am nervous as it is. I think that I will watch the youtube video a couple times to get a feel for the layout of the track. The maps just don't help as you can't see the elevation changes and camber changes. I am running the OEM tire setup, and I just put new brake fluid in but I left the pads on as they seemed to have a lot of material left on them.

That said, I am not too worried as my lack of experience and lack of slicks should keep my speeds/mechanical stress down as well. Oh, and I was planning on leaving DSC ON. Do you think I should use MDM? I have no plans to turn the system OFF.

So nervous.
Don't worry, you'll be fine. The stock setup will work fine as well. Your instructor won't let you go too fast on your first day. Let him drive the car for a couple of laps to show you the line. You can use MDM, but don't turn it off (your instructor most likely wouldn't let you anyway). Again, this stuff doesn't matter all that much on your first event. You won't be pushing the car hard enough for it to make a difference. You'll have a ton of fun!
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      05-08-2009, 07:04 AM   #24
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I just remembered that back in the 80's we used to use a water spray to help our brakes out on our 5.0L Mustangs.The brakes were real crap on those cars and we used to take the windsheild washer pump & run hoses to spray on the rotors. and used the brake lights to activate the pump.We would use old carb jets to contol the volume of spray.It was a stopgap measure but it made enough of a difference that we could run about 4 or 5 hot laps during Solo 1 where we could only run 1 before.Trans-Am cars of the 80's used to run with about a 20 gallon water tank for brake cooling.
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      05-08-2009, 07:11 AM   #25
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Trans-Am cars of the 80's used to run with about a 20 gallon water tank for brake cooling.
Wow, had no idea that was done. How did they/you know when to spray the water exactly? Was there was kind of temp reading?
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      05-08-2009, 07:36 AM   #26
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Wow, had no idea that was done. How did they/you know when to spray the water exactly? Was there was kind of temp reading?
We guessed that if we sprayed into the inboard central area of the hub that it would go out the vanes and cool the complete braking surface.There was an awful lot of trail & error and quite a few cracked rotors but eventually it worked well enough to do 4 laps at 10/10ths.Temp readings?It went from too hot to being able to work I am pretty sure that I have a picture at home with steam coming out of the front wheels at Shannonville.I will try to find that and post it up.The big issue is having a large enough tank to do a complete session.
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      05-08-2009, 07:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
We guessed that if we sprayed into the inboard central area of the hub that it would go out the vanes and cool the complete braking surface.There was an awful lot of trail & error and quite a few cracked rotors but eventually it worked well enough to do 4 laps at 10/10ths.Temp readings?It went from too hot to being able to work I am pretty sure that I have a picture at home with steam coming out of the front wheels at Shannonville.I will try to find that and post it up.The big issue is having a large enough tank to do a complete session.
I was wondering about the timing of the spray. Did you simply spray each time you went through a major braking zone? Yeah, post pics!
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      05-08-2009, 07:57 AM   #28
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I was wondering about the timing of the spray. Did you simply spray each time you went through a major braking zone? Yeah, post pics!
The pump was activated by the brake light switch,so if the brake lights were on the pump was working and water was being sprayed.We did not have access to I/R heat probes at that time so it was a guess at best.We tried using the temp paints that the pro teams used but the highest temp paint burned offmelted caliper seals was the norm for us and so was the piston pushed through the backing plate.
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      05-08-2009, 08:09 AM   #29
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I remember hearing something about a "cooling system" like that. Very entertaining but I guess if it's functional, who cares?

I was at Shannonville a few years ago. It was the day after a hurricane had tracked up the entire east coast and dumped a few inches of rain. We were delayed in getting the day started because they were trying to drain some puddles. They got most of the track clear but there was one place where there was a running stream going across the track all day. All of the Canadians were braking before the water and going slow through it. My friend and I were the only ones "crazy" enough to go full blast through the water and get on the brakes afterward. Only once did it bite me in the *ss where I got on the brakes a bit too soon in the water.

Which brings me to it being odd that the water didn't just lubricate the rotor/pad? I guess the water instantly vaporized and caused cooling that way?
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      05-08-2009, 08:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by kieranlavin View Post
I remember hearing something about a "cooling system" like that. Very entertaining but I guess if it's functional, who cares?

