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      03-21-2009, 05:16 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I get the feeling of Deja-vu, we aren't going to have another almost 1000post debate on DFI. God I hope not.
I hope not. But perhaps a 1000 post thread on turbo lag and how it will ruin the next M...
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      03-21-2009, 06:02 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I hope not. But perhaps a 1000 post thread on turbo lag and how it will ruin the next M...
If it will not be about turbo lag then possibly the possible switch to a Vee instead of inline meant do it.
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      03-21-2009, 06:04 AM   #91
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What about heating problems for an M turbo.

Go drive youre 135i or 335i on track you will see the temps go thru the roof.

Limpmode anyone?

Or the next one.

An M is perfect to balance on throttle thru corners try that with a 135i or 335i. with a tuned one it s even worse.

And try do nice slide balanced on throttle with a turbo. Goodluck for that. You proberly end up in the hedges.

The best racing engines are always the non turbo ones. For the straights the turbo s are the fastest. But for nice cornering balancing on the grip with youre throttle is gone with turbo s. It s either to much or to less.

I say stick with non turbo. I don t see it happen that a turbo engine has the throttle response of qn M engine we have today.
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      03-21-2009, 08:25 AM   #92
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I'd just like to know how they're going to shave 600 pounds off a 1 series, but keep the safety, luxury (it's a BMW) and price issues under control.
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      03-21-2009, 11:40 AM   #93
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Do not look at the 35i engine as the best example of FI. Sure it's very good but it's not a GTR, 997tt or an RS6, either of these show turbos in a better light and all will run and run and run for long enough on the track will zero problems,even the humble 2.0TFSI in all the VAG models has raced in the Nurburgring 24Hr race without suffering heat issues.

I was seriously expect the M-Division to take into account the M3 WILL be taken on to the track more than any of it's normal models and will design it's cooling accordingly, as will they sort the throttle response/balance.
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      03-21-2009, 12:20 PM   #94
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You are trying to evade your initial statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
direct injection will largely mitigate turbo lag, when the two are carefully integrated and matched by BMW M.
There is not mention of VGT in that statement which ends at period. I will therefore repeat my answer to you: this is a misconception direct injection can not "largely" counter turbo lag. If you do not stand by what you initialy write or recognize your misconception I will just have to quote my first answer to you again.

As I said in my post only Variable turbine geometry can "largely" eliminate turbo lag in a gasoline engine. Again, please don't take my words to make them yours: you do Not mention VGT or VVT in your first post, only DCT. I have to hold you down to your words. If you persist I will quote.

BTW fast downshifting with DCT only avoids loosing boost pressure by keeping revs high which is not really a solution to the turbo lag problem at all rpms.

Thanks for giving your source on the claim of 2-3x the rpm for the turbo with DI engine. Prof Arcoumanis is certainly an authoritative figure in the field of internal combustion engines. Since I do not have his book I would ask that you elaborate on this. I suspect that this kind of result is based on a less aggressive version of late ignition or ALS anti lag system which in its original version applied to rally race cars was a blatant violation of any emission standards. The ignition being severely delayed, the exhaust valve is starting to open before the end of the power stroke. Luckily the turbo sits right there and the end of the explosion keeps it turning. The effect is vastly lower response times even at engine idle speeds. The only way this could happen in a commercial car is to reduce the nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions by using exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). Replacing part of the intake air by inert exhaust gases which have lower oxygen density. Where the DI becomes handy is by it being able to inject fuel in the latter stages of the compression combined with ALS. But this would be a pretty big one to pull off more of a university professor theorical research paper than actual practical engineering work. Therefore I stand by what I said the next M might be either twincharged DI diesel engine or variable Turbine geometry (VTG/VVT) turbo gasoline engine. We will just have to wait and see.
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      03-21-2009, 12:45 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Willisch said that we will see the S63 in another model (besides X5/6 M). So it's quite a safe bet that this will be the engine of the next M5. KERS is set for that model also.

The rumor says that BMW spent quite some effort to make an S63 out of the N63. Let's wait some more days to learn about the details.
So it's officially called the S63 then south? Sounds logical either way.

