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      03-27-2009, 03:19 PM   #67
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I am not technical enough to know whether or how they violate the text of the rules, but they for sure violate the spirit of the rules... Do you think it's fair that 2 midfield teams and the worst team in F1 all of the sudden have such a significant advantage over the other teams and find themselves running 6 of the top 7 times?

Give this a week.. Ferrari and Mclaren and the other guys will have their way
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      03-27-2009, 03:57 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
I am not technical enough to know whether or how they violate the text of the rules, but they for sure violate the spirit of the rules... Do you think it's fair that 2 midfield teams and the worst team in F1 all of the sudden have such a significant advantage over the other teams and find themselves running 6 of the top 7 times?

Give this a week.. Ferrari and Mclaren and the other guys will have their way
It is called engineering. It's part of the sport.

This ebb and flow of new technology and rule changes has been happening for years. McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, do not deserve to be in the top 3. In fact, no team deserves to be in the front. You only get to that spot by effort, knowledge, and the ability to apply those perfectly. Sure money and experience can't hurt either.

Williams, BrawnGP, and Toyota have been able to achieve this more than others. Good for them. They found a way to exploit a loophole in the rules, and are doing a great job with it. That's been the case in F1 since the inception of the world championship. If it wasn't, there would be no need for a constructor's championship as well.

You can read this article to better understand how it is that the "diffuser gang" have been able to make the rules work for them.

Diffusers are Legal

Also you can read this great book about what racers and racing teams do to win:



The Unfair Advantage
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      03-27-2009, 05:10 PM   #69
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I do agree with pretty much everything you said but still the 3 teams in question are the only three teams that did not participate in the talks about what rules changes to implement to lower area drag and increase overtaking... What does that tell me? That they purposely did not want to be involved in the process so that they can claim ignorance when it comes to gray areas in the text or the "spirit" of the rules..
Evrybody is always looking for loopholes, these three teams set out to actively not participate in the process... I have no problem with everyone starting on a level playing field at the start of a season with as much rule changes, then go out and find loopholes to improve perfmance.. That's not why they did
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      03-27-2009, 06:09 PM   #70
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F1 should never start with an even playing field. It's the pinnacle of motorsport and as such, technical innovation should always be allowed to influence the pecking order.

If you want evenly matched cars then watch a different formulae...

Everyone had the technical regulations for 2009 long before this diffuser row started & despite Mr Briatore's views, a team should never have to 'share' its innovations & technical advances - FOTA or no FOTA.

It's not like the reset button was only pushed moments ago. BMW & Honda for example, were both working on their '09 cars during much of 2008 and yet arrived at different solutions.

Sometimes a team finds a loophole & tries to exploit them. Everybody then raises their arms, makes official complaints & the offending team has to comply and then everyone moves on.

Eg: in recent years there's been Mclaren's 3rd pedal, Renault's Mass Dampers, Ferrari's bendy floors & flexi wings from several teams (including BMW who are seemingly incapable of paperwork!).

In this case, the fact that 3 teams independently made the same interpretation of the rules regarding diffusers means that the loophole is a pretty big one.

Should the FIA then force the 'offending' teams to redesign the back of their cars because the FIA Technical Delegates didn't make their rules clear enough?

Or should they just allow the teams to run the diffusers & declare them legal at the appeal hearing, thereby forcing the & other teams to play catch up?

The former would stifle innovation but level the playing field, the other would leave 7 teams fighting to catch up, potentially creating a more exciting season of motor racing.

I know which I'd rather have.

On another note, did Mr Briatore explain his Mass Damper system to the other teams before using it?

No? Well he should quit complaining then!

(image below showing diffuser difference & why Toyota, Williams & Brawn GP's are legal)



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      03-27-2009, 06:26 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
the 3 teams in question are the only three teams that did not participate d
IMO the fact that they did not form part of the Overtaking Working Group meant that the 'Diffuser Three' probably just saw the technical specs & rules from a wider & different perspective.

Not sure that all three teams would avoid being part of the OWG so that they could 'claim ignorance'. How would they even know that there would be grey areas & loopholes to exploit until teh technical specs were released?

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      03-27-2009, 07:18 PM   #72
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There are always grey areas to exploit in any set of rules or regulations regardless of application, not just motosports..