I was at Shannonville a few years ago. It was the day after a hurricane had tracked up the entire east coast and dumped a few inches of rain. We were delayed in getting the day started because they were trying to drain some puddles. They got most of the track clear but there was one place where there was a running stream going across the track all day. All of the Canadians were braking before the water and going slow through it. My friend and I were the only ones "crazy" enough to go full blast through the water and get on the brakes afterward. Only once did it bite me in the *ss where I got on the brakes a bit too soon in the water.

Which brings me to it being odd that the water didn't just lubricate the rotor/pad? I guess the water instantly vaporized and caused cooling that way?
Shannonville is built on bedrock that does not drain well at all.I have organized Motorcycle days there for the last 6 years and if you think the puddles were a problem in a car wait till you try it on a bikeDirecting the track staff with the pumps was usually part of the morning routine.

The water instantly vapourized one the brakes were warmed up and the water was directed on the internal veins not the friction surfaces.
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      05-08-2009, 08:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
The pump was activated by the brake light switch,so if the brake lights were on the pump was working and water was being sprayed.We did not have access to I/R heat probes at that time so it was a guess at best.We tried using the temp paints that the pro teams used but the highest temp paint burned offmelted caliper seals was the norm for us and so was the piston pushed through the backing plate.
OK. So it was spraying during breaking. I missed that. Yeah, I guess the water is vaporized right away then...
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      05-08-2009, 10:30 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDHNTR View Post
Oh man, I wish this thread started last week. I am going up to the Glen this weekend with the GVC of BMW CCA. I have never been on a track before, so I am nervous as it is. I think that I will watch the youtube video a couple times to get a feel for the layout of the track. The maps just don't help as you can't see the elevation changes and camber changes. I am running the OEM tire setup, and I just put new brake fluid in but I left the pads on as they seemed to have a lot of material left on them.

That said, I am not too worried as my lack of experience and lack of slicks should keep my speeds/mechanical stress down as well. Oh, and I was planning on leaving DSC ON. Do you think I should use MDM? I have no plans to turn the system OFF.

So nervous.
Being nervous is good! Try to relax while being nervous though. A little trick my first instructor taught me on how to relax was this.. Before you start out, grip the wheel as tight as possible, close your eyes and take a deep breath, let it all out slowly. Then take off..

Good job swapping the fluid out. You will be totally fine on stock gear, especially if you have no prior experience. All the race pads and compounds do is let you go faster. It is not safer and actually with r compounds that dont make noise, its less safe because there is no warning of grip loss, they just let go! You need to drive wihtin the limits of the car, and if your limit on stock gear is 10 seconds slower, who the hell cares!! You're still having fun, right? Its not a race, its a way to safely experience your car near the limit.

Work on:
1. Being smooth
2. keeping your eyes open all around you, look far ahead
3. learning the line (watch Lucid video a LOT, he has good lines - look where he is turning in, where he is on track entering a turn, how smooth his inputs are..). Don't worry too much about pre-learning track camber and elevation - most of it is obvious when you're on track, and there are very few off-camber corners, and even those are not bad.

You instructor will guide you so trust him, especially if he has m3 experience - most clubs try to match up driver's car type with students. Let him drive your car, you'll be scared to do so, but its fine. Watch where he's turning in, where he is braking - use the braking signs on the side for reference. Start at the first braking sign, then move in as you feel comfortable.

MDM etc - Initially, leave it all on, use sporty on throttle and suspension (pre-setup M mode for this so you dont have to hit a bunch of buttons in line). Use MDM later in the day or next day when you know the track more. I wouldn't turn it all off your first time out, especially on a fast track like WGI.

You are about to experience one of the most fun things you'll ever do. Have fun, relax and enjoy it safely. Watkins Glen is an AWESOME racetrack.

