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      01-06-2009, 10:04 PM   #23
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I understand all the arguments. If there were only a simple way to weed out the sociopaths, the immature, and the just plain moronic without risking other peoples lives.

Don't forget, driving is a privilege, not a birthright.

I see nothing wrong with a graduated power rating and restricted driving hours. Teenage drivers should not be behind the wheel of 250 - 350 hp cars between midnight and 8 am. Nothing good can happen.

As a driver proves to society that he or she is maturing, and gaining experience with a safe, accident free and speeding ticket free record - then ramp it up a little.

Lester's Proposed New Worldwide Driving Laws:

Level 1
Ages 16 through 19 - 125 hp max, 4 cyl. normally aspirated engine, driving curfew midnight - 8 am (unless driving early to school or work - or medical emergency or with an adult over 30 years old)

Level 2
Ages 20 - 25 (accident and speeding ticket free - otherwise back to Level 1) - 200 hp max, 6 cyl. normally aspirated engine. No curfew midnight - 8 am, but no passengers in the vehicle unless over 30 years old.

Level 3
Ages 30 - 35 (accident and speeding ticket free - otherwise back to Level 2) - 300 hp max, 8 cyl. allowed, turbocharged engines allowed.

Level 4
Ages 35+ - no restrictions - but accidents or speeding tickets put you back at level 3.

DUI - lose your license for 6 months, and take a driver education course. Enter back at your age group level, max Level 3.

Every 2 years - everyone must take and pass a driver safety course. Every 5 years, everyone must take a road test and pass basic physical (hearing, eyesight, ability to drive a car physically).

Safe driving everyone!!!!


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      01-06-2009, 10:05 PM   #24
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Lester good luck getting that passed! :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by 135i_ View Post
No 19 year old is a great driver, I don't care what the circumstances are.
Michael Schumacher HAD to be a GREAT driver when he was 19. Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso, etc. etc.

You left yourself WAY to open for that one.
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      01-06-2009, 10:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester View Post
I understand all the arguments. If there were only a simple way to weed out the sociopaths, the immature, and the just plain moronic without risking other peoples lives.

Don't forget, driving is a privilege, not a birthright.

I see nothing wrong with a graduated power rating and restricted driving hours. Teenage drivers should not be behind the wheel of 250 - 350 hp cars between midnight and 8 am. Nothing good can happen.

As a driver proves to society that he or she is maturing, and gaining experience with a safe, accident free and speeding ticket free record - then ramp it up a little.

Lester's Proposed New Worldwide Driving Laws:

Level 1
Ages 16 through 19 - 125 hp max, 4 cyl. normally aspirated engine, driving curfew midnight - 8 am (unless driving early to school or work - or medical emergency or with an adult over 30 years old)

Level 2
Ages 20 - 25 (accident and speeding ticket free - otherwise back to Level 1) - 200 hp max, 6 cyl. normally aspirated engine. No curfew midnight - 8 am, but no passengers in the vehicle unless over 30 years old.

Level 3
Ages 30 - 35 (accident and speeding ticket free - otherwise back to Level 2) - 300 hp max, 8 cyl. allowed, turbocharged engines allowed.

Level 4
Ages 35+ - no restrictions - but accidents or speeding tickets put you back at level 3.

DUI - lose your license for 6 months, and take a driver education course. Enter back at your age group level, max Level 3.

Every 2 years - everyone must take and pass a driver safety course. Every 5 years, everyone must take a road test and pass basic physical (hearing, eyesight, ability to drive a car physically).

Safe driving everyone!!!!




