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      04-08-2009, 08:43 PM   #243
Radiation Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have to ask (again, I believe) have you driven an M-DCT M3?

Although the lag can feel like a good second at worst I am fairly sure it is never anywhere close to that long. Although a lack of response to the gas pedal seems like an obvious safety issue, in a car with a fraction of a second lag to throttle and 400+ hp it is a bit of a stretch to call this a safety issue.

I know it doesn't mean much to you since I am such a blind BMW fan boy but this transmission still gets a 9.5/10. Some anecdotal evidence suggests that most DCT owners agree with me on this.

Like I just said a few pages back this is the pimple on the supermodels face. It is easy to get worked up about, I certainly do not like the lag but it is really the sole flaw of this system.

RJ: Sounds really promising. Test the hell out of that sucker and let us know! Can you find out the software version number. This is critical.
First of all. I completely disagree with you regarding the lag. It was consistently over a second for me and was incredibly frustrating.

I was given a software number, but it was not one of the Progman numbers. I apologize, but it was a seven digit number if I remember correctly, and I left it at work in my hurry to get out. I'll post it tomorrow, but I don't think it is really important other than for posterity. Just go into your dealer and tell them you have a lag issue with the transmission. Ask your SA and/or tech to contact the regional service rep and ask for a solution. They should know a hell of a lot more than I do about this.
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      04-08-2009, 09:01 PM   #244
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Quote:
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First of all. I completely disagree with you regarding the lag. It was consistently over a second for me and was incredibly frustrating.
IIRC correctly you had many more problems than just lag with your DCT, correct. The lag that we experience may be of a differnet severity/length. Although this makes no sense from a logical/software point of view. We have other cases as well of DCTs behaving a bit differently for different folks.

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I was given a software number, but it was not one of the Progman numbers. I apologize, but it was a seven digit number if I remember correctly, and I left it at work in my hurry to get out. I'll post it tomorrow, but I don't think it is really important other than for posterity. Just go into your dealer and tell them you have a lag issue with the transmission. Ask your SA and/or tech to contact the regional service rep and ask for a solution. They should know a hell of a lot more than I do about this.
Pretty much agree. I would like to try to get the Progman number. I ask because due to uneducated and non professsional dealer service departments, without some concrete reference many will likely tell the inquiring person that there is no fix and they don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps even the infamous - "the lag is normal...". Thanks again.
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      04-08-2009, 09:11 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
IIRC correctly you had many more problems than just lag with your DCT, correct. The lag that we experience may be of a differnet severity/length. Although this makes no sense from a logical/software point of view. We have other cases as well of DCTs behaving a bit differently for different folks.



Pretty much agree. I would like to try to get the Progman number. I ask because due to uneducated and non professsional dealer service departments, without some concrete reference many will likely tell the inquiring person that there is no fix and they don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps even the infamous - "the lag is normal...". Thanks again.
I never had any other issue with the transmission other than the lag. However, I have not had it on the track, yet.
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      04-09-2009, 02:01 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I never had any other issue with the transmission other than the lag. However, I have not had it on the track, yet.
I too never suffered anything other an the lag and that is still the case after two upgrade being done in the 7~8 months I have owned the car.

Question:

1/ How long did the software upgrade take?
2/ What were the numbers on the worksheet for the upgrade?

I notice that you lost all of your infotainment presets which was different from myself, I lost mine on the first upgrade but didn't on the second. Don't know how important that difference is.

Trust me when I say that I hope I am proven wrong and your car is fixed for ever and that unlike my belief it is nothing more than a software problem and nothing more serious. Because apart from this pimple that swamp calls it the car is near enough perfect and the best car I have ever owned.
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      04-09-2009, 03:22 AM   #247
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The lag in my case is horrible as it is something like 1 to 1.5 secs in most cases. When you need power instantly, 1 - 1.5 secs is way too long and can be dangerous. I regard this as a serious safety issue (I am not saying it will get me killed but it can easily cause an accident!), let alone it is also very frustrating. Sure when it is crutial I take over control in manual, but that does not defeat the point that the lag should not be there!