I am very eager to hear the details of this new motor. Just 14 more days until the vehicles are updated according to:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/general/ne...ter/index.html

And I do hope all engine information is revealed on that day also.
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      03-21-2009, 12:46 PM   #96
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KERS is far from being a well matched solution to turbo lag. I see it as a new dimension in driving more like a Nitro boost. The storage of extra energy takes time to replenish. There are potential issues also with torque effects on the rear axle as the device becomes saturated and cannot accept any more braking energy. The step change on the axle load could make the car unstable under braking. Theres an awful lot of work to do yet just getting the first generation of devices safely up and running. If they use a battery to store the energy it is going to increase weight, etc...
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      03-21-2009, 02:27 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
KERS is far from being a well matched solution to turbo lag. I see it as a new dimension in driving more like a Nitro boost. The storage of extra energy takes time to replenish. There are potential issues also with torque effects on the rear axle as the device becomes saturated and cannot accept any more braking energy. The step change on the axle load could make the car unstable under braking. There’s an awful lot of work to do yet just getting the first generation of devices safely up and running. If they use a battery to store the energy it is going to increase weight, etc...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but these cons you mention are all related to a flywheel/mechanical KERS (Torotrak). BMW is favouring an electric system however which I agree will add weight.


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      03-21-2009, 02:52 PM   #98
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As far as I am aware the Torotrak version is only combined with their ICT transmission and according to sources who HAVE driven the two systems combined there is none of the issues that South is suggesting. I can't say if this system could be combined with a more traditional transmission that these problems mightn't arise.

P.S.
In case anyone is interested the ICT has been tested against the best traditional automatic 6speed and on acceleration the ICT gains approx 2m within the first 4 seconds. It may end up the gearbox of choice for the performance application in the future.
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      03-21-2009, 06:10 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
You are trying to evade your initial statement:
Whatever, read it as you like. I stand by my statement in its entirety. My claim was DI+turbos+other BMW M developement will do the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
BTW fast downshifting with DCT only avoids loosing boost pressure by keeping revs high which is not really a solution to the turbo lag problem at all rpms.
It all help to work together as a system each piece contributing. Not sure why I need to clarify every single obvious point I've made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
Thanks for giving your source on the claim of 2-3x the rpm for the turbo with DI engine. Prof Arcoumanis is certainly an authoritative figure in the field of internal combustion engines. Since I do not have his book I would ask that you elaborate on this.
Book is available on line in its entirety. Knock yourself out. The reference was not to theory or to a lab engine but about existing capability.
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      03-21-2009, 10:22 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestBimmerFan View Post
I am one of the biggest Bimmer or Beemer nuts out there (I have driven BMW's since I was 16 and that's all I've really owned since) and I can honestly say I would never buy a V6 BMW!!!!
I don't think BMW has made a 6 cylinder motorcycle yet!! ie: Beemer = BMW motorcycle.

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Originally Posted by ismelllikepoop View Post
i dunno why everyone is flipping out when the inline 6 was already replaced with a v8. this purist crap seems just like snobbery without actually knowing the difference.
The reason for the fuss is a V6 configuration is inherently not balanced and NOT smooth, like the in-line 6 is or the V8.
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      03-21-2009, 10:36 PM   #101
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BMW M3 to move to turbo six; 1-series M green lighted

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-m3-t...n-lighted.html

03/19/2009, 1:19 PMBMW NEWS
BMW M3 to move to turbo six; 1-Series M green lighted




Facing increasingly strict emissions regulations in Europe and stringent fuel economy standards in North America, BMW confirmed late yesterday that its next-generation M3 will be powered by a turbocharged six-cylinder engine rather than the V8 currently under the high-performance 3-Series hood. BMWs M Group boss also hinted that the next-generation 1-Series will indeed offer an E30 M3-inspired M variant.