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      01-06-2009, 11:09 PM   #26
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i know my limitations, and i know my cars limitation iv learned the hard way and thats why now i see myself as a good driver. At 16 i was a terrible driver and though i was untouchable, until i was caught and learned my lesson and now im ticket and accident free for almost 3 years knock on wood.
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      01-06-2009, 11:20 PM   #27
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Lester I dont think you even realize that the majority of 1 Series owners are 21-25 BMW would laugh in your face if you tried to put ur dumb law to work. And I think you have a lot to live still if you think youngsters are the worst drivers... not to long ago we had over 400 accidents in day where I live and guess what more then half of the drivers were WELL over 35... you try to make it seem as if you old people are such perfect little drivers when in reality yall aren't, yall are just as bad sometimes worst. And just because you dont have any tickets on your record or no accidents doesn't neccessarily mean your a great driver at all.. thats my opinion. And if you think a basic physical test should be required that wont work either bc that would mean 70yr+ old people wouldnt be allowed to drive bc theyre physical capabilties wont be near as good as someone 21.. and defensive driving is a waste of money and time, they dont even show you how to drive in rain which is when most people have accidents. Plus no one even knows what a yield sign means especially old people who think they can get away with everything. And I think having a DUI is WORST than anything for a driver you shouldnt even be able to get your license back for a LONG time to teach you a lesson, not some 6 months and some driving course, driving course doesnt teach you how to drive drunk or how to tell yourself not to get in a car inoxicated.. thats self decision.
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      01-07-2009, 08:32 AM   #28
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TT - thanks for your input. Yes there are bad drivers at every age. I totally agree. That is why better driver training, laws with teeth, and driving tests and exams that truly test a drivers capabilites are going to be necessary if we ever want to clean up the roads.

It is quite easy for all of us to see that at least 10 - 20% of drivers currently on the roads today simply have no business being there. Another 10 - 20% are in desperate need of a 'slap on the back of the head' wake up call. Street racers should be grounded, repeat offenders jailed.

And my personal belief is that some sort of graduated system should be in place, like it is for flying. You can't just jump into a jumbo jet - you have to have experience on smaller planes first.
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      01-07-2009, 11:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_TT View Post
Lester I dont think you even realize that the majority of 1 Series owners are 21-25 BMW would laugh in your face if you tried to put ur dumb law to work. And I think you have a lot to live still if you think youngsters are the worst drivers... not to long ago we had over 400 accidents in day where I live and guess what more then half of the drivers were WELL over 35... you try to make it seem as if you old people are such perfect little drivers when in reality yall aren't, yall are just as bad sometimes worst. And just because you dont have any tickets on your record or no accidents doesn't neccessarily mean your a great driver at all.. thats my opinion. And if you think a basic physical test should be required that wont work either bc that would mean 70yr+ old people wouldnt be allowed to drive bc theyre physical capabilties wont be near as good as someone 21.. and defensive driving is a waste of money and time, they dont even show you how to drive in rain which is when most people have accidents. Plus no one even knows what a yield sign means especially old people who think they can get away with everything. And I think having a DUI is WORST than anything for a driver you shouldnt even be able to get your license back for a LONG time to teach you a lesson, not some 6 months and some driving course, driving course doesnt teach you how to drive drunk or how to tell yourself not to get in a car inoxicated.. thats self decision.

Don't get carried away. What makes you think the average age of any luxury brand auto is less than 30? The demographc info for 1addicts trends young because it's a internet group for enthusiasts. The reality of total one sales includes an awful lot of middleaged folks.
At any rate, opinions about driving abilities are just that. The truth can be better seen in insurance rates. Those aren't based on opinions, they're based on the data relating to who actually has accidents and what are they costing. It should surprise no one that young males are the most expensive to insure because their on-going actions make them the biggest risk.
I woul love to see tougher licensing laws, but it will never happen because too many people think that driving is a right.
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      01-07-2009, 12:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
...The reality of total one sales includes an awful lot of middleaged folks....
Damnit, stop reminding me. If the average adult male lives to 72, then I am exactly middle-aged, just turned 36.
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      01-07-2009, 01:04 PM   #31
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Telling a 25 year old they can't drive a V8 when that same person could be the commander of an M1 tank is absurd.
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      01-07-2009, 01:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
Telling a 25 year old they can't drive a V8 when that same person could be the commander of an M1 tank is absurd.
BINGO!!!!! Not to mention you could fly an apache at 18!!!(probably 19 by the time you got through the program)

Lester, you can make that law in Canada if you like, but keep it north of your border because I don't think the people of the states have any interest in it.

Once again, more personal responsibility would require less laws.