In early software versions there was minimal lag but I had all the other goodies that are now fixed (gearchange delay, no downshifting under hard braking, a couple of engine stalls & various transmission error messages).

Still the transmission as it stands now with the DCT lag (only) gets a solid 9 / 10 so I am very happy with it. I have been confident as from the outset that this shouldn't take anything more than a software fix (seems it is and I hope it really is) and it appears that we might be close to the end of it. I am holding the champagne until a few weeks down the road when the new version is tested thorougly by RJ and possibly by other people (incl. myself).

BTW I have sent another letter to the BMW Greece on Monday asking what is the status and requesting to receive a written answer from M-Gmbh. The Greek rep told me that he has contacted Germany and I should get an answer directly from them. I will keep you posted of any significant developments.
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      04-09-2009, 03:22 AM   #248
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....anyway so today the DCT in my M3 threw a bit of a spaz, in manual S4, instead of almost an instant reaction to an upshift command the box was taking up to half a second before making the upshift and the downshift into second took forever...
As an aside I'm certain this was some sort of fault with the gearbox temperature sensor that tells the DCT software to make slow changes when the gearbox is cold. The fault cleared when the car was restarted.
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      04-09-2009, 03:26 AM   #249
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RJ's fix does sound very promising and I only hope it is THE solution to the lag issue and that it quickly gets rolled out globally.

Just one question RJ, do you mostly drive your DCT in 'S' mode or 'D' mode? I mostly use D2 (the Euro default), and agree with others that the lag is often over a second and not just the 'feeling' that it's that long.
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      04-09-2009, 03:56 AM   #250
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dar2008, your experience and others is completely consistent with mine. I am in the 1 second category conservatively, and, like your cars ours default to D2. I am really hoping that RJ has the fix we have been looking for.

I have the DCT, with the issues which have been posted repeatedly on this forum, but I still think it is about a 9.5/10. And that is also having driven a number of different DCTs on some serious track laps.

Although the DCT transmision has had some minor issues, I am not sure they are in the league which Bruce would have us believe.

Bruce, just as a matter of interest, have you driven a DCT and experienced the issue people have been posting about.
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      04-09-2009, 04:23 AM   #251
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RJ.... did they download a version of the software or a patch? I know they can do both. If you do not know... what dealer did you take your car to? My dealer is great and they will find out. It sounds as if it helped. I hope it did. Please let me know and I will communicate with the dealer.
thanks
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      04-09-2009, 04:53 AM   #252
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I know I sound like I hate the system, those who have read most of what I have write through my months of ownership will know that on the whole I am happy with the gearbox, not maybe the 9.5 that swamp would give it but definitely a solid 9.

My disappointment and annoyance is with BMW slow reaction to fixing this/these issues with the gearbox and unlike others here I don't think it's acceptable to release a new product that they knew had issues. This may explain why it never got tested in a full supertest by SportAuto at it's launch which is very out of character with the magazine and the manufacturer.
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      04-09-2009, 05:33 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I don't care about the next three weeks. This definitely improved the performance of the transmission significantly. Granted, I haven't had enough time to try out the myriad scenarios available to generate problems, but this, without a doubt, is a fix to the lag problem.

The main thing to point out as a difference is that the transmission picks a gear and engages it, right now. Sometimes it's third or second when you might want 2nd or 1st, but at least when I push the throttle down, the transmission is engaged in a gear. It's not in neutral. It may not be a perfect solution, but it is certainly a significant improvement.

I don't know if this is an official "fix". All I know is my SA told me his regional rep told the tech to download a particular software upgrade to the car. Of course, I lost my infotainment presets, but that is a small price to pay in my mind.
Sounds like you have the same software as me. I agree something has changed(The gear change feels more agile) but the lag is still there under the right cirtumtances. I live in a city where there is 2 traffic lights but a lot of roundabouts and in the roundabouts the lag is still very present. As I said I can no longer replicate the issue when driving on a straight road and the lag is not as frequent as it was before but when it hits you it is still just as bad as before.

