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View Poll Results: Concerning science and religion...
I believe that science has completely disproven the existence of God. 5 21.74%
I believe that science complements or supports the belief in God. 10 43.48%
I am a strict evolutionist (No intelligent design) 9 39.13%
I am a Creationist (God designed the Universe and its inhabitants) 7 30.43%
I have not decided between strict evolution and Creation. 0 0%
I believe there is life on other planets. 15 65.22%
I believe that earth has been visited by inhabitants of other planets. 4 17.39%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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      03-22-2009, 09:32 AM   #1
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Reconciling Evolution and Creation- Dinosaurs Pt.3

Well, I was going to post this on the "Do you believe in God, Dinosaurs Pt.2" thread but, now that it has a life of its own, this would just get buried in that discussion and be lost...kinda like the dinosaurs.

I started the other thread in response to the post about a Christian woman reportedly stating that dinosaurs did not exist. ( http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242326 ).

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Originally Posted by inabis View Post
I was having a discussion with someone at work today and I heard something that I hadn't up to this point: Dinosaurs aren't real? I literally was confused for a minute. She said she was Christian and since it wasn't in the Bible she didn't believe in it.

I don't want to start a flame war but a lot of my friends are Christian and believe dinosaurs existed. Like I said she's the first person I've met who said this so i don't necessarily think it's a religion thing. It's said God created the world in 6 days, who's to say he didn't destroy something in that time as well? Does anyone else not believe they existed? This seriously baffles me.

Discuss.
Now, none of us know everything. Agreed? Some people know much more than others. Some are quite ignorant. I know, I know- I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. But let's keep these things in mind as we go down this fossilized path, knowing that there are people who have dedicated their lives to the studies of both evolution and "creation science". It's OK to have an uneducated opinion about a topic, but before we start calling people names, we might wanna do a little research on what has been discovered by such authorities. Just for your files, here is a link for you on the latter,: http://www.icr.org/

First of all, OF COURSE dinosaurs exist. Not many thinking people can deny the fossil records. What have scientists been doing- faking all of these fossil discoveries while conspiring to disprove the existence of God? (Kinda like the fake moon landing conspiracy idea?). NO. They have found what they have found, and doing so, they have no more disproven the existence of a higher, creative power or contradicted the Christian Bible than anyone on this forum is capable of doing. Their- and our- interpretation of these findings is what is in question and both camps, atheists and believers, have their own ideas.

But, the Bible does not deny the existence of dinosaurs like our poor, uneducated Christian woman believes. In fact, many theologians believe that there are passages (in The Book of Job) that support the existence of dinosaurs. Those, too, are a topic for discussion and interpretation but I have found that the existence of the thunder lizards, et al, is really not in question any more among the vast majority of thinking Christians. Dinosaurs existed. Let's move on.

But when? Ahhh...that's the cool part. Yes, Jews and many Christians alike believe that the current earth as we know it is less than 6000 years old. Before you choke on your own laughter, understand the qualifying passage. This is the suggested age of the earth since Adam and Eve, the first humans on earth who had the "breath of life" given to them by God (Genesis 2:7, KJV ). The cool thing to see- whether you are a believer in God or not- is that there were others before them!

And, it is all right there in the Book of Genesis. The VAST majority of Christians and Jews have never read Genesis 1 and 2 "correctly". For an exercise, go read these two short Books and make note of the details and the differences in the timing of things. The order of the two creations in Genesis 1 and 2 are opposite. In Genesis 1, man is created last and God does not breathe "the breath of life" into him. God does not do this until the creation story in Book 2, in which man is created first, followed by the creation of the garden and the animals. Many look at Genesis 2 as a "retelling" of the creation story but it is not...the order is completely different. It is a separate creation.

So now how do we reconcile the fact that they have now found hominid (man-like) foot prints in the same fossil layers as dinosaurs??? How do we talk about "cavemen" and Creation in the same sentence? Many Christians believe in dinosaurs but get all out of whack when the discussion turns to Neanderthal or Australopithecus robustus. But, more and more theologians are accepting the idea that there was more than one creation and that the fossil records are completely in keeping with the Biblical account- the latter simply being incomplete, not "incorrect".

