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      08-18-2006, 08:51 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
An open mind is quickly filled with crap, lies and liberal drivel. I'm not directing this statement at you personally, its just how I see things. I'm a conserative Republican (big surprise ) on most but not all issues and I've yet to see any compelling reason why I should change my views. It may surprise you to know that I also have close personal friends who happen to be liberal Democrats (God have mercy on their poor misguided souls ).
I am sure God will forgive them their sins
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      08-18-2006, 09:03 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darter1979
I highly doubt that. If you really know the Constitution, you will see that there are no guarentees [sic] written to protect a person's privacy. The closest clause you can infer is the 4th Amend, which protects against "unreasonable searches and seizures". Wiretapping is hardly a search or seizure activity, rather it's a survaillance [sic] activity and the Constitution does not prohibits that.

It is via Common Law, not Constutional [sic] Law that the privacy laws in this country are based, and are used to prevent evidence obtained from unwarrented survaillance [sic] from being used in prosecutions. Since Common Law rulings are largely derive from past precedences [sic] as well as unique circumstances of each case, privacy laws are no where near as indispensable as real Consitutional [sic] laws. Since in this case, the federal government is using wiretapping for crime prevention, rather than prosecution, and the target of survaillance [sic] are foreign nationals, I see no legal basis for this ruling. I expect the higher courts to quickly overturn this left-wing activist judge's decision.
See Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967).

In Katz, the Court held that the "Fourth Amendment governs not only the seizure of tangible items, but extends as well to the recording of oral statements, over-heard without any "technical trespass under . . . local property law." Silverman v. United States, 365 U.S. 505, 511.

The Court further addressed the issue of whether in national security cases electronic surveillance upon the authorization of the President or the Attorney General could be permissible without prior judicial approval.

The Executive Branch argued that it maintained the power to wiretap and to ''bug'' in two types of national security situations: (1) domestic subversion and (2) against foreign intelligence operations. The Executive Branch based its authority on a theory of ''inherent'' presidential power and then fell back in the Supreme Court to the argument that such surveillance was a ''reasonable'' search and seizure and therefore valid under the Fourth Amendment.

The United States Supreme Court held that compliance with the warrant provisions of the Fourth Amendment was required in domestic subversive investigations, and that the warrant clause determined whether a search was reasonable. With few exceptions, only those searches conducted pursuant to warrants were reasonable.

The Court held that the Government's duty to preserve the national security did not override the guarantee that before government could invade the privacy of its citizens it must present to a neutral magistrate evidence sufficient to support issuance of a warrant authorizing that invasion of privacy.

The Court held that this protection was even more needed in ''national security cases'' than in cases of ''ordinary'' crime, because the tendency of government is to regard opponents of its policies as a threat and hence to tread in areas protected by the First Amendment as well as by the Fourth.

Following Katz, Congress enacted Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 authorizing federal and state officers to seek warrants for electronic surveillance to investigate violations of prescribed classes of criminal legislation.
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      08-18-2006, 10:42 AM   #47
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For all of you who are worried about the NSA telling your wife that you are banging your secretary quit your wining. Even the moron judge who ruled in this case agreed the Terrorist Surveillance Program only effects calls where at least 1 party is a member of Al Qaeda and 1 part of the conversation is taking place oversees. Unless you are talking to a member of Al Qaeda oversees you don't have anything to worry about. So why are all of you so worried about freedoms for Al Qaeda members who don't even want freedom themselves.
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      08-18-2006, 10:52 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
For all of you who are worried about the NSA telling your wife that you are banging your secretary quit your wining. Even the moron judge who ruled in this case agreed the Terrorist Surveillance Program only effects calls where at least 1 party is a member of Al Qaeda and 1 part of the conversation is taking place oversees. Unless you are talking to a member of Al Qaeda oversees you don't have anything to worry about. So why are all of you so worried about freedoms for Al Qaeda members who don't even want freedom themselves.
How do they know one of the parties is a member of Al Qaeda? It's not like the publish a membership list with every ones name and address is it?

If they have any real evidence or even suspician - couldn't they get a warrant to monitor the calls?
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      08-18-2006, 11:00 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
How do they know one of the parties is a member of Al Qaeda? It's not like the publish a membership list with every ones name and address is it?