PS - bring and drink LOTS of water. Force feed it, you wont realize it but you can get dehydrated quickly.
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      05-08-2009, 11:19 AM   #33
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This answers the question I asked in the other thread about using endurance type pads on our heavy cars. I went through this process on my last car until I found the right pad. A costly exercise but it really made me understand the importance of using the right pad for the application. As soon as you move out of the heat range of a pad, it will either fade, wear rapidly, or even crumble like you described. I'm sure any top tier race pad will fare better. And ducting will certainly help
Did your rotors get any surface cracking? If not, you've probably got a lot more thermal capacity left to take advantage of a hotter pad
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      05-08-2009, 11:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Shannonville is built on bedrock that does not drain well at all.I have organized Motorcycle days there for the last 6 years and if you think the puddles were a problem in a car wait till you try it on a bikeDirecting the track staff with the pumps was usually part of the morning routine.
It was a fun track though! Just the drive. Even worse was Mosport. I did that drive once only to find out once we got there that the club we had agreed to run with was on the driver technical training track (like a freaking autox) and not the big track. Imagine the dissapointment after driving like 10 hours to get there

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subw00er View Post
PS - bring and drink LOTS of water. Force feed it, you wont realize it but you can get dehydrated quickly.
VERY important. Even instructing I usually get out of the car and go right for the water. Even if it's not hot, I force the water. I always find that it works best if I'm needing to go use the restroom a LOT. That means I'm drinking enough
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      05-08-2009, 11:56 AM   #35
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Sorry, I just now got a chance to look at the video.

Take this with a grain of salt as it's coming from a driver of a momentum car. These are merely suggestions and I always tell people to try it both ways and see which way you prefer. At least if you TRY my way and decide that you like your way better, you've given it a shot and tried something new!

Turn 5 after the bus stop it seems like you're not using all of the track to the left there. One lap it seemed worse than the one prior (around 5:30 is the one I'm saying is worse than prior). On that lap, it seemed like you only came out to about halfway across the track and then started diving back in for turn 5. Let the car track out to the left and then stay out there a bit. Even for people that I saw getting out there and using that part of the track, they were still turning in too early. There is a point where you can see a traffic light. If you look for that light, there's a point where it'll intersect with a light pole behind it. THAT is where I was having people turn in. On the GTR last October the guy picked up another 5 or so MPH going into the laces when I had him do that
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      05-08-2009, 11:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyBobby View Post
Did your rotors get any surface cracking? If not, you've probably got a lot more thermal capacity left to take advantage of a hotter pad
Lucid, I am wondering this too. On my z06, my NAPA rotors would last two to three events and the (much more expensive) OEM rotors would last 4-5. I am curious how the oem M3 rotors faired. Do you see any spidering yet?
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      05-08-2009, 12:05 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by kieranlavin View Post
It was a fun track though! Just the drive. Even worse was Mosport. I did that drive once only to find out once we got there that the club we had agreed to run with was on the driver technical training track (like a freaking autox) and not the big track. Imagine the dissapointment after driving like 10 hours to get there
They redid the DDT about 5 years ago lengthening X2 and it is hoot to drive now.I am organizing 2 track days this year at this venue.

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      05-08-2009, 02:14 PM   #38
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Yup, that's the one I ran. It was just such a disapointment in comparison to the big track. Imagine driving 10 hours or so to find out you're not doing the big track! To make matters worse it was a PCA event and they had cup cars and everything. Some incredible Porsches over on the big track that day.

Also part of the problem with the DDT was that the knucklehead running the event decided that the two beginner groups would run with the "infield" portions and the more advanced group would run without them. My friend and I trailered only one car and we were running all sessions. That was confusing enough to the point where one would need to ride to "navigate" If that wasn't bad enough, in the afternoon they opened up the outer loop to the beginners who were confused as to which part of the track they should be using. It got downright dangerous between trying to determine which group we were out in and whether or not to take the inner loops. Add the confusion of everyone else there and there were quite a few close calls. Very unsafe. The same guy organized a track day at the big track and asked if we'd come instruct last minute and I declined just based on safety alone.

That said, it definitely seems like a fun track if you live within a 2 hour drive or so but for that long of a drive, I'd want to do the big track!
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      05-08-2009, 02:29 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kieranlavin View Post
Yup, that's the one I ran. It was just such a disapointment in comparison to the big track. Imagine driving 10 hours or so to find out you're not doing the big track! To make matters worse it was a PCA event and they had cup cars and everything. Some incredible Porsches over on the big track that day.