Soooooo, how old is the earth again??? It can be millions and millions of years old, just as scientists say. There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts this. However, some creation scientists believe that many of the fossils discovered are not as old as our past and current carbon dating methods suggest, citing the fact that carbon is decaying faster now than it was back in the days of the dinosaurs and the firmament that surrounded the earth before it was destroyed by the asteroid that hit the earth (in the Gulf of Mexico), shifting the earth's axis about 33 degrees, and wiping out the dinosaurs. (Check what's known about this.)

Why God did this is a very interesting discussion but if we can't get past this first part, there is no need to even go there.

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens" is what many now believe is the key verse, found in Genesis 2:4 (King James version). A rising number of theologians believe this verse confirms multiple creations. This passage is then followed by the creation of Adam and Eve- the final set of humans from which all man came. (Again, the order is completely out of sync with the creation account in Genesis 1.)

So, there was an earlier man- a "prehistoric" man (there's a good word)- that lived at the time of dinosaurs just as many "evolutionist" scientists think. We should have no problem with that whether we believe in God or not, once dig a little and do our research. (Oh, and actually read the Bible.)

BTW- Where did that devastating asteroid come from- the one that did what the recent sci-fi movies like to depict? Well, look at the map of our solar system. Earth is the "third rock from the sun", right? Then there is Mars. THEN there is something we call " the asteroid belt". Hmmm... Why isn't there a planet there? There should be if you look at the spacing of the orbits of Earth, Mars and the next guy out, Jupiter. Think that used to be a planet? Makes sense to me. But why would a planet explode? Any others in our solar system do that? Again, look at the orbits. And that planet was one of the inner circles, too. Hmmm... How'd that happen? Was it the hand or God or just a "lucky hit" by a rogue asteroid? Maybe it was Princess Xenu.

Now look at the craters on Mars, the moon, and earth. Study their pattern if you want to. Did Mars and the moon act as shields for earth when planet X ("Rahab"?) exploded? Sure looks that way. Did Mars used to have water on it? Scientists certainly think so, don't they? "Hey, they found ice on one of the poles of Mars. Cool!" Did Mars simply get knocked off its axis like earth or get pushed closer to the sun, which changed its terrain forever by the impact of all of those asteroids/meteors? Was there life on Mars before this? They're still looking, aren't they? No "luck" so far.

So, has any of this science/paleontology/astronomy lesson disproven the idea of "creation" held by those who believe in God? No. Science simply explains how things are done, not "who" or "what" did it. I'll leave it up to you to calculate the odds of complex matter coming from organic and inorganic matter. But like one poster said, "Where did oxygen, carbon, etc. come from?"

I like the "joke" about the scientist who told God that he could now make anything that God made out of the elements found on earth. God said "OK. But first...make your own elements!"
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      03-22-2009, 09:41 AM   #2
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NIce post HiHoAg I too believe that there were dinosaurs at some point even though it doesn't directly say it in the bible.

BTW that was me you were quoting Yay.

Did you see those videos I posted about Lee Strobel?
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      03-22-2009, 09:46 AM   #3
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Did you see those videos I posted about Lee Strobel?
Thanks. Not yet, but I plan to!
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      03-22-2009, 10:12 AM   #4
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I put them up because he talks with many people who have Ph.D's. An astrophysicist, some guy who talks about quantum mechanics, a cellular biologist, and many many more.

Keep in mind these guys are not ignorant and are very intelligent.

These videos shed some light on the possibilities of life coming into existence on it's own.
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      03-22-2009, 10:22 AM   #5
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Moved to Religion.
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      03-22-2009, 11:50 AM   #6
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Moved to Religion.
Sorry the administrators felt they had to do that. This is a post for non-religious people who hold to evolution as much as for those who are believers. We're talkin' science here. If this had been a post on evolution alone, would it have been moved???
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      03-22-2009, 01:13 PM   #7
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Poll added

I have now added a poll. There are three different questions so, you can check more than one box.

