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      03-20-2009, 02:17 PM   #67
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i was referring to going from V8 to a 6 whether it's I or V doesn't bother me!
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      03-20-2009, 02:21 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
One thing occured to me...

Why not just destroke the S65 to 3L, and add DI/turbos/KERS? I don't see why a 3L V8 should have to be any less efficient than a 3L I6 (or V6 or H6 for that matter).
wonder that myself.....but if they did...wouldn't you think BMW would reserve the Turbo V8 for the M5?....and take the M3 down to a 6?
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      03-20-2009, 02:29 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC///M3 View Post
wonder that myself.....but if they did...wouldn't you think BMW would reserve the Turbo V8 for the M5?....and take the M3 down to a 6?
Well, the F10 M5 is rumored to be getting the 4.4L turbo V8 that is going into the new X5 M and X6 M, and that motor is itself based on the 4.4L turbo V8 (N63) in the X6 xDrive50i. We'll see though, its just rumor so far. But if it is true, then I am skeptical that it could possible be a high revving motor. It's a shame that they didn't use the S65 for the basis of that motor instead of the N63. Or maybe there is still hope that they did, or at least that the M5 motor did/will. We'll know the first part of the story soon, since X5/X6 M specs are due next month in New York.

Anyway, regardless of all that, they could use the displacement to distiguish M3 and M5 if they were to go this route, so it would all work out from a marketing perspective. I don't think this is their plan, but I wish it were.
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      03-20-2009, 02:31 PM   #70
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that sucks.....do you people even wonder how long will those engines last for example a 4cl. turbo with some 300hp?....or a 6cl. turbo with 400hp or even more for the next M3?.... I expect a V8 again or a V8 turbo for the next M3 since this one is V8 , also M5M6 V10 not to go V8 at least stay on the same level or improve ur V10....
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      03-20-2009, 02:56 PM   #71
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keep in mind people said the same thing when the E36 came out with a 6 cyl
everyone said why ruin the engine, as the E30 was known for an amazing engine
i owned one and it really was a sweet engine
and that was a 4 cyl
and many people also didn't like that the current M3 had a big V8 at the front
and we all know how good our engine is
Bmw are not stupid
they won't release a car that tarnishes the M3 name
a name its competitors wish they had
i am sure the next engine will be just as good as the S14 and the S65
just wait and see
i am also looking forward to the 1M
if they are trying to follow in the foot steps of the E30 M3
then they just might have a winner
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      03-20-2009, 04:08 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Well, the F10 M5 is rumored to be getting the 4.4L turbo V8 that is going into the new X5 M and X6 M, and that motor is itself based on the 4.4L turbo V8 (N63) in the X6 xDrive50i. We'll see though, its just rumor so far. But if it is true, then I am skeptical that it could possible be a high revving motor. It's a shame that they didn't use the S65 for the basis of that motor instead of the N63. Or maybe there is still hope that they did, or at least that the M5 motor did/will. We'll know the first part of the story soon, since X5/X6 M specs are due next month in New York.
Willisch said that we will see the S63 in another model (besides X5/6 M). So it's quite a safe bet that this will be the engine of the next M5. KERS is set for that model also.
The rumor says that BMW spent quite some effort to make an S63 out of the N63. Let's wait some more days to learn about the details.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknot View Post
that sucks.....do you people even wonder how long will those engines last for example a 4cl. turbo with some 300hp?....or a 6cl. turbo with 400hp or even more for the next M3?.... I expect a V8 again or a V8 turbo for the next M3 since this one is V8 , also M5M6 V10 not to go V8 at least stay on the same level or improve ur V10....
That's not likely. Willisch, head of the M divison, told a magazine that it's almost sure that the next M3 will be powered by a six cylinder, and that this engine won't be based on N54.


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      03-20-2009, 04:10 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Well Kooper, many a member here were up in arms at the thought of the next M3 being forced induction and guess what that is exactly what it will be getting. The simple truth is that BMW will decide what is the best option open to them and if that happens to be a V6 then so be it.
Point taken. I think perhaps I didn't communicate my point of view as clearly as I could've: if they want to go V6 then so be it. If they do, I think a lot of their customers might not be too happy about it, at least the traditionalists (me included).

