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      03-10-2009, 04:58 PM   #45
scollins
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True, but a vote is a vote. If those 90% of americans see their salaries not going anywhere while cost of living goes up and that lucky 10% keeps pulling further away from the pack you can damn well bet they are not going to be happy about it. And fortunately, the way the democracy works... it doesn't really fucking matter what you lucky 10%ers think or feel about the situation, we will do whatever the fuck we want to with your money-- if you don't like it well then, move somewhere else... nice/civilized/low taxes -- no places like that coming to mind. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesnt it?
Ah, "the tyranny of the majority." I mean, why bother working hard and getting ahead when you can just steal it from your neighbors?

Oh, and the USA is not a true democracy either, it is a representative democracy, more commonly called a republic. The idea being that a true democracy never works, because individuals will always vote in their own best interests instead of the common best interests. And since you so clearly state that you'd be happy taking the money of the top 10% and doing "whatever the fuck we want with your money", I'd say that is a pretty clear indication a true democracy does not work.
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      03-10-2009, 05:41 PM   #46
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Well damadama, prepared to be floored, but we agree on something! I think a flat tax is the way to go too. 10%* on all income; no deductions, no exemptions, no write-offs, no credits, no upper or lower limits, no difference between capital gains or W-2 wages, etc. You make $3,000 a year? You pay 10% ($300.) You make $1,000,000 a year? You pay $100,000 in taxes.

But that will never happen. I think the tax code must be overhauled and simplified. But every year, Congress just adds to it. At least it helps keep my wife employed (tax CPA.)


*I don't know if 10% is the right number, it could be a little more a little less. Just picked a number for easy reference, and one that the bulk of tax payers likely fall into as an "effective" tax rate.
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      03-10-2009, 05:54 PM   #47
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Well damadama, prepared to be floored, but we agree on something! I think a flat tax is the way to go too. 10%* on all income; no deductions, no exemptions, no write-offs, no credits, no upper or lower limits, no difference between capital gains or W-2 wages, etc. You make $3,000 a year? You pay 10% ($300.) You make $1,000,000 a year? You pay $100,000 in taxes.

But that will never happen. I think the tax code must be overhauled and simplified. But every year, Congress just adds to it. At least it helps keep my wife employed (tax CPA.)


*I don't know if 10% is the right number, it could be a little more a little less. Just picked a number for easy reference, and one that the bulk of tax payers likely fall into as an "effective" tax rate.

Well right now city and state is taking approximately 28% out of my salary each month. I would gladly accept a fixed tax fee. I don't even care if it's 50% I'll just work my ass off even more at least I can't complain of fairness.
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      03-16-2009, 08:09 PM   #48
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Fair enough. Government, as a shareholder of Citigroup, should be granted the same privileges when it comes to Citigroup.

But as should be clear already, I am not in favor of government becoming the shareholders or holding minority interest in any corporation. I don't think that promotes free market capitalism.

Where I have problem is when people suggest that since certain companies receive a loan from the government (whether it be from TARP or from the stimulus package), that this allows the government to have the same privileges as a shareholder. Just because a certain bank receives TARP loans does not mean that government should be allowed to control executive compensation or how the company operates. That's government control of business and that's what I am opposed to.

And, as an aside, your set theory analysis made me laugh since I hate set theory. It was my least favorite part of MAT 300.
I realize that you don't like gov't ownership of company stocks, so give us an alternative. Bush didn't start putting gov't money into these companies even before TARP was invented because he WANTS to do it. He did it because he didn't have a better alternative. So stop whining about it unless you have a better solution. It is what it is.

Why do you have a problem with lenders putting conditions on their loans? When I financed my house, the lender put plenty of conditions on the mortgage, including that I had to keep insurance, and I had to keep the house in good repair.

I'm not going to go around in the same circles again that we just got through doing with shareholders having the right to make demands. Lenders have the right to make conditions on their loans too. End of story.

And putting conditions on a loan IS NOT the same as government control, any more than the conditions on my mortgage means my bank controls my house. It is only smart for the gov't to put conditions on lending MY money to anybody, because we need to do everything possible to ensure that these loans get paid back. That is why we put conditions on them.