If they have any real evidence or even suspician - couldn't they get a warrant to monitor the calls?
You cant get a warrant for something you don't know is coming. A warrant is the proper way to go if you know what number the person is calling from. If a call comes in that is intercepted from a previously unknown line that reveals a terrorist plot, a warrant can only be obtained beforehand if the NSA had some sort of psychic ability.
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      08-18-2006, 11:06 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
You cant get a warrant for something you don't know is coming. A warrant is the proper way to go if you know what number the person is calling from. If a call comes in that is intercepted from a previously unknown line that reveals a terrorist plot, a warrant can only be obtained beforehand if the NSA had some sort of psychic ability.
If the NSA suspect someone of having links to al qaeda then they would presumably apply for a warrant to monitor their calls.

If a call came in to an entirely unknown person then unless they monitored everyones phone calls they wouldn't intercept it anyway.

So all that would be necessary is to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the judge issuing the warrant that their suspicions were justified. It's just a check and balance surely so that the NSA don't have absolute free reign to monitor peoples calls without reason.

It's not like getting a warrant would take a long time is it. In the UK a warrant can be got 24 hours a day within a matter of minutes (if you are prepared to wake up a magistrate or judge).
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      08-18-2006, 11:29 AM   #51
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This is just stupid, you dont need to worry about the gov't listening in to your phone lines unless you are a terrorist.

If you want this country to be safer whats wrong with tapping into a terrorists phone line?
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      08-18-2006, 02:10 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni
This is just stupid, you dont need to worry about the gov't listening in to your phone lines unless you are a terrorist.

If you want this country to be safer whats wrong with tapping into a terrorists phone line?
That isn't true at all.

A substantial percentage of my client calls do not originate from inside of the United States, and therefore my conversations, which ironically are protected by Attorney-Client privilege, are subject to monitoring by the Executive Branch’s cronies.

I operate under the assumption that they are being monitored, because of the current administration's patterns of practice.
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      08-19-2006, 12:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSilver
That isn't true at all.

A substantial percentage of my client calls do not originate from inside of the United States, and therefore my conversations, which ironically are protected by Attorney-Client privilege, are subject to monitoring by the Executive Branch’s cronies.

I operate under the assumption that they are being monitored, because of the current administration's patterns of practice.
Its funny how the program was started under the Clinton administration, and approved by one of your aparent heros Jamie Garelick.
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      08-19-2006, 01:07 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
If the NSA suspect someone of having links to al qaeda then they would presumably apply for a warrant to monitor their calls.

If a call came in to an entirely unknown person then unless they monitored everyones phone calls they wouldn't intercept it anyway.

So all that would be necessary is to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the judge issuing the warrant that their suspicions were justified. It's just a check and balance surely so that the NSA don't have absolute free reign to monitor peoples calls without reason.

It's not like getting a warrant would take a long time is it. In the UK a warrant can be got 24 hours a day within a matter of minutes (if you are prepared to wake up a magistrate or judge).
It takes a lot more than a few minutes to obtain a warrant here. Sometimes you have to wait hours for lazy judges to just to get back from "lunch". Other times you may have to drive hours to find a judge when it is off hours. The program is a computer which monitors all calls and looks for certain "buzz" words. When a "buzz" word is detected the system alerts a human intelligence analyst who the monitors the conversation. I.E. the computer picks up a conversation in which one party is oversees and says "bomb the Brooklyn Bridge". A human immediately would then be forwarded that conversation for analysis to determine if it is serious and action needs to be taken. Could you imagine in those few seconds to type up a warrant (which must contain sufficiently specific information about the item you want to search or seize) find a judge, swear in front of the judge, have the judge review your warrant, and have the judge sign the warrant. Remember when it comes to search warrants in the U.S., the only information the judge can consider is what is on the warrant. You cannot call the judge and tell him what is going on, it has to be in writing contained in the warrant (four corners rule). I don't think you understand how this works. Real life is not this utopia you think it is.
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      08-19-2006, 03:15 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Its funny how the program was started under the Clinton administration, and approved by one of your aparent heros Jamie Garelick.
Whatever.