Of course the 3 cheeters had a "wider & different perspective" since they did not participate in the process and are not aware of the "spirit" of the rules... They should be penalized for not participating not rewarded ...

In reality, though looking at those pics, that loophole is so obvious, it should not have been a loophole to begin with.. How did the regs not get specific about whether or not you are allowed to make your brake light and diffuser into one connected piece??
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      03-27-2009, 08:29 PM   #73
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The "spirit" of the rules is that more overtaking & hence better racing was needed. I think everyone understood this. The D3 teams engineers were just able to design their cars without being skewed by discussion had in OWG meetings.

To call them cheaters is perhaps a bit strong.

What loopholes & grey areas would result from the OWG technical meetings & subsequent technical specs, could not have been predicted in the detail needed to gain any loophole/grey area advantages. The D3 therefore, would not have had the motives you suggest as reasons not to participate.

I don't understand why you think they should be penalised even though you agree that the diffusers look legal (as in loophole was exploited rather than design being outside of regs).

You also agree that there are always grey areas to exploit... well here are three teams exploiting those areas & people complain.

Your point about how the specs being too ambiguous is correct. It probably has to do with FIA & FOA plans to wrestle control from the teams... but that's another discussion altogether!

.
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      03-27-2009, 08:54 PM   #74
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its not illegal....in my point of view...
they're smart to tweak the construction of the crash structure, and maintain the flat diffusor that will meet the regulations that was "written" by the FIA and the "over-taking working group"....

Brawn, williams and toyota were not in the overtaking working group and that was how they interpret the rules and smart innovation to increase downforce and better aerodynamics....

about overtaking working group....http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61511
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      03-27-2009, 08:58 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFX View Post
The "spirit" of the rules is that more overtaking & hence better racing was needed. I think everyone understood this. The D3 teams engineers were just able to design their cars without being skewed by discussion had in OWG meetings.

To call them cheaters is perhaps a bit strong.

What loopholes & grey areas would result from the OWG technical meetings & subsequent technical specs, could not have been predicted in the detail needed to gain any loophole/grey area advantages. The D3 therefore, would not have had the motives you suggest as reasons not to participate.

I don't understand why you think they should be penalised even though you agree that the diffusers look legal (as in loophole was exploited rather than design being outside of regs).

You also agree that there are always grey areas to exploit... well here are three teams exploiting those areas & people complain.

Your point about how the specs being too ambiguous is correct. It probably has to do with FIA & FOA plans to wrestle control from the teams... but that's another discussion altogether!

.
i'd say when the FIA and OWG were writing the rules about limits to the diffusor....they overlooked about the grey area of the crash structure.

and when McLaren, Ferrari and Relaunt engineers design their rear diffusor, they just followed that was limited by the regulations and havn't brilliantly exploit the grey areas and make the car work better....
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      03-27-2009, 09:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFX View Post
F1 should never start with an even playing field. It's the pinnacle of motorsport and as such, technical innovation should always be allowed to influence the pecking order.

If you want evenly matched cars then watch a different formulae...

Everyone had the technical regulations for 2009 long before this diffuser row started & despite Mr Briatore's views, a team should never have to 'share' its innovations & technical advances - FOTA or no FOTA.

It's not like the reset button was only pushed moments ago. BMW & Honda for example, were both working on their '09 cars during much of 2008 and yet arrived at different solutions.

Sometimes a team finds a loophole & tries to exploit them. Everybody then raises their arms, makes official complaints & the offending team has to comply and then everyone moves on.

Eg: in recent years there's been Mclaren's 3rd pedal, Renault's Mass Dampers, Ferrari's bendy floors & flexi wings from several teams (including BMW who are seemingly incapable of paperwork!).

In this case, the fact that 3 teams independently made the same interpretation of the rules regarding diffusers means that the loophole is a pretty big one.

Should the FIA then force the 'offending' teams to redesign the back of their cars because the FIA Technical Delegates didn't make their rules clear enough?

Or should they just allow the teams to run the diffusers & declare them legal at the appeal hearing, thereby forcing the & other teams to play catch up?

The former would stifle innovation but level the playing field, the other would leave 7 teams fighting to catch up, potentially creating a more exciting season of motor racing.

I know which I'd rather have.

On another note, did Mr Briatore explain his Mass Damper system to the other teams before using it?

No? Well he should quit complaining then!