I also get a lot of change noise from the rear of the car that I did not have before.....
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      04-09-2009, 06:03 AM   #254
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Sounds like you have the same software as me. I agree something has changed(The gear change feels more agile) but the lag is still there under the right cirtumtances.
nitramsen, can you describe the circustances under which the lag can reproduced? This will be valuable infor to Joe and anyone else who gets this new update.

Quote:
I also get a lot of change noise from the rear of the car that I did not have before.....
Do you mean more "clunking"? Or is this some other noise such as a "whine" or "grinding" sound?
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      04-09-2009, 06:44 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dar2008 View Post
RJ's fix does sound very promising and I only hope it is THE solution to the lag issue and that it quickly gets rolled out globally.

Just one question RJ, do you mostly drive your DCT in 'S' mode or 'D' mode? I mostly use D2 (the Euro default), and agree with others that the lag is often over a second and not just the 'feeling' that it's that long.
Have to agree mate, lag is regularly over a second when slowing in third with an auto change to 2 and then power.

For me its worst when driving over speed humps spaced at around 50m where it doesn't matter if you are in 2nd or 3rd when approaching the speed hump, when you want to go again, you are in 2nd but no drive which can be frustrating exponentially with every speed hump.
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      04-09-2009, 06:56 AM   #256
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Have to agree mate, lag is regularly over a second when slowing in third with an auto change to 2 and then power.

For me its worst when driving over speed humps spaced at around 50m where it doesn't matter if you are in 2nd or 3rd when approaching the speed hump, when you want to go again, you are in 2nd but no drive which can be frustrating exponentially with every speed hump.
Agree, speed bumps are a nightmare in auto mode, especially as London is full of them. I tend to switch to the paddles when driving down such streets.
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      04-09-2009, 07:00 AM   #257
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nitramsen, can you describe the circustances under which the lag can reproduced? This will be valuable infor to Joe and anyone else who gets this new update.



Do you mean more "clunking"? Or is this some other noise such as a "whine" or "grinding" sound?
I mean a lot of clunking but not from the gearbox but from the read diffrential (Not the usual Grinding at low speeds).
Does anyone know if the differential is pure mechanical and if there is sensors,acurators etc on the diffrential?


To replicate find a tight roundabout enter with about 40-50km/h 7th gear in d2 and then make a 180 and exit the roundabout with about 25-27km/h and there it is(Not always but 80-90% of the time).


The lag with the newest software release has been confirmed by a indepentant auto expert hired by my dealer to confirm the issue was fixed with the lastest release(Ironical but the truth)......

I am 99% that if there was a better fix then what is applied to my car the shop and the importer would have call me Immedatly. But BMW now claims that we are back to "by design" after failing to fix the issue.

Last edited by nitramsen; 04-09-2009 at 09:03 AM.
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      04-09-2009, 08:21 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I too never suffered anything other an the lag and that is still the case after two upgrade being done in the 7~8 months I have owned the car.

Question:

1/ How long did the software upgrade take?
2/ What were the numbers on the worksheet for the upgrade?

...
I don't know how long it took. They had the car all day for scheduled maintenance (15k mile service).

