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      03-14-2009, 07:46 AM   #23
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can you elaborate on this track insurance? Where from, cost, stipulations, etc...


Is it on an event basis or a time period? Very interested in this. Im sure its much more peace of mind like you say for protection against "the other guy"
Don't trust your regular car insurance to cover anything that happens on the track even if there are no clear exclusions on your policy. After an incident, they do not an investigation, and that's when they decide. I know of minor issues being covered (not sure if the owners told their insurance company the damage occured on the track or not), and I know of one major issue being rejected although the agent had told the owner he would be covered on the track over the phone.

You can buy HPDE insurance from here:

http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/

I used them a few times last year for peace of mind when driving without DSC (it's pretty hard to get the car out of line with MDM). Skierman uses them as well. BMW CCA had links to them on their website, so it seems legit. It's a little over $300 for the entire event, so it will cover multiple days.
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      03-14-2009, 01:03 PM   #24
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As someone who is eyeing an E90 M3 and as a person who has an interest in track day events, what is BMW's attitude and mindset toward customer's cars? It seems as though BMW encourages track usage (which is great) but Subaru did the same when the WRX was launched in the US but would void your warranty if you were caught tracking your car.

So, if I keep the car stock (minus pads/tires) and the transmission happens to explode at a track day, what happens? Will BMW honor the warranty or will they void it as soon as I tell them it went *boom* at a track event? I'm not interested in lying to the dealership either.

Has anyone had experience with situations similar to this? Thoughts?

Regards!

From what i have seen honesty is not always the best policy.Bmw has the three strike rule,they will replace three engines three transmissions three diffs etc,no questions asked,but after that it gets a little more difficult but not impossible.''The key is to keep the car stock'', if there are any aftermarket parts on the car that car will be ''Flagged'' as having been tracked and the ''Review indicator set for this vehicle.Please contact your local warranty office before carrying out a warranty repair''. Bmw is quite slack with its warranty if there is any hassle take the car to another dealer, its the dealer trying to earn browny points with Bmw .So if any thing should happen get the car to the dealer and act like you dont know much about cars and point them in the general direction of the problem and let them go through the process. As a last resort if you get stonewalled ''Sue the Dealer for Breach of Contract.''
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      03-14-2009, 02:08 PM   #25
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warped my brakes at the glen two weeks after i got the car. Sure enough the warranty didnt cover replacement. It even states in the manual that the M3 wasn't designed for track use and that may cause increased wear on parts, in wich case you will not be covered by your warranty..
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      03-17-2009, 08:51 PM   #26
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Don't trust your regular car insurance to cover anything that happens on the track even if there are no clear exclusions on your policy. After an incident, they do not an investigation, and that's when they decide. I know of minor issues being covered (not sure if the owners told their insurance company the damage occured on the track or not), and I know of one major issue being rejected although the agent had told the owner he would be covered on the track over the phone.

You can buy HPDE insurance from here:

http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/

I used them a few times last year for peace of mind when driving without DSC (it's pretty hard to get the car out of line with MDM). Skierman uses them as well. BMW CCA had links to them on their website, so it seems legit. It's a little over $300 for the entire event, so it will cover multiple days.
Thanks! I've got the link saved. This will be nice to have, hoping to get a chance to drive a friends GT3 RS at the track.
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      03-17-2009, 09:58 PM   #27
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warped my brakes at the glen two weeks after i got the car. Sure enough the warranty didnt cover replacement. It even states in the manual that the M3 wasn't designed for track use and that may cause increased wear on parts, in wich case you will not be covered by your warranty..
If your talking about page 120 in the manual it states that the brake pads are not designed for track use. It specifically mentions that you should talk to BMW to get proper pads for track use. I interpret that to mean the car is designed for track use, you just need to make a single BMW approved change for that sort of usage. If there is another place in the manual where it mentions track use I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mind letting me know where that is?