(image below showing diffuser difference & why Toyota, Williams & Brawn GP's are legal)



.
I think McLaren, Ferrari, Renault and other teams should scramble their engineers and design their diffusor better and make use in Malaysia....

until there's not strict rules about the diffusor and the design of the rear crash structure....

i think Brawn, Williams and Toyota engineers are brilliant....like how Ferrari tweaked their rear-view mirror to work a bit like air-vane to channel more air to the rear wings.....
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      03-27-2009, 09:52 PM   #77
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exactly... what happened is that a design team of engineers took a ruler, a pencil, and jotted some straight lines "because there were new regulations" in regards to that specific area of the car.

IMO those guys dropped the ball, for the lack of a better way to say it. We're not talking about a single incident here, it's THREE teams that picked up on it.

EVERY time the change the rules to slow them down, great engineers overcome it. that is what engineers do, that is what we sell to people, that ingenuity...
remember when we went from V10s to V8, anyone? well the cars eventually turned faster again, so then they limited the revs to 19, then 18... etc etc...

Ferrari, Flavio, stop whining, and get racing.
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      03-27-2009, 09:53 PM   #78
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I'm actually shocked the remaining teams didn't plan ahead for the chance that their protests would be rejected. They could have had redesigned diffusers ready to go and could have swapped them in during Friday's practice.
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      03-27-2009, 11:55 PM   #79
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I'm actually shocked the remaining teams didn't plan ahead for the chance that their protests would be rejected. They could have had redesigned diffusers ready to go and could have swapped them in during Friday's practice.
Toyota are rumoured to have brought either blanking plates or completely new diffusers in case the protests stood.

Williams are a team born of stubborn-ness, resilience & integrity. They believe they are correct and stuck to their guns.

Brawn GP probably didn't have time to find an alternative solution.

I'll be more surprised if the other teams, especially the larger teams, didn't immediately run aero tests on new diffuser designs as soon as they saw the offending diffusers in testing.

I'm sure one or two have gone so far as to take it from computer modeling to the prototyping & wind tunnel stages just in case.

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      03-28-2009, 10:47 AM   #80
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^ By "other teams" I was referring to Ferrari, McLaren, BMW and the rest of the teams that did not get creative with the diffuser. Not the other way around

I was expecting them to be ready to follow Toyota's, Williams' and Brawn GP's lead by having larger diffusers ready to go. After watching the qualifying coverage I now understand why... the appeal process. An appeal hearing for the diffuser ruling is scheduled for April 14th in Paris. If the teams that filed the protest immediately jump to a design they said was illegal it would completely rule out any chance they would win the appeal.
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      03-28-2009, 01:36 PM   #81
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Who cares, its racing and ppl will always bend the rules...Good for Brawn, Toyota, etc. for doing so because they've had to compete with the big 3 powerhouses who seem to have endless resources. I'm a Hamilton fan, but still you have to be happy for the Brawn drivers who were out of a team at the beginning of the season and are now on top.

Spirit of rules is how I see International Accounting vs. US. Accounting. US Accounting is rule based, so just don't break the rules, play around ALL YOU WANT, just don't break them. (Even Enron's accountants testified they broke NO US GAAP laws) International accounting is principle based; break the principle IE SPIRIT, you broke the law.... So I think whatever it boils down to its this debate at heart. I'm really more for principle based rules because then there's no fucking around with oh but kinda this kinda that; no you violated the spirit MINUS POINTS!
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      03-28-2009, 06:21 PM   #82
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I don't like the idea of penalizing people for violating the principle of the rules. The entire point behind actually writing down the rules is so you can look at them, see what they say, and then follow them. If you want the principle to be enforced, then write it down in the rule book as "the rule."

The idea of penalizing people for violating an idea even though they are within the letter of the law just seems flawed to me. It reaks of elitism and tyranny as the "principle of the law" is allowed to be interpreted by those in power in whatever manner they choose. Unwritten rules being applied unevenly is one of the reasons that people left Europe to colonize this country in the first place...which kind of makes it no surprise that this is how European/International rules are applied.