Thanks.
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      03-22-2009, 02:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
Sorry the administrators felt they had to do that. This is a post for non-religious people who hold to evolution as much as for those who are believers. We're talkin' science here. If this had been a post on evolution alone, would it have been moved???

Well, the original post is talking about God and the Bible. This is largely about religion in my opinion, or lack thereof. It was moved out of respect to the visitors of OT that arent there to talk about something touchy as religion or politics. Its not personal. I did not have an issue with the thread and wouldnt be right for me to move it even if I did. Leaving a redirect was completely optional, and its there.

Quote:
First of all, OF COURSE dinosaurs exist. Not many thinking people can deny the fossil records.
Quote:
But, the Bible does not deny the existence of dinosaurs like our poor, uneducated Christian woman believes. In fact, many theologians believe that there are passages (in The Book of Job) that support the existence of dinosaurs. Those, too, are a topic for discussion and interpretation but I have found that the existence of the thunder lizards, et al, is really not in question any more among the vast majority of thinking Christians. Dinosaurs existed. Let's move on.
etc.
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      03-22-2009, 02:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by BForbes View Post
Well, the original post is talking about God and the Bible. This is largely about religion in my opinion, or lack thereof. It was moved out of respect to the visitors of OT that arent there to talk about something touchy as religion or politics. Its not personal. I did not have an issue with the thread and wouldnt be right for me to move it even if I did. Leaving a redirect was completely optional, and its there.





etc.
Got it. Thanks.

But, I'm still wrapping myself around the idea of people complaining about a thread that they didn't have to click on to being with. I was just hoping for the greater exposure. The goal of the study was to specifically include those who didn't believe in God and, I'm sure, many of them avoid the religious section like they would the plague.
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      03-22-2009, 04:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post

So now how do we reconcile the fact that they have now found hominid (man-like) foot prints in the same fossil layers as dinosaurs??? How do we talk about "cavemen" and Creation in the same sentence? Many Christians believe in dinosaurs but get all out of whack when the discussion turns to Neanderthal or Australopithecus robustus. But, more and more theologians are accepting the idea that there was more than one creation and that the fossil records are completely in keeping with the Biblical account- the latter simply being incomplete, not "incorrect".
Do you have a link to the hominid footprints within the fossil layers of the dinosaurs? First I heard of this...regardless, using a trace fossil for a species existence is not enough.

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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
Soooooo, how old is the earth again??? It can be millions and millions of years old, just as scientists say. There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts this. However, some creation scientists believe that many of the fossils discovered are not as old as our past and current carbon dating methods suggest, citing the fact that carbon is decaying faster now than it was back in the days of the dinosaurs and the firmament that surrounded the earth before it was destroyed by the asteroid that hit the earth (in the Gulf of Mexico), shifting the earth's axis about 33 degrees, and wiping out the dinosaurs. (Check what's known about this.)
Creation scientists?? Sorry, they are obviously biased and I would question there reasoning/logic in many of their assertions. Earth is 4.7 billion years old.

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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
So, there was an earlier man- a "prehistoric" man (there's a good word)- that lived at the time of dinosaurs just as many "evolutionist" scientists think. We should have no problem with that whether we believe in God or not, once dig a little and do our research. (Oh, and actually read the Bible.)
Evolutionist scientist right here...and early man was not around the time of the big dinosaurs...that's fiction from movies. At best, the popular theory points to small mammals able to survive underground during the K-T event.

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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post

So, has any of this science/paleontology/astronomy lesson disproven the idea of "creation" held by those who believe in God? No. Science simply explains how things are done, not "who" or "what" did it. I'll leave it up to you to calculate the odds of complex matter coming from organic and inorganic matter. But like one poster said, "Where did oxygen, carbon, etc. come from?"