According to Motor Trend, BMWs M Group CEO, Ludwig Willisch, told a media roundtable that the next-generation M3, due in about 2013, will be forced to move to a high-power turbocharged six-cylinder. The M3, initially offered with a four-cylinder in its first iteration, was powered by a high-performance six-cylinder motor for its second and third generations, but the current M3 is powered by a 4.0-liter V8 based on the M5s V10.
Willisch wouldnt confirm if it will be a single or twin-turbo powerplant powering the next M3, but he did say that the engine will not be based on the 3.0-liter twin-turbo inline-six currently used in the 335i. BMW is apparently considering a V6, according to Willisch, who said that the V-configuration would yield a more compact engine that could be butted up against the firewall. He also indicated that the next-generation M3 might not be more powerful than the current, 414-horsepower car. The next-generation M3 will shed some weight and gain a more flexible powertrain.
Willisch also confirmed our earlier report that the next-generation 1-Series will offer a high-performance, M-designed model. Though it isnt expected to be called M1, the 1-Series M will, at least in BMWs eyes, reincarnate the first-generation E30″ M3 offered in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Expect power to hover in the 300-horsepower range thanks to a turbocharged four-cylinder.
Its expected that the M5 will also move down to a high-power six-cylinder or a V8.
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      03-21-2009, 10:54 PM   #102
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Uh, i think this was already posted.
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Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      03-21-2009, 10:58 PM   #103
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oh oops... sorry haha i didnt see it
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      03-21-2009, 11:02 PM   #104
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oh oops... sorry haha i didnt see it
It's that damn helmet.
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      03-21-2009, 11:08 PM   #105
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It's that damn helmet.
well, whats the point of getting a new m3 if its not going to have more power and if the 1 series M will have around 300 hp why not just get the current 135i and put JB2-3 in it ??
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      03-21-2009, 11:37 PM   #106
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A little more than 10 years ago, a V8 in a BMW was considered blasphemy. They've done V12s, 10's, 8's. It seems a little silly to me to consider a V6-based solution tantamount to BMW-heresy. I'm old enough to remember when BMW executives said, "we don't do FI cars because there are better solutions allowing us to stay NA."

The point is in this "new world" where it appears that energy efficiency and conservation agendas will drive most engineering designs until, or if, the next miracle energy breakthrough occurs, everything must be on the table.
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      03-22-2009, 12:22 AM   #107
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Uh, i think this was already posted.
Hmm...news to me.

Well...if they can engineer the ugly out of the 1 series...I will strongly consider the 1 Series ///M next time round.

But they are either going to:

a) purposely gimp it so it doesn't outperform the new M3 eat sales

or

b) it's going to remain looking butt ugly.
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      03-22-2009, 09:13 AM   #108
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i dunno why everyone is flipping out when the inline 6 was already replaced with a v8. this purist crap seems just like snobbery without actually knowing the difference.
That's not it at all actually. Believe it or not, there are people out there that do not perhaps own a BMW, who view BMW in the same light as say the Tifosi view Ferrari. It's not a case of snobbery, at least not with me individually. It's traditionalism perhaps and most likely as footie mentioned, a fear of change.

I'm a huge BMW fan, but of late I've seen them go slightly nuts with the styling. This was OK as their engineering was as always brilliant.

Now that they are starting to think of tinkering with what is in my eyes a close-to-perfection engineering recipe, I start getting a bit fidgety. OK, maybe very fidgety.

If it comes across as "crap" to you I apologize, it's not my intention to stir up problems or offend anyone.

I'll probably always like BMW, it's just that I do not want to see them turn their backs completely on what I think is their very soul.
Here's my problem with BMW: They're making cars of questionable beauty (not all of them it must be said), they turn down hotted-up versions of their traditional M cars to instead offer of all things M-tinkered SUVs, they have no intention of making an M Z4 (though I seem to recall that's exactly what they said of the previous one), they are supposedly going to jump on the retro-styling bandwagon, and now they're hinting at replacing a truly remarkable engine...

It's all just getting a bit much for this BMW fan to stomach!


But again, I'm just rambling for the sake of getting it off my chest. Que sera sera I guess :/
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      03-22-2009, 12:06 PM   #109
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I don't get the 4cyl thing... Unless the engine is heavily built from the factory, it will deliver inferior power to a tuned N54. I suppose just to keep it from outperforming the M3?
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      03-22-2009, 04:59 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by foosh View Post
A little more than 10 years ago, a V8 in a BMW was considered blasphemy. They've done V12s, 10's, 8's. It seems a little silly to me to consider a V6-based solution tantamount to BMW-heresy. I'm old enough to remember when BMW executives said, "we don't do FI cars because there are better solutions allowing us to stay NA."

The point is in this "new world" where it appears that energy efficiency and conservation agendas will drive most engineering designs until, or if, the next miracle energy breakthrough occurs, everything must be on the table.
Audi has come back to a turbo 5 for the just revealed TTrs (last turbo 5 was in the mid-90s). 340 hp & 330 lb. ft. out of only 2.5 liters. That formula applied to a straight or V-6 would yield over 400 hp and around 400 lb ft; combined with lighter wieght it could be a great performer.
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