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      09-11-2006, 07:41 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Casuist
pawarrant:

I agree with you that the war on terror trumps everything. And that's why it makes me very angry that America's borders are wide open. Did you know that along one 5 mile stretch in Arizona alone more that 1,500 illegals enter this country every night?

Why is our President not doing anything about this?
Because he is a politician. All politicians suck on this issue save a few house Republicans.
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      09-11-2006, 09:30 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Because he is a politician. All politicians suck on this issue save a few house Republicans.
Well, that's the simplified version. Actually, the reason why our leaders havenít, and wonít ever, do anything about the Illegal Immigration Invasion is the mega-wealthy of the world ultimately control what our leaders do. The poor, uneducated and exploited Illegal Immigrants are a boon to businesses both big and small. The actual cost of these Illegal Immigrants is paid for primarily by state and local taxes. The feds don't pay shit. It's the helpless local taxpayers that have to pick up the tab. I say helpless because no matter who we vote for, our country will ultimately continue to be sold out. Nothing short of a full scale revolution would come close to stopping this, and that would ultimately fail. Itís sickening, is what it is. It makes me sick, it makes me sad and it makes me angry.
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      09-11-2006, 09:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSilver
We need to get Mel Gibson into this debate.
MrSilver, is that your new ride in your sig? That is freaking sweet! Personally, I think it would look even better with 162s! I'm not particularly fond of those wheels.
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      09-11-2006, 09:41 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Casuist
Well, that's the simplified version. Actually, the reason why our leaders havenít, and wonít ever, do anything about the Illegal Immigration Invasion is the mega-wealthy of the world ultimately control what our leaders do. The poor, uneducated and exploited Illegal Immigrants are a boon to businesses both big and small. The actual cost of these Illegal Immigrants is paid for primarily by state and local taxes. The feds don't pay shit. It's the helpless local taxpayers that have to pick up the tab. I say helpless because no matter who we vote for, our country will ultimately continue to be sold out. Nothing short of a full scale revolution would come close to stopping this, and that would ultimately fail. Itís sickening, is what it is. It makes me sick, it makes me sad and it makes me angry.
That's the reason for the Republicans. The reason for the Dems is it is another minority group they can make into victim status to ensure they vote Dem legally or as yet another source of fraudulent voters.
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      09-11-2006, 09:47 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
That's the reason for the Republicans. The reason for the Dems is it is another minority group they can make into victim status to ensure they vote Dem legally or as yet another source of fraudulent voters.
Okay, I think it would more correctly be called "their excuse."

Illegal Aliens=

Profit for Republicans

Votes for Democrats

Either way, we are screwed.
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      09-11-2006, 10:07 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Casuist
Okay, I think it would more correctly be called "their excuse."

Illegal Aliens=

Profit for Republicans

Votes for Democrats

Either way, we are screwed.
Yes we are. What politician is ever going to do anything about it? maybe you can respond about this in another thread since this is about the Path to 9-11 which I am going to watch the end of right now. I will comment on the series when I'm finished. I DVRed it because I've been watching the games.
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      09-12-2006, 07:18 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Yes we are. What politician is ever going to do anything about it? maybe you can respond about this in another thread since this is about the Path to 9-11 which I am going to watch the end of right now. I will comment on the series when I'm finished. I DVRed it because I've been watching the games.
So I watched the end yesterday, and here are my impressions:

1) Incredibly well-made (from a cinematic standpoint). I thought I would have gotten at least a little bored during the over four total hours of the mini-series, but I wasn't.

2) It made me angry at those who did this to the US, as if I were watching it all over again.

3) The politics of the movie were not as evident to me as I thought they would be. I had been gearing up to watch this movie from the standpoint of a person who would need to watch it for any and all attempts at historical inaccuracies, mainly with respect to the Democrats portrayed. In reality, it showed, to me at least, that the biggest issue is that the government is its own worst enemy. Large bureaucracies are unable to function together, and regardless of whether a Democrat or Republican is in power, if this is how the various agencies really function together, then I can see how what happened, happened.

I also realize now that I should stick to debating social/economic policy and politics -- foreign policy debates are beyond me

BTW, who exactly was that Yemeni ambassador? Of all the people in the movie I got mad at (terrorists excluded), she was probably the one who angered me the most!
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      09-12-2006, 11:08 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
I also realize now that I should stick to debating social/economic policy and politics -- foreign policy debates are beyond me
Good idea, it's like you were bringing a knife to a gun fight! LOL I'm just kidding. You shouldn't stop debating. It is how you learn. You can also join some of our spirited discussions in the Americaoutloud.org forum which was started by an E90post member. Check it out, and feel free to continue the discussions here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
BTW, who exactly was that Yemeni ambassador? Of all the people in the movie I got mad at (terrorists excluded), she was probably the one who angered me the most!
Barbara Bodine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Bodine
Unfortunately most people don't realize that the intelligence community, the military, and especially law enforcement are hindered by these kind of people every day. People worried more about their careers than the safety of others. It is sad the people that really care about saving lives are the front line people that have to risk loosing their jobs, getting sued, and even prosecuted for doing the right thing which may differ from some bureaucrat's political agenda.

BTW did anyone else get the impression she was on coke during that scene in the movie?
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      09-12-2006, 12:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Good idea, it's like you were bringing a knife to a gun fight! LOL I'm just kidding. You shouldn't stop debating. It is how you learn. You can also join some of our spirited discussions in the Americaoutloud.org forum which was started by an E90post member. Check it out, and feel free to continue the discussions here.


