BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-20-2009, 11:27 PM   #67
jaeS4
Private
5
Rep
72
Posts

 
Drives: s4
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Yes, but to lesser extent as DR got much closer to Porsche's time with the GT2 than they did to Nissan's 7:29 time in the GTR. Has Sport Auto (I think that's the mag. that compiles ring times) tested the GT-R yet?
As far as i know, they haven't. I guess the difference of 16 secs. with GT2 and 26 secs. with the GTR from DR's test results is quite a big difference between the two. Considering that the GT2 is supposedly more powerful and lighter but then again, it doesn't have the advantage of AWD. But regardless, they're both still essentially way off judging by DR's test results.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 01:37 AM   #68
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
May be you forgot to add that Chris did say that the GTR was a friend's car on lone which might make you not want to put the last possible second out of the car in fear of an accident, unlike the Porsche factory supplied GT2. You also forgot to mention that the GTR was equipped with Bridgestones and not Dunlops which are approxiately 5 seconds quicker per lap.

I think when all things are considered the two cars should have been even stevens with possibly the GTR just pulling ahead based on the above information.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 02:06 AM   #69
JetBlack5OC
Major
14
Rep
1,132
Posts

 
Drives: E60&E92
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: west

iTrader: (0)

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz Next please, tired of this car.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 07:31 AM   #70
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
...If Nissan is serious about laying all this to rest, they should be open to power certification of their test car. They should challenge Porsche to do the same.
Save for twit forums such as this one, Nissan has indeed laid everything to rest with that observed 7:27.

Tell you what. If the probable power conservatism is so damned important, how 'bout we get BMW, Nissan, and all others who have underrated engines since the dawn of time to plead guilty in a massive public get together. Then everyone can sing Kum Ba Yah - and all will then be good in BMW land.

Sheesh!

Edit: Just to put this particular point to rest, there is absolutely nothing Nissan can do to convince some minor part of the population that everything is legit. As a for instance, if they were to pull the engine from the test car and put it on a dyno, some folks would accuse them of messing with the electronics betwixt pulling the engine and the dyno run.

They're done, as they damned well should be.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 04-21-2009 at 07:56 AM.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 08:00 AM   #71
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Save for twit forums such as this one, Nissan has indeed laid everything to rest with that observed 7:27.

Tell you what. If the probable power conservatism is so damned important, how 'bout we get BMW, Nissan, and all others who have done this since the dawn of time to plead guilty in a massive public get together. Then everyone can sing Kum Ba Yah - and all will then be good in BMW land.

Sheesh!
How's it going Bruce? Feeling a bit tense today?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 08:23 AM   #72
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Edit: Just to put this particular point to rest, there is absolutely nothing Nissan can do to convince some minor part of the population that everything is legit. As a for instance, if they were to pull the engine from the test car and put it on a dyno, some folks would accuse them of messing with the electronics betwixt pulling the engine and the dyno run.
Let me respond to the section you added/edited later, which actually has content. Sure, I noted in post #35 that would indeed bring up new interpretation issues. Regardless, having a nuetral party test the cars after or before the runs would drastically reduce the controversy. (Some might say a manufacturer "remotely" triggered a different version of the code while the car was in the hands of the neutral party, etc. I personally would not worry about it).

And, in case if you haven't noticed, the discussion on this topic goes well beyond internet forums, so clearly the public does not percieve it as the non-issue you make it to be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding that manufacturers make accurate claims about their products. That applies to every single car company, or any company that sells a product, in my book. I have owned several Z-cars, which I really liked, and have no personal attachment to the BMW brand.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 08:45 AM   #73
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Let me respond to the section you added/edited later, which actually has content. Sure, I noted in post #35 that would indeed bring up new interpretation issues. Regardless, having a nuetral party test the cars after or before the runs would drastically reduce the controversy. (Some might say a manufacturer "remotely" triggered a different version of the code while the car was in the hands of the neutral party, etc. I personally would not worry about it).