While we are at it, why don't we ban motorcycles, most of them are much faster than even medium performance vehicles and they aren't very survivable. Why don't we make the speed limit 35 or 40mph?
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      01-07-2009, 01:45 PM   #33
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While we are at it, why don't we ban motorcycles, most of them are much faster than even medium performance vehicles and they aren't very survivable. Why don't we make the speed limit 35 or 40mph?[/quote]

We have some good ideas and lots of stupid people. Unfortunately, our reality occurs somewhere in between.

[BTW - Hear how the armed forces are trying to push much more intensive motorcycle training on members who buy bikes? It turns out they're been suffering a huge rate of serious accidents. What can they do?]
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      01-07-2009, 02:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
While we are at it, why don't we ban motorcycles, most of them are much faster than even medium performance vehicles and they aren't very survivable. Why don't we make the speed limit 35 or 40mph?
We have some good ideas and lots of stupid people. Unfortunately, our reality occurs somewhere in between.

[BTW - Hear how the armed forces are trying to push much more intensive motorcycle training on members who buy bikes? It turns out they're been suffering a huge rate of serious accidents. What can they do?][/quote]

Yeah, I wasn't actually suggesting that, not sure if you were catching on to my sarcasm.

As for the military training about motorcycles, it actually prevented me from even getting one because not only do they have extensive training, there are a lot of rules about what you have to wear for protection and you have to get them inspected all the time. Basically, it became more hassle than I felt it was worth.
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      01-07-2009, 02:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
I can definitively say that even though I took HP Driving instruction as a teen, I thought I was the cat's ass as a driver. I look back, and I was an idiot, and certainly am not a shadow of the driver I am today. Heck, I still am an idiot, but I still take instruction, and am still learning. Btw, I'm an instructor myself, but know my limitation a LOT more. When you're 19 (or 21, for that matter), the "limitations meter" doesn't register too well. Now, you may think that your meter is working fine, just as I did, but FF 25 yrs, and look back. Guarantee that you'll agree.

Not trying to be an "old bastard talking down to kids", but just sharing what any of the older drivers here would say.

I agree with Larry 100%.

I had reasonably fast cars when I was 18-24, and I sit back today thinking that I'm damn lucky I lived through it. I had friends who didn't, and the ones who did all say the same thing I do.

Young men don't make rational decisions under certain circumstances. It's wired into our brains from the days of the cavemen, and no matter what we say at that age, we're prone to taking risks.

How many of you have seen the story of the kid that got killed in the M5 on the private runway in FL? He was on the M5 forum DAYS before the incident telling everyone what a responsible driver he was, and how much he respected the car....right before he drove it off the end of a flight line at 150MPH.
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      01-07-2009, 02:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
As for the military training about motorcycles, it actually prevented me from even getting one because not only do they have extensive training, there are a lot of rules about what you have to wear for protection and you have to get them inspected all the time. Basically, it became more hassle than I felt it was worth.

Not to metion you look like a dork with the damn reflective vests on.
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      01-07-2009, 04:17 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I agree with Larry 100%.

I had reasonably fast cars when I was 18-24, and I sit back today thinking that I'm damn lucky I lived through it. I had friends who didn't, and the ones who did all say the same thing I do.

Young men don't make rational decisions under certain circumstances. It's wired into our brains from the days of the cavemen, and no matter what we say at that age, we're prone to taking risks.

How many of you have seen the story of the kid that got killed in the M5 on the private runway in FL? He was on the M5 forum DAYS before the incident telling everyone what a responsible driver he was, and how much he respected the car....right before he drove it off the end of a flight line at 150MPH.
M5? Holy crap! And I thought having a 2000 Civic with 175hp and 2000lbs of weight was fun. Too bad the kid died. I drove my best friends fathers M6 with his dad in it. Thing was a blast, but won't own one for another 5 years. :biggrin:
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saw you comment and i'd lay on my bed and cry, then i put some Yulio Iglesias music, no more problem.