Barbara Bodine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Bodine
Unfortunately most people don't realize that the intelligence community, the military, and especially law enforcement are hindered by these kind of people every day. People worried more about their careers than the safety of others. It is sad the people that really care about saving lives are the front line people that have to risk loosing their jobs, getting sued, and even prosecuted for doing the right thing which may differ from some bureaucrat's political agenda.

BTW did anyone else get the impression she was on coke during that scene in the movie?
I took a look over at that forum -- I think I may have to join.

Though I did notice a couple of comments you wrote about me several days ago

I'll post something more specific to you over there :mad:
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      09-12-2006, 01:23 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Though I did notice a couple of comments you wrote about me several days ago
We tried to egg you on. Its nice having some peopel to abuse.
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      09-12-2006, 02:28 PM   #55
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My thoughts on the show:

Overall, I thought it was well done and pretty accurate (considering it was a movie condensed into 5 hours) based on what I know. Like I said earlier, the movie showed how our bureaucracy hindered the front line people who are fighting the war on terror. I do not think anyone should be blamed other than the terrorists for the attacks. Hind site is always 20/20. I will discuss some failures I thought were important that helped lead to 9-11 that were shown in the movie.

1. The policy that prohibited the US government from hiring or operating in the filed with criminals. This failed policy was enacted and enforced by the Clinton administration. Clinton had disdain towards the intelligence community especially the CIA. He cut many intelligence assets and never even met with his first CIA Director James Woolsey aside from when they were first introduced. This policy directly prohibited the CIA and other intelligence agencies from gathering needed intelligence. In this business dealing with terrorists you are inevitably going to come across some less than desirable characters that can provide valuable information. I believe this policy has been rescinded.

2. The Administration considered the terrorist attacks (first WTC, embassy bombings, USS Cole ect.) were handled as a law enforcement matter. The enemy was fighting a war against us and we were treating it as a few criminal acts. This changed after 9-11 when we finally started to wage war against the terrorists. Even today their are still some people who think the terrorists should be treated as criminals instead of enemies waging war on us.

3. There was poor leadership in our government. No one wanted to step to the plate and make a decision. Following the Waco incident where Janet Reno was left hanging out to dry by the administration, everyone was afraid to make a difficult decision. In one scene Sandy Burger would not authorize the CIA to take out Bin Laden. He told Tennant if he wants to do it he is on his own. This is not how the chain of command should work.

4. bureaucrats worried more about career advancement than doing what is right. This was highlighted in the scene where the US ambassador to Yemen Barbara Bodine put a haut to the investigation conducted by the FBI into the USS Cole bombing. Bodine was worried more about offending the Yemenis than protecting American lives. This brings me to my next point.

5. "Political Correctness rules the day." The people who are keeping us safe by fighting the war on terror are hindered by political correctness. Everyone is so worried about offending people that they can not effectively keep us safe when they are worried about getting sued by organizations such as the ACLU. Political correctness still rules the day, though since 9-11 there are a lot of people who realize our safety is more important than trying not to offend someone.

6. The wall in put in place during the Clinton administration that prohibited the CIA and military intelligence from sharing information with our domestic law enforcement agencies such as the FBI. This was a failed policy that prohibited investigators from putting the pieces together from collected intelligence. This was shown as a reason the 9-11 terrorists were not located and identified when they were in the US preceding the attacks. This wall was removed by the current administration.

7. Pre Patriot Act difficulties in gathering evidence. This was illustrated in the film mostly during the scene where INS and FBI took possession of Moussaoui's laptop prior to the 9-11 attack. Later on we found details of the attacks on that laptop. This problem has been solved with the Patriot Act.
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      09-13-2006, 03:22 PM   #56
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Related to the film somewhat, several scenes referenced the drone that some wanted to outfit with missiles. The Air Force announced the new one today:

PRESS RELEASE -- Secretary of the Air Force, Office of Public Affairs

Release No. 040906
September 12,2006

"Reaper" moniker given to MQ-9 unmanned aerial vehicle


WASHINGTON - The Air Force Chief of Staff announced "Reaper" has been chosen as the name for the MQ-9 unmanned aerial vehicle.

The Air Force is the Department of Defense's executive agent for designating and naming military aerospace vehicles.

In the case of the Reaper, Gen. T. Michael Moseley made the final decision after an extensive nomination and review process, coordinated with the other Services.

"The name Reaper is one of the suggestions that came from our Airmen in the field. It's fitting as it captures the lethal nature of this new weapon system," Moseley said.

The MQ-9 Reaper is the Air Force's first hunter-killer UAV. It's larger and more powerful than the MQ-1 Predator and is designed to go after time-sensitive targets with persistence and precision, and destroy or disable those targets with 500-lb. bombs and Hellfire Missiles.

"The Reaper represents a significant evolution in UAV technology and employment. We've moved from using UAVs primarily in intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance roles before Operation IRAQI FREEDOM, to a true hunter-killer role with the Reaper," he said.

Moseley stressed that the key advantage is not keeping manned aircraft and pilots out of harm's way, but the persistence UAVs can inherently provide. The Reaper can stay airborne for up to 14 hours fully loaded.

A 900 hp turbo-prop engine, compared to the 119 hp Predator engine, powers the aircraft. It has a 64-foot wingspan and carries more than 15 times the ordnance of the Predator, flying almost three times the Predator's cruise speed.

The Air Force has seven MQ-9 Reapers in its inventory, with a full-rate production decision expected in 2009.

The Air Force is the global leader in UAV innovation, Moseley said.
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