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie
P.S.
Ferrari makes V6s, V8s, V10s, V12s and a boxer 12 throughout it's history, the same for Porsche and numerous other brands, I bet if you looked through BMW's history you would be surprised at the different engines that have been used.
True, true. The impression I got is that on average the automotive populace thinks that of Ferrari's range of engines, their V12s are the gems, just like Porsche's flat 6 is the one to have in their range, likewise Subaru with their boxer 4. Doesn't mean they can't or don't produce different types of engines, but it's what they do best.

Just about Ferrari, they actually do not make production V10s. Don't think they ever have, but I could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie
I say hold judgement until firstly we know exactly what it is, including it's complete spec and more importantly either you get to read some reviews or better still sample it youself.
That's probably a valid point. Unfortunately I do not share your take on it. Let's imagine they do go V6, chances are it will turn out to be one heck of a car.
Even so, the fact that it doesn't have an inline 6 any more, the very thing that makes BMW's 6 cylinders as unique as they are, will be enough to turn me away, possible class-leading dynamics and performance notwithstanding.

A bit extreme? I suppose so, but that's just the way I see it.

In all honesty though it probably makes little difference what I think about it. The engine landscape is bound to change drastically sooner rather than later. This is just me bemoaning the quick pace of change more than anything else.

But enough of me moaning over what engine might or might not be used in the next M3, I'll just content myself with seeing how it unfolds before I start blasting again
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      03-20-2009, 04:55 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
In my eyes turbo's have not changed. If you put a large turbo on a car ull get that high end power feel that you get from an M car, but at the cost of turbo lag, which EVERY1 hates.

If you put a smaller turbo you get the 335i effect. Turbo lag is non-existant, however, the engine dies at anything above 6500revs.
Look below about Direct Injection in turbos. It allows considerably higher compression ratio's, which helps with the low end torque. There are also variable vane turbos now, which helps the low end and top end. So I would say there's a lot more technology now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
This has been a point of criticism all along concerning the throttle response desired in an M engine. However, direct injection will largely mitigate turbo lag, when the two are carefully integrated and matched by BMW M (boy I am sure glad Sticky isn't reading here...). Member enigma has rightfully pointed out that you can't beat physics and the rotational inertia of the turbo fans can not be made to disappear. However, DI cleverness WILL help significantly. Before a large throttle depression the DI system will be operating in a lean burn mode, thus the exhaust gas mass will be higher than that of a port injected engine turbo charged engine. The rpm of the fans can be maintained 2-3x higher! Yes not 50% higher 2-3x! This combined with a rapid shifting DCT transmission for super fast downshifts will go a long way to making the next gen M have very minimal turbo lag and something we will all likely want to drive.
DI does help with the low end torque, but just look at he 335 guys and you'll see the low end torque can still be lacking, especially with the new software/hardware. That lean burn info sounds interesteing, but I've heard it's bad for emissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kooper View Post
There's nothing inherently wrong with a V6, sure. But I find a V6 for a BMW a terrible, horrifying and downright ridiculous idea.

Imagine Porsche replacing their flat 6 with a V6 for the next 911... It's kind of the same thing for me with BMW possibly dumping their inline 6.

A V6 for a BMW, any BMW for that matter, is just blasphemy.
I hear you, but Porsche almost went with a V8 for the 996 but then wised up.
And the V6 is inherently a terrible design for an engine given it's not balanced.
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      03-20-2009, 04:56 PM   #75
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Kooper,

If changing to forced induction doesn't completely turn you off as you already said you are a traditionalist then I doubt a change from inline to vee will do it either.

Also I reckon if this next M3 drives as well as I believe it should (considering that less weight makes for a livelier car with better directional change etc) then I think it would be a bit premature to dismiss it just because you don't like their possible choice of engine.