Something happened to my brakes too (pads overheated onto the rotors is what the mechanic said) but I took it to the dealership and told them I was driving aggressively (which is how I was driving) in the mountains (which is where the track is located) and the brakes vibrate now. I didn't try to diagnose the problem nor describe in intimate detail exactly where and how I was driving the car. I acted like any normal BMW customer, a little confused and disappointed that my expensive product was not working like I thought it should. I wasn't pushy or demanding and sat in the waiting room for 2 hours one day and 4 hours the next while they fixed the car. They took care of the problem under warranty and the mechanic gave me some advice for the next time I'm driving aggressively in the mountains. I didn't have any trouble with the stock brakes the first time I drove in the mountains and I ignorantly thought that was because I was not at a caliber that I could hurt the car. Bad assumption but now I know better. My advice would be to give an accurate story when you bring the car in for service but you don't need to give them every little detail about what you were doing nor do you need to diagnose the problem for them. The SAs and mechanics might not be willing to lie to BMW for you but they might be willing to forebear asking a million questions because you are a premium customer and your time is valuable. The first behavior is probably a fire able offense, the second could be considered good customer service.

If you have a reasonable drive to multiple dealerships you might try becoming familiar with them all. Some dealerships have much better customer service than others. I'm very happy with the one I go to but I drive about 8 miles further than the closest dealership to go there. I realize not everyone has that luxury.
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      03-17-2009, 10:59 PM   #28
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Don't trust your regular car insurance to cover anything that happens on the track even if there are no clear exclusions on your policy. After an incident, they do not an investigation, and that's when they decide. I know of minor issues being covered (not sure if the owners told their insurance company the damage occured on the track or not), and I know of one major issue being rejected although the agent had told the owner he would be covered on the track over the phone.

You can buy HPDE insurance from here:

http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/

I used them a few times last year for peace of mind when driving without DSC (it's pretty hard to get the car out of line with MDM). Skierman uses them as well. BMW CCA had links to them on their website, so it seems legit. It's a little over $300 for the entire event, so it will cover multiple days.
Wow, there's a 5% deductible ($1,000 minimum). That's $3,000 for a $60,000 car. I guess you don't file a claim if you just scratch the paint? Anyone know if they cover damage to the track or just your car? How about if you do something stupid and take out someone else's car?

I read my insurers contract and it skirts close to the issue (exclusions for racing and organized contests) but it doesn't mention anything about events without clear winners and losers (ie. HPDE). Are there known legal precedents I should be aware of here or is the language the language? My contract clearly doesn't exclude either driving the car on a track or HPDE events. That would be easy to write if that was my insurers intent and I could tell a judge that.

Has anyone filed a claim with this HPDE insurance program or know how long they have been in business? The "contact us" information is for a Lockton Affinity (they seem to be a management company) but the claim information goes to either RLI Corporation or Mt. Hawley Insurance. I haven't heard of any of them, but I'm no insurance expert. I also wonder how much push they give on car valuations? It's very nice of them to believe the customers word when taking the customers premium but I wonder how aggressive they are in determining the fair value of a car when it's time to pay a claim for an expensive and modified vehicle? I think it's an interesting idea but it's not too cheap and I always like to see a contract first not to mention knowing who's actually agreeing to pay me.
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      03-18-2009, 07:09 AM   #29
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I have met Ryan Staub (the guy who when you inquire with Lockton you will be talking to). He is the chief instructor for the KC BMW chapter.

Track insurance IMO it to cover a catastrophic incident (hence the "high" deductible).

Your regular insurance might cover you (specifically pay attention to the exclusions section of your contract and read all new language in your policy every time you renew. If you are covered and have an incident you may not get renewed.

Lockton has been writing this kind of policy for about a year or a year and a half IIRC. There have been a lot of companies try to write policys in the DE market and most have left the market in short order. Lockton is doing it slightly different as they are only doing per event insurance (rather than buying a block of say 10 days for the year). Gives them an easier out if their models were not correct. Face it, the insurance company has to be able to make money so if payouts are high then they will get out of the market as well. Payouts will be tied to Blue book value as I understand it. You will have to prove anything over blue book value in the case of an incident.
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      03-18-2009, 07:54 AM   #30
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All concerned-

BMW will cover the cars warranty as long as you have no major mods to engine/trans. This is from the main factory reps in Germany! This is further confirmed by the ///M Driving Schools in Munich you take your own car to the track at these schools. Is the same for the US!