If they didn't want the bodywork to be working in tandem with the diffuser, then it would have taken 5 minutes to write a line about the diffuser having to be a completely separate element with a divider between it and any other part of the car on the top and sides.
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      03-28-2009, 09:14 PM   #83
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Yesterday Qualification Results. Brawn GP was very amazing

Pos No Driver Team Q1 Q2 Q3 Laps
1 22 Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 1:25.211 1:24.855 1:26.202 19
2 23 Rubens Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 1:25.006 1:24.783 1:26.505 21
3 15 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 1:25.938 1:25.121 1:26.830 21
4 5 Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 1:25.922 1:25.152 1:26.914 19
5 16 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:25.846 1:25.123 1:26.973 21
6 10 Timo Glock Toyota 1:25.499 1:25.281 1:26.975 19
7 3 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:25.844 1:25.319 1:27.033 21
8 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:26.194 1:25.265 1:27.127 20
9 4 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 1:25.899 1:25.380 1:27.163 21
10 14 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 1:25.427 1:25.241 1:27.246 20
11 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 1:25.827 1:25.504 14
12 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:26.026 1:25.605 12
13 17 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1:26.074 1:25.607 16
14 2 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:26.184 1:25.726 15
15 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:26.454 no time 5
16 12 Sebastien Buemi STR-Ferrari 1:26.503 10
17 8 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 1:26.598 12
18 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 1:26.677 10
19 20 Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:26.742 9
20 11 Sebastien Bourdais STR-Ferrari 1:26.964 10
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      03-28-2009, 09:17 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by amurph182 View Post
If they didn't want the bodywork to be working in tandem with the diffuser, then it would have taken 5 minutes to write a line about the diffuser having to be a completely separate element with a divider between it and any other part of the car on the top and sides.
I think the FIA CHOSE not to take those 5 minutes to clarify the rule.

They saw the offending diffusers at the design proposal stage, before the cars were even built & did nothing.

They did this knowing full well that there would be protests once the season began.

Maybe the FIA didn't close the loophole in order to split the FOTA or at the very least weaken it.

After all, the teams themselves helped to create the technical specs under the OWG guise. Max can now say to the teams, "Look guys, you tried to make your own rules. Your rules were too ambiguous, now leave it to the experts (ie. Max & Bernie)"

Having discredited the OWG & the teams in the rule making process, Max can then create his own rules without consultation.

Much like how he has pushed forward Bernie's 'Winner Takes All' system rather than the FOTA revised points system.

1 - Bernie proposes Medal (Winner Takes All) System.
2 - Teams voiced concerns about medal system.
3 - Teams proposed revised points system.
4 - Bernie Says teams 'OK' with Winner Takes All.
5 - Max (a trained barrister don't forget) accepts Bernie's word without bothering to confirm with the FOTA.
6 - 'Winner Takes All' now in place for the 2010 season.

The FIA are also trying to cause a split with the 'capped' & 'uncapped' teams proposal, effectively creating 2 parallel championships inside of F1.

I really hope we get back to racing & away from all this back-stabbing, cloak & dagger, political maneuvering that's taken over F1 recently.

.
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      03-28-2009, 09:23 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by drwnwong View Post
Yesterday Qualification Results. Brawn GP was very amazing
The fuel loads make the Brawn GP performance even more amazing...

Button - 22 laps worth of fuel
Barrichello - 23
Vettel - 20
Kubica - 17
Rosberg - 20
Massa - 18
Räikkönen - 18

This is turning out to be a great season already!

.
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      03-28-2009, 09:35 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drwnwong View Post
Yesterday Qualification Results. Brawn GP was very amazing
you know what I like about these results? BMW and RedBull aren't running the questionable diffuser and are extremely competitive with Ferrari and McLaren. And as far as Brawn, I've read somewhere that their diffuser is supposedly worth about .5secs per lap, give or take. Assuming that's accurate, even if you give them .5 or take .5 off of Massa's qual time, they're running similar times.

This is going to be a great year.
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      03-28-2009, 11:38 PM   #87
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1 1/2 hours to go. cannot wait the first start of 2009 F1 GP. hope there will be a lot of overtaking ... & some crash maybe?
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      03-29-2009, 02:50 AM   #88
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very amazing GP! both Brawn GP Finish 1st & 2nd. Robert Kubica hit S Vettel on the last 4 laps, both are out. feel sorry to vettel hamilton are just flying using KERS on the GP. start from 18 and finish at 4th position. should be 3rd, but suddenly button overtakes him when the safety car out. Ferrari got a really bad day, both massa & kimi are out looks like they got tech problems

just cannot wait another great GP next week
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