It's human nature to resist change, even when I may be for the better but I think keeping an open mind is the right move when we are talking about 4 years away.
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      03-20-2009, 05:08 PM   #76
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i dunno why everyone is flipping out when the inline 6 was already replaced with a v8. this purist crap seems just like snobbery without actually knowing the difference.
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      03-20-2009, 05:33 PM   #77
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How about a balls out I-6, I got an M3 b/c I wanted a NA car and I love the fact that its a high revving screamer. I'm all for light weight, but don't take our revs away BMW!
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      03-20-2009, 05:57 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC919 View Post
How about a balls out I-6, I got an M3 b/c I wanted a NA car and I love the fact that its a high revving screamer. I'm all for light weight, but don't take our revs away BMW!
Even with direct injection and more displacement, an I6 will not get the kind of mileage improvements BMW is going to be forced into making (for legislated and marketing reasons). It'd be easier to just direct inject the current S65 for a 10% or so improvement, but that will not be enough.

I agree that the high-revving and response charecteristics are why I love this car and I'm not anzious to see it change.
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      03-20-2009, 06:30 PM   #79
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as much as i dont want to see NA go away, as long as the car feels like an M and performs like an M, i will ultimately be happy.
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      03-20-2009, 07:33 PM   #80
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They might just chop two cylinders off of the front of the 4.0 V8 and add turbos. I trust the M powertrain division, whatever they decide.
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      03-20-2009, 10:03 PM   #81
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BMW PLEASE DONT MAKE A V6 PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

All the prior m3 engines followed BMWs characteristics. First a strong well balanced four. Then two beautiful i-6s. Then a very unique 4 liter v8. If BMW produces a v6 turbo/tt like some have said and myself included I really do not see myself jumping on that bandwagon. There has to be some wall BMW-M cannot cross. They already took the high revving idea out of our heads and forced us into FI (that's fine). But please BMW PLEASEEEEE do not make a v6 its just like your selling your soul to the economy and the nay Sayers. The n54 is a great engine for what it is i personally love the engine LOVE it. But its not a ///Motorsport engine and its defiantly not a v6 lol. I dont want to sound liek a fanboy or a conformist but I know BMW listens to these boards and can you please listen to this thread. PLEASE!!!!!
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      03-20-2009, 10:45 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
Makes me glad I got mine when I did. I've had turbo cars before, nothing beats the sound of a high performance V8.
I second that; thank god I got mine while there is still "M3 V8" under the hood! I have owned the 135i twin turbo six; fun car, but it's no high performance 8 cylinder.
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      03-21-2009, 12:31 AM   #83
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The V6 engine configuration is the bottom of the barrel out of all the current engine layouts. It has horrible balance!!! (and to the people that think it sounds better, Better than what a sewing machine). Most car companys use them because they are cheaper to mass produce and are a lot cheaper for front wheel drive cars. I could never see BMW actual going this route there is just no way!!! If they actual do change there 6 cyclinder configuration I'd take a flat six or a turbo I-5 before a V6. I see no point in this change, the I-6 is a beautiful engine with a great natural dynamic balance so they rev super smooth all the way to red line. It also has some of the best response and you can really use every rpm throughout the rev range. I am one of the biggest Bimmer or Beemer nuts out there (I have driven BMW's since I was 16 and that's all I've really owned since) and I can honestly say I would never buy a V6 BMW!!!!
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      03-21-2009, 12:45 AM   #84
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There is some misconception in this thread that direct injection can "largely" counter turbo lag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
"direct injection will largely mitigate turbo lag, when the two are carefully integrated and matched by BMW M "
direct injection allows precise control of the fuel/air ratio and more even mix which reduces pinging or engine detonation and allows an engine to be designed to higher compression ratio. Higher compression ratio means more possible air mass at lower RPM compared to a non DI engine. This translates to more exhaust pressure which keep the turbo spinning at lower RPM than a non DI engine. However the turbo spining energy is derived from both pressure AND temperature of the exhaust gas. The lean mode from the DI engine result in excess oxygen that will cool DOWN the exhaust gaz which works against keeping that turbine spining (but helps with efficiency). The result is only limited improvement to turbo lag from DI. The effective boost RPM (engine) will only be pushed to a slightly lower threshold for the DI + turbo. Lag will still be present below that RPM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
"Before a large throttle depression the DI system will be operating in a lean burn mode, thus the exhaust gas mass will be higher than that of a port injected engine turbo charged engine. The rpm of the fans can be maintained 2-3x higher! Yes not 50% higher 2-3x!"
you are getting carried away here. Let's check the numbers. DI vaporizes fuel which has a cooling effect allowing a higher compression ratio reasonable numbers would be 10.3:1 versus 9.1:1 for no DI. The stoichiometric air-fuel ratio for petrol (gasoline) is 14.7:1. For lean combustion let's say it is 30:1. Using these numbers in the thermodynamic equation for internal combustion engine gives a pressure after combustion of 158 atmospheres and temperature of 9411R for the engine without FI and 101 atmospheres and 5344R for the FI engine running lean . The Result is not better but worse because running lean kills the exhaust pressure and cools exhaust gas down both bad for turbo lag. Let's see what happens if the FI engine is run with stoichiometric air-fuel ratio instead: 180 atmospheres and 9477R. ! That is +15% improvement only. To get 50% higher rpm in the turbo you would need at least 13:1 compression ratio. This is possible with a 'ping' or 'knock' sensor and an electronic control unit both easily available in a performance car. But going higher is only seen in racing engines burning methanol and ethanol which can exceed a CR of 15:1. that gives 75% higher rpm in the turbo. But the true pot of gold is with Diesel FI engine which can go to CR of 20:1. NOW that is 2.43x higher turbo speed compared to the non FI turbo engine I started with.