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      03-18-2009, 08:17 AM   #31
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Im paranoid now... so.. by getting say..H&R sport springs.. and I have brake or even engine issues... and I bring my car in with H&R springs will only issues with say the struts not be covered?
How does BMW act with a simple modification such as lowering springs when you bring your car in for services or maintenance issues not directly involving the springs?
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      03-18-2009, 10:42 AM   #32
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I have met Ryan Staub (the guy who when you inquire with Lockton you will be talking to). He is the chief instructor for the KC BMW chapter.

Track insurance IMO it to cover a catastrophic incident (hence the "high" deductible).

Your regular insurance might cover you (specifically pay attention to the exclusions section of your contract and read all new language in your policy every time you renew. If you are covered and have an incident you may not get renewed.

Lockton has been writing this kind of policy for about a year or a year and a half IIRC. There have been a lot of companies try to write policys in the DE market and most have left the market in short order. Lockton is doing it slightly different as they are only doing per event insurance (rather than buying a block of say 10 days for the year). Gives them an easier out if their models were not correct. Face it, the insurance company has to be able to make money so if payouts are high then they will get out of the market as well. Payouts will be tied to Blue book value as I understand it. You will have to prove anything over blue book value in the case of an incident.
You and lucid are great on this. Thanks for the extra information. For the record, do you know which blue book value they use (private party, trade in or retail)?

I've been dropped before by an insurance company because of "too many claims". Every insurance company (including the HPDE one) will reserve that right. It's a risk of making a claim or even getting in an accident. When I was dropped I didn't have trouble getting insurance with another company and I don't recall that the rates were shockingly higher or anything like that. YMMV

If you have an accident on the track even if you file a claim with HPDE insurance you might still have to tell your insurance company. Read your policy. At least some insurance companies claim their actuaries can't set accurate rates unless they know about all accidents (they say even in parking lots and I would assume that includes a track). Anyway, filing a claim under HPDE and not telling your regular auto insurer might give them an easy claim denial if you have a big accident on public roads with a high costs.

I'm just pitching out some thoughts, not trying to be negative or anything. If your policy has a clear exception for HPDE then I like the idea that you can get coverage. I think that's a real service. You probably still need to read your regular policy though and consider the possible impact of an accident. Unless you are really irresponsible, you should still be able to get coverage someplace. It's not like an HPDE is comparable to driving 110 drunk through minivans and school buses (with babies glued to the side of the car, I love that line).
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      03-18-2009, 02:30 PM   #33
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I've been to 2 HPDE events so far, my insurance is AAA. My policy clearly states that if it's not a "competition for speed or time" that it's covered. I still wouldn't trust it.. I can't afford to be out $60,000 if I miss a braking point and go into a wall and they decide I've been bad. Not only that, they will at the very least raise your insurance, or, cut you off and put on your shared record that you have had a payout in regards to track incident.

I've bought the lockton insurance both times, at my first event a guy in a red e46 went into a tire barrier at probably 70.. he drove it off (I didn't get to see the damage) but heard basically the whole passenger side was crunched.

I figure, yea it's $3,000 deductible, but you aren't doing it for a fender bang up (that you could probably drive with for a week then report to insurance as you hit a rail coming off the freeway), you are doing it for when the whole rear of your car gets taken out by the guy behind you, and for $3,000 out-of-pocket you are looking pretty smart.

