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View Poll Results: allow AIG to fail?
no - bail them out 13 27.08%
yes - FAIL!!!! 35 72.92%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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      03-21-2009, 04:39 PM   #23
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news flash - people have virtually stopped buying cars. check the news.

also on Iraq, this is one of the first comagn promises Barack broke. after being elected he extended the time he promised.

but not back to AIG....
Not sure what news you are watching. Maybe car sales are down in USA.

Hyundai, Kia, Subaru, used cars in general sales are up compared to last year.
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      03-21-2009, 05:05 PM   #24
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Not sure what news you are watching. Maybe car sales are down in USA.

Hyundai, Kia, Subaru, used cars in general sales are up compared to last year.
Those are pretty much it. Everyone else is down and down big.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/b...-year-edition/
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      03-21-2009, 06:24 PM   #25
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I think what we SHOULD allow them to do is sever AIG insurance from the financial wing, and let those bozos fail. Letting the insurance division fail would be catastrophic, but I'd still rather see that than a full blown bailout, though it would likely mean significant economical colapse.
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      03-21-2009, 06:25 PM   #26
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also on Iraq, this is one of the first comagn promises Barack broke. after being elected he extended the time he promised.

I actually think this is a good thing. He probably got new info.
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      03-21-2009, 06:33 PM   #27
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Hey doc, I was being serious when I asked about the numbers I was not comparing which is worst. When I mentioned Obama is funding more money I'm just stating the fact more wasted money in a fruitless war. Yes I understand that if we pull troops back all would be wasted and so on. I think people on here a little too touchy these days. I was not trying to be a smartass perhaps you just read it the wrong way
This war WAS a waste with no clear (or justified) cause. We were clearly lied to otherwise NO sane person would commit hundreds of thousands of troops and trillions of $$$ just to "spread the democracy somewhere else". Bush used the tragedy of 9/11 to manipulate public, elected officials and some foreign leaders into this mess. And no one has done anything about it. Sad.

What were the other bail outs prior to last year's one? I am talking last, lets say, 15 years...

Prior to Reagan, we pretty much had no debt. After him, unfortunately only the Democrats tried to balance budget and get out of the deficit and more debt. We cannot function without huge deficit and enormous debt any more.

Finally, my point about the withdrawal from iraq was not so that everything "achieved" so far would be erased, but, with 6 years over there, vehicles, technology, 150k people and so on, there is absolutely no way to move all that back within a year, not 2 months...

Also, I don't believe we have yet seen the consequences of Bush's war -- economy-wise. Hence, this recession (downturn) IMO is just starting....
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      03-21-2009, 07:10 PM   #28
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No where in my statement do I ever state I agree with the war, I have a feeling you think I'm playing republican vs democatic game, I don't care for either party. I was stating I agree with you on the war that it's a total waste of resourses. I never said anything about pulling troops back asap, I just stated facts more wasted money is being funded 50 billion by Obama, I'm sorry I don't care if it's God that provide fund it's still wrong. Before tarp we had bail out for fannie mae and freddie mac, educational funding, health plan, Aig, 1st stimulus check and so on, I can find the complete draw out for you later to prove my point.
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      03-21-2009, 07:20 PM   #29
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I am almost always a laissez-faire advocate but with AIG it's too complicated. they insured too many CDOs, mainly residential MBS in order to give shaky assets AAA ratings, because they have to pay out that insurance to the various banks that hold them when those assets fail, the bailout propping up AIG is really propping up a very substantial part of the banking industry and if we let them go by the wayside many large banks could become insolvent and fail in the wake
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      03-21-2009, 08:15 PM   #30
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Here's the most current update from 2007 till now of total bailout money borrowed over 12.4 trillion dollar http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/s...out_scorecard/
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      03-22-2009, 08:57 AM   #31
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No where in my statement do I ever state I agree with the war, I have a feeling you think I'm playing republican vs democatic game, I don't care for either party. I was stating I agree with you on the war that it's a total waste of resourses. I never said anything about pulling troops back asap, I just stated facts more wasted money is being funded 50 billion by Obama, I'm sorry I don't care if it's God that provide fund it's still wrong. Before tarp we had bail out for fannie mae and freddie mac, educational funding, health plan, Aig, 1st stimulus check and so on, I can find the complete draw out for you later to prove my point.
To your reply in bold:
So, I don't get it -- you're blaming Obama for something completely impossible. He inherited the war(s) and you expect him to just stop paying for what we have there? Are the soldiers supposed to fund it out of their pockets??? Supposedly you understand that it is impossible to pull the troops out over night, yet, you write the statement like that...
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      03-22-2009, 09:01 AM   #32
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Here's the most current update from 2007 till now of total bailout money borrowed over 12.4 trillion dollar http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/s...out_scorecard/
Things don't add up.
Our current debt is just over $11T. A year ago it was about $9T. How did we "borrow" $12.4T, yet our debt increased "only" by $2T???
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      03-22-2009, 10:22 AM   #33
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Cause the 11 trillion is not accurate the real number is 56 trillion.