To conclude in my opinion there are only two routes possible for better efficiency, low emissions and high hp:

- Diesel turbocharged DI engine (and maybe also supercharged to even further reduce turbo lag at low rpm) See Audi doing that already. I doubt BMW will do that for the M.

http://www.vwvortex.com/cgi-bin/artm...1496&printer=1

OR

-Gasoline turbocharged engine with variable Turbine geometry (VTG). Basically the turbine is made to mimic a smaller turbo at lower rpm. At higher speeds the profile is increased. This is what Porsche is doing on the 911 Turbo.

Last edited by oneginee; 03-21-2009 at 01:31 AM.
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      03-21-2009, 02:21 AM   #85
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why dont they run the turbo with an electric motor that matches exactly the air volume needed / desired at "any" rpm? Wouldnt the lag go away that way and at the same the desired air flow in the intake would be "perfectly" matched at any rpm?
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      03-21-2009, 02:39 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8000 View Post
why dont they run the turbo with an electric motor that matches exactly the air volume needed / desired at "any" rpm? Wouldnt the lag go away that way and at the same the desired air flow in the intake would be "perfectly" matched at any rpm?

You are right and this would work brilliantly, only thing is that it wouldn't be free boost as is the case with normal turbos, the electricity to drive the turbo unit has to come from somewhere. Though I doubt it would come close to requiring the same amount of power as is required to drive a supercharger.

I would imagine that if South is correct and the next M5 will include KERS then the likelihood is BMW will side step the lag issues by also using KERS in the M3. Jaguar are also close to launching a model with this technology so it's definitely on the cards for BMW to do the same.
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      03-21-2009, 04:33 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
There is some misconception in this thread that direct injection can "largely" counter turbo lag.
The 335i has a fine engine, definitely not blessed by the same team and requirements that the new M engine will be and it already has nicely mitigated the lag say compared to cars from approximately a generation or two ago. Proof is in the pudding. However, if you read my entire post my contention was that DI, ALONG with a fast shifting DCT transmission, ALONG with other BMW technology (yes such as variable vane turbo geometry) can all work as a system to largely eliminate turbo lag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
you are getting carried away here. Let's check the numbers.
Argue with my source I guess. Prof. C. Arcoumanis, "Flow and Combustion in Reciprocating Engines". He claimed 2-3x the rpm for the turbo is feasible with DI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
To conclude in my opinion there are only two routes possible for better efficiency, low emissions and high hp
And you are specifically missing the point already mentioned, KERS.

Either way you look at it there is plenty of technology and plenty of development time for the next M3. I'd be willing to place a wager that is will have zero to nearly imperceptible turbo lag.
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      03-21-2009, 04:42 AM   #88
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I get the feeling of Deja-vu, we aren't going to have another almost 1000post debate on DFI. God I hope not.
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