And, in case if you haven't noticed, the discussion on this topic goes well beyond internet forums, so clearly the public does not percieve it as the non-issue you make it to be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding that manufacturers make accurate claims about their products. That applies to every single car company, or any company that sells a product, in my book. I have owned several Z-cars, which I really liked, and have no personal attachment to the BMW brand.
Save for twit forums such as this one, Nissan has indeed laid everything to rest with that observed 7:27.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 09:02 AM   #74
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
8,034
Posts

 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Save for twit forums such as this one, Nissan has indeed laid everything to rest with that observed 7:27.
Thank you for your contribution as a regular forum participant.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 09:34 AM   #75
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Thank you for your contribution as a regular forum participant.
Yeah. That's the fun part for me...
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 10:41 AM   #76
Garissimo
Captain
Garissimo's Avatar
7
Rep
645
Posts

 
Drives: 4 doors, 6 gears, 8 cylinders
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hippie Town, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
May be you forgot to add that Chris did say that the GTR was a friend's car on lone which might make you not want to put the last possible second out of the car in fear of an accident, unlike the Porsche factory supplied GT2. You also forgot to mention that the GTR was equipped with Bridgestones and not Dunlops which are approxiately 5 seconds quicker per lap.

I think when all things are considered the two cars should have been even stevens with possibly the GTR just pulling ahead based on the above information.
You forgot to mention the track was cold and wet, which pretty much erases any tire advantage the GT2 has and actually swings things in favor of the AWD GT-R. You also forgot to mention that Chris had this to say at the end of test: "I felt I came much closer to extracting the maximum performance of the Nissan on this single-flying-lap challenge than I did the Porsche." So much for your claim he took it easy in a friend's car.

Look, you can make as many excuses for the GT-R as you want. The best heads-up comparison of two cars as close to factory stock as possible shows the GT2 had the edge on that day - on a damp, cold track no less.
__________________
2013 Audi S6, Ibis White
2008 E90 M3, Jerez Black, Black Nappa, Brushed Aluminium, 6-speed, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather *sold*
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 10:59 AM   #77
s4awd
First Lieutenant
4
Rep
364
Posts

 
Drives: 11 GT3RS, 08 E92 M3, 06 Evo IX
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

People need to remember, the GTR was meant to go up against the 911 TT NOT the GT2. The GT2 being faster is a foregone conclusion. The GT2 having a slower lap time however is Porsches fault for not driving the car faster around the ring.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 11:18 AM   #78
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
You forgot to mention the track was cold and wet, which pretty much erases any tire advantage the GT2 has and actually swings things in favor of the AWD GT-R. You also forgot to mention that Chris had this to say at the end of test: "I felt I came much closer to extracting the maximum performance of the Nissan on this single-flying-lap challenge than I did the Porsche." So much for your claim he took it easy in a friend's car.

Look, you can make as many excuses for the GT-R as you want. The best heads-up comparison of two cars as close to factory stock as possible shows the GT2 had the edge on that day - on a damp, cold track no less.
I didn't forget, I just highlighted some of the things I felt were important to your debate at the time, but if you want me to include other stuff then why not mention the fact that Chris found the GT2 to have less understeer in those wet conditions, and that is solely down to the Bridgestone rubber.

P.S.
If including DR tests then why not include the one at Silverstone where the GTR was quicker than both the GT2 and LP560.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 11:43 AM   #79
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
This forum's most persistent (and persuasive) attacker of GT-R 'Ring times has lost all credibility based on his willingness to believe that Nissan ran a short lap to get their 7:29 - while videotaping the event for all the world to see. Porsche also has lost credibility, and it'll be interesting to see if they decide to stick their foot in it again.

Nope. The 7:38 was real (although disappointing to Nissan), the 7:29 was real, and the 7:27 is also real.
Why call an investigation into an outlier type of event an attack? You never have "got" me and never will, quite obviously. Occassionally during the course of an investigation an easy answer presents itself. That lure, combined with a brief brain fart led to a poor post on my behalf. If you feel it absolutely ruins any shred of credibility I have, fine, but then why also call me "most persuasive", I guess that means persuasive to all except the great, all knowing Bruce...

Again, even here among the true fanboys and Nissan haters, there are very few who actually believe that Nissan did not run the times they claim. Again the question, as it always has been to me, is about what particular car ran the times.
___________________

Lucid, et al: I did run a regression on multiple tracks and we discussed those results. However, as we know the endless lapping by a factory team with an F1 pilot, with full factory support will push the GT-R into more of a statistical outlier point. The data set we use for the regression analysis is still valid even though it is mostly Sport Auto times. Sure it would be better to have a bunch of tests all run with equivalent drivers, lapping and effort but we don't. The challenge is then simply explaining (or explaining away) the extra variation and tires and driver barely seem to account for it.

The other results were: C&D Lightning Lap. GT-R was a -1.6 sigma over achiever, the single largest outlier. The Viper ACR was a mere -1.3 sigma. The other one was the Top Gear data set, the GT-R here was a -2.1 sigma outlier, again the largest outlier by a lot, the next closest in this data set was the Cayman at -1.8. These results are all running the GT-R with stated hp.