I'm not as optimistic as you about our leaders, the 50-70 billion is actually part of the fund for 2009, next month the full funding will be announce next month including how much is needed for 2010. Believe what you want but I won't believe it until I see the troops coming home. That's when I see a change.
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Last edited by johnnymu; 03-22-2009 at 02:15 PM.
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      03-22-2009, 10:28 AM   #34
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Cause the 11 trillion is not accurate the real number is 56 trillion.

I'm not as optimistic as you about our leaders, the 50-70 billion is actually part of the fund for 2009, next month the full funding will be announce next month including how much is needed for 2010. Believe what you want but I won't believe it until I see the troops coming home. That's when I see a change.
Again,

I don't think you understand what is currently involved in Iraq and how much time, money and effort is needed to pull the troops and technology out of there...

Yes, I do believe that Obama is against wars, for the diplomacy and will get the troops out of that mess sooner than Bush or McCain would.
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      03-22-2009, 10:41 AM   #35
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I agree his agenda is much better than the alternative.
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      03-25-2009, 11:56 PM   #36
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I am almost always a laissez-faire advocate but with AIG it's too complicated. they insured too many CDOs, mainly residential MBS in order to give shaky assets AAA ratings, because they have to pay out that insurance to the various banks that hold them when those assets fail, the bailout propping up AIG is really propping up a very substantial part of the banking industry and if we let them go by the wayside many large banks could become insolvent and fail in the wake
Exactly, they are involved in way too many swaps to be able to match the counter parties up in reasonable amount of time.
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      03-26-2009, 10:09 AM   #37
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^ yep, and I didn't even get into the swaps above, they were even crazier because they didn't even have to be securitized, it was just like gambling on things succeeding and failing!!
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      03-26-2009, 12:20 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
Cause the 11 trillion is not accurate the real number is 56 trillion.

I'm not as optimistic as you about our leaders, the 50-70 billion is actually part of the fund for 2009, next month the full funding will be announce next month including how much is needed for 2010. Believe what you want but I won't believe it until I see the troops coming home. That's when I see a change.

With your number of 56 trillion, what was the debt number before Bush entered office, given your 56 trillion number? What about before/after Reagan? Both Presidents roughly doubled the national debt according to the commonly quoted debt service levels. It would be interesting to know how much each of them raised the national debt based upon the 56 trillion numbers.

I'm assuming this number is counting the cost of paying back the debt holders in the future with interest, measured in current dollars, right? Or is this measure made by adjusting for "future dollars" by using a projected inflation rate? If so, what inflation rate was projected?
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      03-26-2009, 12:45 PM   #39
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actions without consequences...what could be better...

I can hear the discussions in the board room 5 or 10 years from now (a really long time for some of you )..."so there is a 5% percent chance that this strategy will blow-up and destroy the company...and a 95% chance that we will make a lot of money in the short term...lets do it...'cause if it blows up...we are too big to fail and the government has our back..."