It's a gamble either way, one costs $300-$3300, other costs $60,000...
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      03-18-2009, 02:45 PM   #34
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Im paranoid now... so.. by getting say..H&R sport springs.. and I have brake or even engine issues... and I bring my car in with H&R springs will only issues with say the struts not be covered?
How does BMW act with a simple modification such as lowering springs when you bring your car in for services or maintenance issues not directly involving the springs?
I don't see how modifying your springs can void the engine warranty. They could and most likely would to refuse and suspension issues you might have though.
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      03-18-2009, 02:53 PM   #35
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Wow, there's a 5% deductible ($1,000 minimum). That's $3,000 for a $60,000 car. I guess you don't file a claim if you just scratch the paint? Anyone know if they cover damage to the track or just your car? How about if you do something stupid and take out someone else's car?

I read my insurers contract and it skirts close to the issue (exclusions for racing and organized contests) but it doesn't mention anything about events without clear winners and losers (ie. HPDE). Are there known legal precedents I should be aware of here or is the language the language? My contract clearly doesn't exclude either driving the car on a track or HPDE events. That would be easy to write if that was my insurers intent and I could tell a judge that.

Has anyone filed a claim with this HPDE insurance program or know how long they have been in business? The "contact us" information is for a Lockton Affinity (they seem to be a management company) but the claim information goes to either RLI Corporation or Mt. Hawley Insurance. I haven't heard of any of them, but I'm no insurance expert. I also wonder how much push they give on car valuations? It's very nice of them to believe the customers word when taking the customers premium but I wonder how aggressive they are in determining the fair value of a car when it's time to pay a claim for an expensive and modified vehicle? I think it's an interesting idea but it's not too cheap and I always like to see a contract first not to mention knowing who's actually agreeing to pay me.
The underwriter for the contracts seems to be solid. You supply the value you want coverage for, however the catch is that it CAN'T be less than 90% of the car's bluebook value (I don't know which bluebook value). So, you can't buy insurance for just $15k. If you have modifications on the car that you want insured, you can list and price them in to the total estimated value of your car. As you noticed, the deductables are high, so this is really for major damage you might do to your car. I am pretty sure this policy does NOT cover damage you might cause on someone else's car (the track is a high risk environment, and everybody knows it, so if there is a multi-car incident, I don't see how people can hold each other accountable for financial losses). It covers damage to your car while it was being driven by you or your instructor. I think there is an option to specify a second driver. I can send you a copy of the contract if you want.
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      03-18-2009, 02:57 PM   #36
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I've been to 2 HPDE events so far, my insurance is AAA. My policy clearly states that if it's not a "competition for speed or time" that it's covered. I still wouldn't trust it..
Exactly. Unless they explicitly say they cover HPDEs, I wouldn't trust the policy to cover you, and I know of no regular auto insurance policy which make such an explicit statement.
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      03-18-2009, 09:20 PM   #37
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Exactly. Unless they explicitly say they cover HPDEs, I wouldn't trust the policy to cover you, and I know of no regular auto insurance policy which make such an explicit statement.
Especially when the car has numbers on the side windows, and R-compund tires wedged up into the chassis with a new blue & white wall paint scheme and a helmet sized hole in the windshield.. think about it.
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      03-20-2009, 11:49 PM   #38
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as far as the BMW warranty....RTFM !!!
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      03-21-2009, 07:51 AM   #39
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Don't kid yourself!!!

I warped my rotors at a DE, and BMW WILL NOT COVER THAT. You will be on your own. The service (from 2 dealers) and BMW USA is absolutely the worst I have experienced. Rude, and they could care less if they lose a customer for life (after 6 BMWs.)

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      03-21-2009, 01:20 PM   #40
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Don't kid yourself!!!

I warped my rotors at a DE, and BMW WILL NOT COVER THAT. You will be on your own. The service (from 2 dealers) and BMW USA is absolutely the worst I have experienced. Rude, and they could care less if they lose a customer for life (after 6 BMWs.)