I didn't get a worksheet with info on the update. I was told by my SA that the transmission threw a PV-7 fault code. This was the foot in the door to open a PUMA case. Regional service rep asked the tech to download program code 7842449 to the EGS module. Whatever that means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dar2008 View Post
...
Just one question RJ, do you mostly drive your DCT in 'S' mode or 'D' mode? I mostly use D2 (the Euro default), and agree with others that the lag is often over a second and not just the 'feeling' that it's that long.
I'm currently driving in D3. I can still get a very slight lag, but nowhere near the 1.5 seconds that it used to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alito View Post
RJ.... did they download a version of the software or a patch? I know they can do both. If you do not know... what dealer did you take your car to? My dealer is great and they will find out. It sounds as if it helped. I hope it did. Please let me know and I will communicate with the dealer.
thanks
Burdick BMW in Cicero, NY. They have been very responsive within the confines set up by BMWNA. Please don't call them directly. You should have your dealership contact the regional service rep for northwestern NY (Syracuse area).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitramsen View Post
Sounds like you have the same software as me. I agree something has changed(The gear change feels more agile) but the lag is still there under the right cirtumtances. I live in a city where there is 2 traffic lights but a lot of roundabouts and in the roundabouts the lag is still very present. As I said I can no longer replicate the issue when driving on a straight road and the lag is not as frequent as it was before but when it hits you it is still just as bad as before.

I also get a lot of change noise from the rear of the car that I did not have before.....
You just described my observations EXACTLY. I can still get the transmission to lag, but it is significantly reduced. With more time in the car, I should be able to get a better idea of the overall effect.
I also noted the new level of clunking from the rear end as the tranmission selects and engages gears at low speeds. Totally worthwhile trade off in my mind.
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      04-09-2009, 08:26 AM   #259
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Ironically, I received a response (finally) from BMWNA this morning again stating that the lag is normal behavior and that there is nothing BMW can do about it.

Bastards.
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      04-09-2009, 08:29 AM   #260
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Is the lag issue really only a problem in automatic mode? I have not driven my car in automatic yet...always in manual mode (almost 700 miles!). The only lag that I notice is slowing from 2 to 1. In other words, if I am coming to a rolling stop (or maybe not completely stopped) and in 2nd gear, there is short lag or hesitation in accelerating. However, as in a conventional manual, if I put the car in 1st gear, there appears to be no problem. I have not experienced any lag in 3rd to 2nd gear but then again I am shifting the gears manually and not driving in automatic mode.
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      04-09-2009, 08:29 AM   #261
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Ironically, I received a response (finally) from BMWNA this morning again stating that the lag is normal behavior and that there is nothing BMW can do about it.

Bastards.
Sucks Joe, although the update you and nitramsen got (seems to be the same one) suggests that they are at least working on it. Will there ever be a complete fix? Remains to be seen. But at least we are seeing some movement on it now. I suppose we'll have to wait another couple months for the next one, which sucks.

In the meantime, I suggest people keep filing the complaints with NHTSA. We need more than twenty of them to get any results.
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      04-09-2009, 08:32 AM   #262
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Is the lag issue really only a problem in automatic mode?
No.

As stated a few times throughout this and other thread, it can be reproduced in both manual and auto modes. It's just that it is typically less likely to show up in manual mode since you are shifting gears yourself intead of letting the car do it for you. You can thus shift early and usually avoid the lag.
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      04-09-2009, 08:42 AM   #263
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No.

As stated a few times throughout this and other thread, it can be reproduced in both manual and auto modes. It's just that it is typically less likely to show up in manual mode since you are shifting gears yourself intead of letting the car do it for you. You can thus shift early and usually avoid the lag.
That was my impression from reading the thread, but since I had not experienced it with the exception I mentioned, I wondered if it was predominantly an automatic mode issue. Thanks for the clarification. I'll keep it in manual mode!! That was my reason for getting this transmission anyway.
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      04-09-2009, 06:28 PM   #264
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Quote:
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in the roundabouts the lag is still very present. As I said I can no longer replicate the issue when driving on a straight road and the lag is not as frequent as it was before but when it hits you it is still just as bad as before.
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
This definitely improved the performance of the transmission significantly. ... The main thing to point out as a difference is that the transmission picks a gear and engages it, right now. ... It may not be a perfect solution, but it is certainly a significant improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I'm currently driving in D3. I can still get a very slight lag, but nowhere near the 1.5 seconds that it used to be.
In some ways it sounds like you guys have the same software but in other ways it sounds like you don't. It is pretty disappointing that it is not yet totally fixed and BMW are right back to their "it's normal" BS. Strange.
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