Plain and simple...this is what the bankruptcy code is for...why save Merril and not Lehman??
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      03-26-2009, 09:58 PM   #40
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actions without consequences...what could be better...

I can hear the discussions in the board room 5 or 10 years from now (a really long time for some of you )..."so there is a 5% percent chance that this strategy will blow-up and destroy the company...and a 95% chance that we will make a lot of money in the short term...lets do it...'cause if it blows up...we are too big to fail and the government has our back..."

Plain and simple...this is what the bankruptcy code is for...why save Merril and not Lehman??
hell - they can do it even if there is a 95% chance to FAIL becuase us taxpayers will bail them.

let remember - its not the Government giving them money - is the government giving them OUR money!!!!!
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      03-26-2009, 10:59 PM   #41
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let's try not to look at this only from the view today. three years ago they were all pretty much doing the same thing. the idea of swaps was theoretically sound in that the idea was to spread risk around the global economy to reduce the share of risk everyone had. now of course they did it so much that they basically made everyones portion as risky as the whole should have been but what I am getting at is how easy it is to look back and just let ourselves blow up. Think about all these shaky home loans. not only did the government push for them with the CRA, but many lenders were doing it. I am not saying it's right to do it if everyone else is but think about it this way, how would the public and news media have reacted in the "great" times that were 2004-2006 if all lenders said we wont loan money to these risky folks even in these good times. there probably would have been outcry against the big bad corporations for not lending money to lower socioeconomic classes. And then where on earth is the responsibility on behalf of the homeowners, especially those refinancing. If you are going back to the bank to refinance every couple years, or every year or every few months and even though they are pushing you into it, at what point do you say getting tens of thousands of dollars every time you do this is wrong, that it's unsustainable and maybe risky. Are people really that stupid to think they can just keep getting money and not have to worry about the risks of the borrowing?

I am not in the mortgage industry and have not been affiliated with any of these companies' activities during the whole economic crisis. I agree that what occurred was egregious, irresponsible and immoral if not criminal. BUT, I think we need to look at this from both ends and not just from the rear view mirror. If all this activity was so blatantly wrong and so obviously needing regulation then why didn't the politicians jump on it 3 years ago? Oh that's right, they all needed the campaign funds and none of them was going to go against what was putting record number of Americans into homes as owners. But the blood has been spilled and the sharks in washington have circled, now we all get to watch and see how hard they bite!
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      03-27-2009, 12:19 AM   #42
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actions without consequences...what could be better...

I can hear the discussions in the board room 5 or 10 years from now (a really long time for some of you )..."so there is a 5% percent chance that this strategy will blow-up and destroy the company...and a 95% chance that we will make a lot of money in the short term...lets do it...
This is exactly what has been going on the last few years, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the gov't bailouts.

They already had their golden parachutes, the bailouts are just icing on the cake. They didn't change their mindsets.

For years top execs have been making decisions about running the businesses based upon jacking up the stock price in order to increase their bonus, not on the long term health of the company.

They get their gold and then parachute out. They don't give a damn about the mess they leave behind.
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      03-27-2009, 07:41 AM   #43
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hell - they can do it even if there is a 95% chance to FAIL becuase us taxpayers will bail them.

let remember - its not the Government giving them money - is the government giving them OUR money!!!!!
WOW, such a narrow mindede view just because "the other side" is doing it...
Try putting on the paper what if we let them (AIG, banks...) fail, if we let GM, Ford and Chrysler fail... WHat if the Gov't stops pushing FEDEX to buy Boeing planes... WHat if the Gov't would stop pushing Motorola phones... WHat would be left of our (once leading) industry??? How many extra people would be on the streets...

All you think is "your" taxpayer money. THat money is gone. I'd much rather see it go and save millions of jobs than invade another sovereign country and further destroy the future of my kids...
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