I'm a republican.

I'm also the son of a Republican.

The only Republican candidate my family has not voted for is George W. Bush (2nd Election). I voted for the libertarian.
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      08-23-2006, 04:38 PM   #56
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Surprise surprise! It seems the judge that ruled in this case may have some conflict of interest issues and should have recused herself. According to the New York Times (hardly a conservative publication), Judge Anna "Diggs" Taylor is on the board of trustees for the Community Foundation for Southeastern Michigan. While she was on the board of trustees, this organization provided at least 4 grants totaling $125,000 to the Michigan ACLU who brought this case before Judge Taylor.
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      08-23-2006, 04:52 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Surprise surprise! It seems the judge that ruled in this case may have some conflict of interest issues and should have recused herself. According to the New York Times (hardly a conservative publication), Judge Anna "Diggs" Taylor is on the board of trustees for the Community Foundation for Southeastern Michigan. While she was on the board of trustees, this organization provided at least 4 grants totaling $125,000 to the Michigan ACLU who brought this case before Judge Taylor.
How shocking! Imagine that!

You go Judge Taylor!
 
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      08-23-2006, 05:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Yea the United States is really a right wing totalitarian police state. Have you ever even been here?

Do you hold a passport?
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      08-23-2006, 05:28 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Surprise surprise! It seems the judge that ruled in this case may have some conflict of interest issues and should have recused herself. According to the New York Times (hardly a conservative publication), Judge Anna "Diggs" Taylor is on the board of trustees for the Community Foundation for Southeastern Michigan. While she was on the board of trustees, this organization provided at least 4 grants totaling $125,000 to the Michigan ACLU who brought this case before Judge Taylor.
That aint smart.

She is an idiot for keeping the case.
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      08-23-2006, 05:39 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
Do you hold a passport?
Last time I checked I live here. What does my passport have to do with anything?
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      08-23-2006, 06:47 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Last time I checked I live here. What does my passport have to do with anything?
Thought so
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      08-23-2006, 08:37 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper
Thought so
I admit, I'm confused. I thought we were in the USA discussing political matters here.
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      08-23-2006, 08:57 PM   #63
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Do you hold a passport?
whippersnapper,

I honestly don't know why you ask that and would like to know.

It looks like something went over my head this time.
 
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      10-04-2006, 07:04 PM   #64
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As I predicted the judge was overturned.

CHICAGO (Reuters) - The government can continue to use its warrantless domestic wiretap program pending the Justice Department's appeal of a federal judge's ruling outlawing the program, an Appeals Court in Cincinnati ruled on Wednesday.

The ruling overturned District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor's decision last week to deny a lengthy stay in the case, which is expected to end up with the Supreme Court.

In August, Taylor ruled that the National Security Agency's five-year-old surveillance program, implemented as part of the government's war on terrorism, violates the civil rights of Americans.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed the suit in March on behalf of scholars, attorneys, journalists and non-profit groups that regularly communicate with people in the Middle East.



© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.
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      10-04-2006, 07:15 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSilver
Question: Where does the Constitution grant protection to non-citizens who made calls from a foreign nation?

Short Answer:

In the United States people have a reasonable expectation to privacy that is protected by the 4th Amendment. The 4th explicitly provides for:

"the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

So if the Government wants to tap phones, there is a legal mechanism for them to do so... it is called a warrant.

Otherwise any information they derive from an unlawful search and seizure will be fruit of the poisonous tree and will be inadmissible at trial as per the Exclusionary Rule.

I don't have a problem with the U.S. government wiretapping calls that are taking place outside of our borders. It is called spying.

But if they want to tap calls originating from inside the United States, they had better damn well have a warrant to do so.

>.<
MrSilver,

What the F is wrong with you???
Everything Bush and co. do is correct. You don't need the proof and approval for it. If O'Reiley supports it, it must be correct. And even if the constitution says it -- it is wrong because W did not write it.

And if you don't like it you should be disbarred, and you're no a patriot.

Shame on you.

Ah, what is next -- he will change the rule that once elected -- stays in the office till death...

Horrible future ahead of us...
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