But the funniest part is that it is your "free market" guys that are all shouting the loudest that the Gov't put conditions on the loans to the car companies. They are the folks that are yelling that the Union employees should have their pay and benefits slashed as a condition of the loan. So I don't see what footing you have to complain about conditions being put on loans.
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      03-16-2009, 08:19 PM   #49
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I'm not debating about feeling sorry for the rich or not but why should we feel so much sorry for the poor? I'm sure everyone knows an example or two of the "poor" totally corrupting the system. I have employees who won't work more hours cause it'll effect their government funding. By the way, these same employees who work 30 hours a week with government funding(free housing, health care benefits, weekly food stamps) and full tax return(5k total return was given to each of my employees) makes more than most residence I know (40k tax free). I'm not saying I don't want to help the poor but there are a lot of corrupted "poor" that makes me not care for. I don't blame them, I only blame the system. Welfare is used for assistance when one loses a job. I can understand 2-3 month help but when one stays on the system their whole life, it's not right.
I used to think you were a whiny bitch. But now I realize you are just a poor victim of the government.

I mean, here you are, advertising full-time jobs with overtime available, health care benefits, paid vacation, and a livable wage that would be enough to pay for modest housing and meals. And after you hire these people full time and get them set up with health care, they refuse. They will only work part time, they choose gov't health care over the private plan you provide, and they would rather live in gov't housing than use their full-time wages (with overtime) to pay for housing.

That is how it happens, right?

Your hiring and pay practices wouldn't have anything to do with it, would it?

So answer me a straight question. Do you or do you not advertise for, and hire part-time employees without benefits, overtime, or paid vacation for the positions that you talked about?

Last edited by Nixon; 03-16-2009 at 11:49 PM.
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      03-17-2009, 07:24 AM   #50
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My part timer get same benefits as my full timers.

You know what after thinking about it I think I finally see the light, you've been 100% right about the system. It's bullet proof just perfect. Instead of fighting any flaws I'm going to join in the party. In fact I need to buy some grocery today, just my luck food stamp just gone up 100, can easily get it for 50 yeah for me! Oh next time you're in vail you should invite me.
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      03-17-2009, 08:15 AM   #51
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^^FAO Scharwz does the same thing.
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      03-17-2009, 01:06 PM   #52
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The Government IS a shareholder.

When you say that the Government shouldn't have a say, you ARE saying that shareholders shouldn't have a say.

In set theory, the Government is a subset of All Shareholders. So when you say that the Government (as shareholders) shouldn't have any say, then you ARE saying you don't want shareholders to have say in executive compensation.

I could draw a ven diagram for you if it would help.

I don't think I can get any clearer on this. You are going to have to explain what you don't understand. This is really getting tedious. I'm beginning to wonder if you are just being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

So let me ask again,

Why do you have a problem with shareholders having a say in executive compensation?
In corporate finance theory preferred shareholders don't get a vote in how a company is run.

I could draw a diagram, if it would help, showing the rights and obligations of various bits of capital structure?
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      03-17-2009, 06:51 PM   #53
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My part timer get same benefits as my full timers.

You know what after thinking about it I think I finally see the light, you've been 100% right about the system. It's bullet proof just perfect. Instead of fighting any flaws I'm going to join in the party. In fact I need to buy some grocery today, just my luck food stamp just gone up 100, can easily get it for 50 yeah for me! Oh next time you're in vail you should invite me.
So let me get this straight. You WILLFULLY decide to hire part-timers KNOWING that they will end up getting gov't housing, food assistance, and gov't health care. Knowing that there is no possible way for them to make enough money working for you part-time to pay for all of this themselves.

Who decided to hire these people part-time knowing all of this? You did.

You hired these people knowing exactly what was going to happen because hiring them part-time makes YOUR business profitable. YOU are the one who ultimately benefits from your business plan of hiring part-time workers -- even though you know they will have to take gov't assistance in order to work for you part-time.

You use these part-time workers to make your business profitable, which places you in what you have previously implied is the top 2% of US wage earners.

It is YOU who has become a top 2% earner due to the system that is in place. YOU take a share of your profits out of the system, just like your workers. And you do it willingly and with full knowledge of how the system you disdain works.

Wait a minute. Everything is coming clear now. You really are a whiny bitch just like I first thought. Here you are benefiting from having a pool of part-time workers that could only exist with gov't subsidies, and who do you want us all to blame? The POOR people who work the jobs YOU offer in order to make YOU the big money???

Don't fool yourself. You've already joined the party.

Last edited by Nixon; 03-17-2009 at 07:19 PM.
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      03-17-2009, 07:36 PM   #54
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No I hire these part timers cause they came me to asking for a job. Before you make crazy assumptions please consider the fact there are obsticles people tackle everyday besides work. My two part timer initially only wanted a part time job, was my intention knowing all bs you mention the reason why I hired them? Of course not, I offered full time oportunity but they refuse cause it effects their welfare. Am I going to throw good workers away cause I knew this? No, but am I trying to help the system? No, my intention if you work hard for me I will in return reward you back.
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