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      01-07-2009, 11:09 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Heinzftw View Post
M5? Holy crap! And I thought having a 2000 Civic with 175hp and 2000lbs of weight was fun. Too bad the kid died. I drove my best friends fathers M6 with his dad in it. Thing was a blast, but won't own one for another 5 years. :biggrin:

Here's the thread. I think it fits pretty well in this discussion.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ts-m-mode.html


Quote:
Alright guys Im new here and I have a question....as I am driving in m mode with the car set in p500 sport and everything set to max, as I shift with the paddle shifters it sounds like the transmission is banging into gear,(like there is a thud that comes from the trunk when I upshift.....) could this be due to the way Im shifting or is this normal....and if so is there any trick to working the shift

Let me say I am beginner when it comes to high performance cars as I am only 18 so take it easy on me.
Quote:
M5froth I completley understand where you are coming from assuming that I am irresponsible..that is definetly understandable. I do sometimes make bad decisions but I am young and I do drive safe and I will not endanger the lives of others..and I hope you are not under the impression that I am the one to brag, I have never been that way and never will. Plus I will have pictures up asap with me in the pictures. I have no reason to lie buddy.
Some of the guys didn't believe he was for real.

Quote:
Thanks guys, dont get me wrong I never said I didnt respect your wisdom....thanks for the welcome and I am looking foward to getting to know you guys better..

Josh

.....and I plan to have all the pics up tommorow
Quote:
http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/s...8UDQ5U01.shtml

Hey, AmericanM5 lives in Florida, is 18, drives a grey M5, signed one of the posts (#28 in this thread) above "Josh" ..OMG.. -- I hope this is not him.

Quote:
The FHP identified the five friends as Jacob James Casey, 19, 4245 SW 20th Ave., Ocala; James Devon Hime, 19, 10660 NE 47th Ave., Ocala; Joshua D. Ammirato, 18, of Fairfield, Dustin J. Dawe, 19, 13040 NW 80th St. Rd., Fairfield; and Isaac Rubin, 20, 45 Pecan Run Pass, Ocala.
All five were pronounced dead at the scene.
Ammirato was driving his father's gray 2008 BMW. The $80,000 car was traveling north on Runway 36, a 1.5-mile long airstrip that actor John Travolta and others regularly use.
Florida Highway Patrol Capt. Jeff Succi said said there were yaw marks at the end of the runway, indicating that the car turned sideways before launching over an embankment. It then sailed through the air about 200 feet before slamming into a large tree.
They believe it traveled over the 80- to 85-foot embankment at the end of the airstrip and struck the tree about 15 feet above the ground. The car broke into two pieces upon impact.
Three of victims were ejected. Two were partially ejected, FHP offcials said. It is not yet known whether any or all of the victims were wearing seat belts.
Just food for thought. That first post looks a lot like some of the responses we've seen here from younger members in the past.
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      01-07-2009, 11:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Here's the thread. I think it fits pretty well in this discussion.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ts-m-mode.html






Some of the guys didn't believe he was for real.







Just food for thought. That first post looks a lot like some of the responses we've seen here from younger members in the past.
dude...
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      01-07-2009, 11:35 PM   #40
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alcohol was involved, first off i do not drink, and i have friends who have been killed from drinking and driving. I know im not the best driver infact i just learned to drive a stick but i hope that i will never end up in a situation where anything remotely this bad could happen!

My prayers to those who were affected by this terrible incident.
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      01-08-2009, 12:37 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Chewyjr15 View Post
alcohol was involved, first off i do not drink, and i have friends who have been killed from drinking and driving. I know im not the best driver infact i just learned to drive a stick but i hope that i will never end up in a situation where anything remotely this bad could happen!

My prayers to those who were affected by this terrible incident.

Tests proved that the driver wasn't drinking. Some of the others were, but they had no control over the car.
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      01-08-2009, 04:56 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Tests proved that the driver wasn't drinking. Some of the others were, but they had no control over the car.
Gesh, two total blows that I have just read. I felt like I have been slapped in the face. I think of it like this.

Im 18 years old.
Was involved in a bad car crash.
Did think I was hot shit.
Thank god I only had 170hp and not 500.
For all the parents reading this. Almost all guys think they are invincible, have them learn their lesson at a very young age.
My condolences to both families.
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