The ///m stands for MARKETING not motorsport!
Some dealers are also far better than others.
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      03-21-2009, 01:31 PM   #41
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Some dealers are also far better than others.
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      03-21-2009, 02:39 PM   #42
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Exactly. Unless they explicitly say they cover HPDEs, I wouldn't trust the policy to cover you, and I know of no regular auto insurance policy which make such an explicit statement.
Insurers cover damages sustained by drivers doing all sorts of idiotic behavior (both legal and illegal). An HPDE event should be specifically designed to be in a place and manner as safe as humanly possible with the single exception of speed control. At the events I've been to even getting wheels off the track is reason for expulsion. Why accept sharing premiums with idiots doing stupid things on the road but not feel entitled to them sharing costs with us when we try to do the right thing in the right place? If you have a specific exception to HPDEs in your policy then for the $700+ you pay for HPDE insurance per year (assuming at least 2 events per year) why not shop for a better regular insurer who would provide more inclusive coverage? For $150 or $300 a lawyer should be able to tell you what the contract says even if you don't trust yourself. Whatever you do, don't ask your insurance company, why trust their response? If you think you insurer will give you a hard time regardless of what the contract says then you should switch insurers.

My insurance isn't written telling me what detailed activities and locations are covered. The policy states it covers "damages" to my car and what situations constitute exceptions. If an HPDE is not an exception, then damages at one should be covered. Someone at an HPDE should have more rights to coverage than someone in an accident while driving fast on a public roads.
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      03-21-2009, 03:48 PM   #43
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jm1234 I am not necessarily voicing opinion on how I think things should run. I am providing evidence as to how things do run. I personally know of a 335 owner who put his car into a wall and totalled it. He checked several times with his insurance company's agent (not a broker) before the incident, and was told he is covered. After the incident, the company reviewed the case, and flat out rejected his claim. He is now in court trying to get his money back. He might or might not win. I think if he wins, it's not going to be because the judge thinks HPDEs should be covered; it will be because he has some evidence (not written unfortunately for him) demonstrating that he was told he was covered. Meaning, if you don't have HPDE coverage in writing, you'll most likely have a hard time getting $70k out of an insurance company.
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      03-21-2009, 09:04 PM   #44
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jm1234 I am not necessarily voicing opinion on how I think things should run. I am providing evidence as to how things do run. I personally know of a 335 owner who put his car into a wall and totalled it. He checked several times with his insurance company's agent (not a broker) before the incident, and was told he is covered. After the incident, the company reviewed the case, and flat out rejected his claim. He is now in court trying to get his money back. He might or might not win. I think if he wins, it's not going to be because the judge thinks HPDEs should be covered; it will be because he has some evidence (not written unfortunately for him) demonstrating that he was told he was covered. Meaning, if you don't have HPDE coverage in writing, you'll most likely have a hard time getting $70k out of an insurance company.
The one thing you didn't mention that I'm trying to stress is the contract. I don't think that what the agent says matters and I would specifically have advised your friend to not ask his agent because you couldn't trust anything that he told you. Even if he proves what the agent said it may mean nothing. There may be legal reason why the agent isn't authorized to create a contract for the insurer. What does the contract say and why is the insurance company denying coverage. Does the contract specifically not cover HPDE type events? Is the insurance company trying to say an HPDE is essentially a race and that is why the are denying coverage? I'm not a lawyer but contracts are supposed to protect us not just lawyers. I don't think any party to a contract can just unilaterally change the contract after the fact. It has to be clearly stated in the contract before the incident. If not, then what is the point of the contract?

I'm encouraging people to read their contracts both with and without HPDE insurance. I think they should trust their contract if it states they are covered. I'm not naive and don't believe the insurance company will necessarily live up to the contract but I think people will get their money in the end. If the policy/contract states they are not covered then get HPDE insurance but still read the rest of the contract because they may find there are still issues if they make a claim under HPDE insurance. Finally, checking options with other insurers may be cheaper than getting HPDE insurance.

I'm sorry about your friend. I hope it's an issue where his insurance company is ignorant and believes an HPDE is a race or competition. If not, well, maybe we can learn something from the case. I hope it's not a case where there was clear wording in the policy and he just didn't read it. My point is that insurers cover dangerous driving all the time. It's not a reason for a judge to agree that an HPDE isn't covered nor is it a reason for an insurer to deny coverage. Keep us informed.
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