I like the "joke" about the scientist who told God that he could now make anything that God made out of the elements found on earth. God said "OK. But first...make your own elements!"
Well, the science does try to explain the source and sequence of events, the existence of God never enters into the theory. It seems many creationists "feel" that theories such as evolution are an attack on "creation". It is a logical explanation based on factual evidence. I think most mainstream people understand this, believe in the evolution theory, and have their faith in God at the same time.
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      03-22-2009, 04:37 PM   #11
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Wow, very good thread, and an interesting thread to read for those who have not already
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      03-22-2009, 10:10 PM   #12
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both dinosuars and God can both exist.
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      03-22-2009, 11:54 PM   #13
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both dinosuars and God can both exist.
Let's fix this statement.

Dinosaurs once existed. God never has and never will exist.

Lmao at these two options:

-I am a Creationist (God designed the Universe and its inhabitants)
-I believe that earth has been visited by inhabitants of other planets.
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      03-23-2009, 07:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Do you have a link to the hominid footprints within the fossil layers of the dinosaurs? First I heard of this...regardless, using a trace fossil for a species existence is not enough..
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...with+dinosaurs


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Originally Posted by 335lvr View Post
Creation scientists?? Sorry, they are obviously biased and I would question there reasoning/logic in many of their assertions. Earth is 4.7 billion years old..
And many evolutionist scientists aren't biased? The earth is clearly older than 6000 years, which is one of the points I was trying to bring home, along with the fact that we can reconcile this with the Biblocal account. There is no contradiction, except that there is Biblical evidence, supported by science, for a firmament that surrounded the earth, which changed the earth's environment/atmosphere considerably, and caused carbon to decay at a slower rate than it does now.

No matter how you look at it, 4.7 billion years is an ESTIMATE that scientists arrive at using his best measurements and calculations. using today's methods. But the actual number is really a moot point. It's nearly impossible to confuse thousands with billions and we can solve that debate by understanding that the earth had more than one generation.


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Originally Posted by 335lvr View Post
Evolutionist scientist right here...and early man was not around the time of the big dinosaurs...that's fiction from movies. At best, the popular theory points to small mammals able to survive underground during the K-T event.
I love reading about the K-T event (Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event). I have no problem with that, of course. It could have occurred 65 million years ago, as commonly held. There is nothing in the Bible that says God recreated earth's surface immediately after that event.

AND, there could have been multiple creations before the one that started our current time clock. Which means...the improbability of complex life forms arising from the dust had to occur more than once (wherever the dust came from)

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Originally Posted by 335lvr View Post
Well, the science does try to explain the source and sequence of events, the existence of God never enters into the theory. It seems many creationists "feel" that theories such as evolution are an attack on "creation". It is a logical explanation based on factual evidence. I think most mainstream people understand this, believe in the evolution theory, and have their faith in God at the same time.
But logic dictates that a higher power be involved at some point. Nothing comes from nothing...a proven, scientific fact. Please read my post on this thread. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=243202&page=4
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      03-23-2009, 08:34 AM   #15
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But logic dictates that a higher power be involved at some point. Nothing comes from nothing...a proven, scientific fact. Please read my post on this thread. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=243202&page=4
FOR FKS SAKE STOP USING THE WORD LOGIC WRONG.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=logic
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      03-23-2009, 10:53 AM   #16
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Let's fix this statement.

Dinosaurs once existed. God never has and never will exist.
im with you on that, just because there is no hard evidence, with dinosaurs there are fossils, and i dont wanna hear, "but they found pieces of noahs ark", theres no way you could tell if it was actully his, theres just not enough evidence to prove it.
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      03-23-2009, 01:29 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
FOR FKS SAKE STOP USING THE WORD LOGIC WRONG.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=logic
Logic (Websters)

Pronunciation: \ˈlä-jik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Anglo-French, from Latin logica, from Greek logikē, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason — more at legend
Date: 12th century
1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2): a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3): a branch of semiotic ; especially : syntactics (4): the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1): a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2): relevance , propriety c: interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d: the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation ; also : the circuits themselves
2: something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason


"It is illogical to believe in something that is impossible." Is that statement grammatically correct?