The conclusion that the car is under rated (to the tune of about 50 hp) makes the world highly consistent, 1/4 mi times, regression analysis, comparos to other cars, etc. Nissan certainly is not the only company that under rates but making such a monumental effort and media splash when you are cheating with ~50 hp to me is dishonest and unacceptable. Pure and simple.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 12:13 PM   #80
1cleanm3
Brigadier General
1cleanm3's Avatar
Armenia
134
Rep
3,606
Posts

 
Drives: ///E92M3*RR Sport*Prius
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: the 818

iTrader: (7)

if i was driving a gt2 i wouldnt go all out and try to get it totalled for a stupid nissan. At the end of the day the porsche is the daddy of the two. I will never believe the times for the GTR, a car that heavy can not do times like that. Are you guys forgetting those are pretty damn CLOSE times to a zanda and all the other exotics. A car that weights 3800 pounds will not have better handeling then a car weighting 3050 pounds, technology can not change pyshics.....

i want to hear how its technologically possibly or physically possible how a 3800 pig making 480hp can outpace and outhandle a 3050lb 530 and 5xx torque monster....

So the GTR all of a sudden changed the game and did something no one can do? Are they magicians?

Please dont bring up AWD, we are talking about a gt2, the next best model from porsche besides the Carrera GT...

Its not possible, this car had to have something done, it was eithier a special model(lighter) or used more power, or something.

I would love to hear a reason to the above....

Even a gt3 at laguna seca takes the gtrs.....(my customer , unbiased tells me).

A gt2 is a monster in the straights, not even a z06 keeps up.
__________________
HRE + CHALLENGE + KW V3 + GINTANI + ARKYM + YOKOHAMA AD08
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 01:39 PM   #81
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Swamp,

The 2.1simga on the TopGear track was with a skilled professional driver of a caliber you will see in anything from F1, endurance racing or other single seaters. Now when you consider how basic the TopGear track is then you can understand why I believe with the right amount of backing, seat time and quality driver who has been there from the start of the programme that both lap times are possible from a healthy stock car.

Boosted335 comments do little to this discussion other than prove how narrow minded some people are, to seriously believe that this latest lap from Nissan is fake considering that not only were the press being present but Porsche themselves were there too.

Every test conducted else where has the GTR consistently over performing and just because mister average owner gets lapped by a better driver in a GT3 means little, everyone knows the driver is the ultimate improvement to be made to any lap time.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 04:39 PM   #82
Garissimo
Captain
Garissimo's Avatar
7
Rep
645
Posts

 
Drives: 4 doors, 6 gears, 8 cylinders
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hippie Town, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I didn't forget, I just highlighted some of the things I felt were important to your debate at the time, but if you want me to include other stuff then why not mention the fact that Chris found the GT2 to have less understeer in those wet conditions, and that is solely down to the Bridgestone rubber.
He made the statement that between the two cars, the GT2 was the one he felt had more left in it. That's pretty unambiguous and pretty definitive in my book.

And if you want to bring other tests into the comparison, that's fine but we're straying. I think they'll show that on a track less biased for all out power, the GT-R can run even with, and in some cases outpace the swiftest of the swift. Road and Track's supertest is pretty good and has the GT-R, LP560 and GT2 basically even on courses that don't feature the uber long straights the ring has:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=6939

See "charts" on the lower left.
__________________
2013 Audi S6, Ibis White
2008 E90 M3, Jerez Black, Black Nappa, Brushed Aluminium, 6-speed, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather *sold*
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 04:56 PM   #83
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The 2.1simga on the TopGear track was with a skilled professional driver of a caliber you will see in anything from F1, endurance racing or other single seaters. Now when you consider how basic the TopGear track is then you can understand why I believe with the right amount of backing, seat time and quality driver who has been there from the start of the programme that both lap times are possible from a healthy stock car.
With the all important ~50 hp under rating we have been on the same page here for eons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Boosted335 comments do little to this discussion other than prove how narrow minded some people are, to seriously believe that this latest lap from Nissan is fake considering that not only were the press being present but Porsche themselves were there too.
I would not go quite so far. One of his key observations is simply that a 480 hp, 3800 lb car can not best other with massively better power to weight ratios. We all also agree on this fact as well. Now since the car must be (IS) underated to get this time it all comes down to semantics as to whether this achievement is "fake". In my book it is.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 05:26 PM   #84
1cleanm3
Brigadier General
1cleanm3's Avatar
Armenia
134
Rep
3,606
Posts

 
Drives: ///E92M3*RR Sport*Prius
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: the 818

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
With the all important ~50 hp under rating we have been on the same page here for eons...