Also part of the problem with the DDT was that the knucklehead running the event decided that the two beginner groups would run with the "infield" portions and the more advanced group would run without them. My friend and I trailered only one car and we were running all sessions. That was confusing enough to the point where one would need to ride to "navigate" If that wasn't bad enough, in the afternoon they opened up the outer loop to the beginners who were confused as to which part of the track they should be using. It got downright dangerous between trying to determine which group we were out in and whether or not to take the inner loops. Add the confusion of everyone else there and there were quite a few close calls. Very unsafe. The same guy organized a track day at the big track and asked if we'd come instruct last minute and I declined just based on safety alone.

That said, it definitely seems like a fun track if you live within a 2 hour drive or so but for that long of a drive, I'd want to do the big track!
The big track has a lot of issues for students.A good time in a fast street car is over 100 mph average and because it is an old style track with little runoff,when mistakes happen it is usually a big one!I have raced there for a long time and the problem is that a lot of people are fast only at Mosport and have zero car control skills when they are tracking around fast corners,not driving at the limit .The DDT is a great place to teach people as it much better to put a student at the limit in a 50 mph corner than a 100 mph one and the skills that are learned there are much easier to transfer to a faster track.
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      05-08-2009, 03:21 PM   #40
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The DDT is a great place to teach people as it much better to put a student at the limit in a 50 mph corner than a 100 mph one and the skills that are learned there are much easier to transfer to a faster track.
I agree with you 100% I've run several events and similarly look for tracks with much runoff and less "issues" for beginners. However, my friend and I are both advanced level drivers/instructors and we like to go to new tracks. A visit to the big track is definitely on our list. I've been to:

Pocono
Limerock
Watkins Glen
Summit Point
NJMP
Monticello
Autobahn near Chicago
Bondurant (I think? In vegas)
Little Taledega in Alabama
Motorsports Ranch in Texas
Streets of Willow several times
Shannonville
Mosport DDT

There are still several I'd love to check out including the big track at Mosport. I'd love to have checked out Bridgehampton. Mt Tremblant sounds nice but expensive (now). Laguna, Road America, Road Atlanta, what's the newish one in Utah? I think that's it for now
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      05-08-2009, 03:23 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kieranlavin View Post
Sorry, I just now got a chance to look at the video.

Take this with a grain of salt as it's coming from a driver of a momentum car. These are merely suggestions and I always tell people to try it both ways and see which way you prefer. At least if you TRY my way and decide that you like your way better, you've given it a shot and tried something new!

Turn 5 after the bus stop it seems like you're not using all of the track to the left there. One lap it seemed worse than the one prior (around 5:30 is the one I'm saying is worse than prior). On that lap, it seemed like you only came out to about halfway across the track and then started diving back in for turn 5. Let the car track out to the left and then stay out there a bit. Even for people that I saw getting out there and using that part of the track, they were still turning in too early. There is a point where you can see a traffic light. If you look for that light, there's a point where it'll intersect with a light pole behind it. THAT is where I was having people turn in. On the GTR last October the guy picked up another 5 or so MPH going into the laces when I had him do that
Thanks for the observation. That's been on my mind as well, and it is a valid thing to try, and I will next time.
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      05-08-2009, 03:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Subw00er View Post
Lucid, I am wondering this too. On my z06, my NAPA rotors would last two to three events and the (much more expensive) OEM rotors would last 4-5. I am curious how the oem M3 rotors faired. Do you see any spidering yet?
No cracks, but they are badly scored by the HT10s.
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      05-09-2009, 01:46 PM   #43
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I was wondering about the timing of the spray. Did you simply spray each time you went through a major braking zone? Yeah, post pics!
I could not find the pics that show the steam but this one was from the same day.I had probally run out of water by this point!


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      05-09-2009, 02:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyBobby View Post
This answers the question I asked in the other thread about using endurance type pads on our heavy cars. I went through this process on my last car until I found the right pad. A costly exercise but it really made me understand the importance of using the right pad for the application. As soon as you move out of the heat range of a pad, it will either fade, wear rapidly, or even crumble like you described. I'm sure any top tier race pad will fare better. And ducting will certainly help
Did your rotors get any surface cracking? If not, you've probably got a lot more thermal capacity left to take advantage of a hotter pad
Good point. Yes, the full race pads have a higher MOT than endurance pads like the RS19s. No cracking, so the pads and cooling seem to be the limiting case indeed.
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