You may reason all you like about the presence or absence of a creator based on your observations, science and the beliefs of others but, not only can you not prove that a creator does not exist, the only other choice you have (that complex matter and life at the level we have here on earth came from nothing all by itself) is impossible to choose. What word would you use to describe this process? (And try to be serious.)
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      03-23-2009, 03:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
Logic (Websters)

Pronunciation: \ˈlä-jik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Anglo-French, from Latin logica, from Greek logikē, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason — more at legend
Date: 12th century
1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2): a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3): a branch of semiotic ; especially : syntactics (4): the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1): a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2): relevance , propriety c: interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d: the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation ; also : the circuits themselves
2: something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason


"It is illogical to believe in something that is impossible." Is that statement grammatically correct?

You may reason all you like about the presence or absence of a creator based on your observations, science and the beliefs of others but, not only can you not prove that a creator does not exist, the only other choice you have (that complex matter and life at the level we have here on earth came from nothing all by itself) is impossible to choose. What word would you use to describe this process? (And try to be serious.)
I bolded some select parts in that logic definition for you; those bolded areas are the reason why you are using the word logic wrong.

You and all of the other religious tools out there fail to understand that you do not have to prove that something does not exist. You have to prove that something does exist.

We don't yet know how exactly the Earth/Universe came to be, that is why there are theories.
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      03-23-2009, 04:46 PM   #19
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LOL...as I thought, bible/genesis, etc..com. Utter nonsense. Did find 1 good one on that page:

"However, the "man track" claims have not stood up to close scientific scrutiny, and in recent years have been abandoned even by most creationists."

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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
And many evolutionist scientists aren't biased? The earth is clearly older than 6000 years, which is one of the points I was trying to bring home, along with the fact that we can reconcile this with the Biblocal account. There is no contradiction, except that there is Biblical evidence, supported by science, for a firmament that surrounded the earth, which changed the earth's environment/atmosphere considerably, and caused carbon to decay at a slower rate than it does now.
Are there many devout evolutionary scientists fostering pseudo-science to push there agenda? NO. Some, maybe.
The Biblical account to the age of the Earth is meaningless. 6000 years is a speck of time, geologically speaking.

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No matter how you look at it, 4.7 billion years is an ESTIMATE that scientists arrive at using his best measurements and calculations. using today's methods. But the actual number is really a moot point. It's nearly impossible to confuse thousands with billions and we can solve that debate by understanding that the earth had more than one generation.
True, but that estimate is getting more refined as the science and technology progresses. Please explain that the Earth "had more than one generation." Of what?


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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
I love reading about the K-T event (Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event). I have no problem with that, of course. It could have occurred 65 million years ago, as commonly held. There is nothing in the Bible that says God recreated earth's surface immediately after that event.

AND, there could have been multiple creations before the one that started our current time clock. Which means...the improbability of complex life forms arising from the dust had to occur more than once (wherever the dust came from)
Is "multiple creations" what you mean by the "more than one generation" you mentioned above? So, you're saying God came in after the latest mass extinction (which one?).
If he had something to work with, that would cut down on the creation time obviously ...7 days.

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Originally Posted by HiHoAg View Post
But logic dictates that a higher power be involved at some point. Nothing comes from nothing...a proven, scientific fact. Please read my post on this thread. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=243202&page=4
Logic dictates that? That's a contradiction. And nothing does come from nothing...we are just beginning to comprehend this. Sub-atomic particles are there in 1 instant and a new one forms in another instant. The smaller you get it seems, the laws (which should be considered theories) of physics go out the window.
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      03-26-2009, 10:24 AM   #20
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You can't argue with anyone about their religion; belief is based on faith.

Similarly, a religious person can't argue that a single religion is 'right' - you can't convey, and instill, faith with argument.

It's like arguing over the taste of cinnamon. Sort of.

Faith is strongly tied to emotion.

Maybe a better analogy would be comparing religion with beauty. Pretty subjective.

Arguing over an emotion?

Superintendent Chalmers: "God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion."
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