I would not go quite so far. One of his key observations is simply that a 480 hp, 3800 lb car can not best other with massively better power to weight ratios. We all also agree on this fact as well. Now since the car must be (IS) underated to get this time it all comes down to semantics as to whether this achievement is "fake". In my book it is.
totally my point....

footie....

You realize its much easier to drive a gtr to its limit then a gt3? Your thought is completely wrong. A gt3 is one fast track car, my buddy who owns a z06 with suspension work even complains he cant keep up with them(only on the straights for a little).

You need to understand that for such a heavy ass car, those numbers dont make sense and never will, if weight was never an issue then why on earth are all the race cars so light.

the gt2 is 530hp and weights 3050 pounds 17lbs per hp
gtr- 480hp and 3800 pounds 12lbs per hp

I would love to hear an explanation to this? You realize how much damage 750 pounds does to a cars handling and characteristics?

It only leaves two explanations to those numbers...

this car had to be modified to be super fast to make up for its handelings...
or this car was a special car that weighted much less...
or both

Please dont use media there as an excuse, did the media dyno the car? or did they put the car on a scale? or did they check to see if the car was stock?

Media is Media...that doesnt bring points your way..

Oh and pleease stop reading to many magazines, they are all fixed and regulated. I dont care what anyone says....

A gtr in real life has trouble hanging with even a gt3. Either this car is very under-rate

Name me one car in the time zone near the gtrs weight and i will honestly stfu. I doubt the gtrs techonology changes pyshics, it cant and get it right it wont.

I would understand if this car was trying to beat a 3000 pound lotus exige, however you realize you are comparing this car to a GT2, which is no regular car, its got a purchase, thats why its not a regular 911.
__________________
HRE + CHALLENGE + KW V3 + GINTANI + ARKYM + YOKOHAMA AD08
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 08:11 PM   #85
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
It only leaves two explanations to those numbers...

this car had to be modified to be super fast to make up for its handelings...
or this car was a special car that weighted much less...
or both
Those are not quite THE ONLY two explanations...

The other explanation, held by many, is the following. Despite some observed (observed by way of 1/4 mi traps) hp variations in early and production GT-Rs, production GT-Rs have about 530 hp. As well a monumental factory funded effort took place: On the observed ~7:30 lap times a combination of an ex F1 driver, near race sticky rubber and favorable track conditions, along with a very advanced drivetrain have produced some incredible times - even for 530 hp at this weight.

That's probably roughly what you meant but we have debated this so extesively here in other threads I felt it necessary to add this. Cheers.
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 08:20 PM   #86
1cleanm3
Brigadier General
1cleanm3's Avatar
Armenia
134
Rep
3,606
Posts

 
Drives: ///E92M3*RR Sport*Prius
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: the 818

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Those are not quite THE ONLY two explanations...

The other explanation, held by many, is the following. Despite some observed (observed by way of 1/4 mi traps) hp variations in early and production GT-Rs, production GT-Rs have about 530 hp. As well a monumental factory funded effort took place: On the observed ~7:30 lap times a combination of an ex F1 driver, near race sticky rubber and favorable track conditions, along with a very advanced drivetrain have produced some incredible times - even for 530 hp at this weight.

That's probably roughly what you meant but we have debated this so extesively here in other threads I felt it necessary to add this. Cheers.
sorry 530hp and 3800 is still not enough to do that...
__________________
HRE + CHALLENGE + KW V3 + GINTANI + ARKYM + YOKOHAMA AD08
Appreciate 0
      04-21-2009, 11:24 PM   #87
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,908
Posts

 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
...If you feel it absolutely ruins any shred of credibility I have, fine, but then why also call me "most persuasive", I guess that means persuasive to all except the great, all knowing Bruce...
Almost right. In addition to myself, there are others here with actual functioning brains who don't agree with you. Your bias (on this topic) is clear.
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2009, 02:04 AM   #88
michaeldorian
Captain
United_States
25
Rep
964
Posts

 
Drives: Beater Nissan Truck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Nissan has officially stated that this is a 2010 Base GTR with Vspec wheels and rubber. Everything else is exactly the same as you would get walking into a dealer.

I definately bought the wrong car. hehe.

Car is stunning in person. For some reason though it just doesn't photograph well.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:26 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST