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      01-07-2009, 10:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serven7 View Post
First I would like to apologize to everyone for putting out bum info on brakes earlier. I hate when people put bad info out. Im sorry there is no excuse for this.

Gary - Thank you for the correction can you direct me to a place where I cold do a little research on the F50/40 braking R&D(since I need it). Also, thank you for the great posts and pictures.

BMW-M-Mexico - I know next to nothing about Movit, Ive called and talked with them for about 45 min and they seem very knowledgeable and they say there QC is next to none but I have a hard time drooping 10k on something I know nothing about. I have been reading up on brakes to find us a CC set but I cant seem to find much so its back to the old debate Brembo or ST Ive gone back and forth about 5 times now but Im leaning towards Brembo because the hats on ST are goofy looking(I know thats not a good reason) and Brembo is Brembo but Im still doing my homework. I must say when you call ST you can hardly get them off the phone all they want to do is talk about brakes, great customer service!
Thanks Serven!! I do recall that ST had told me they were producing a CC brake kit for $16,000. Was this misinformation or are they doing that? I hear you on the Brembo´s.
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      01-07-2009, 11:10 AM   #24
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All I can say is what ST has told me and they keep telling me that they have no plans on letting a set go but what blows my mind is that they had a set at SEMA??? Why would you do that if you wernt going to sell them? Im not paying 16k for ST cc brakes, I will retrofit some Porsche calipers and rotors before I do that haha! I know its not an Audi. Im going to keep researching Movit but it will more than likely end up with Brembos on the car.
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      01-07-2009, 11:19 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by serven7 View Post
All I can say is what ST has told me and they keep telling me that they have no plans on letting a set go but what blows my mind is that they had a set at SEMA??? Why would you do that if you wernt going to sell them? Im not paying 16k for ST cc brakes, I will retrofit some Porsche calipers and rotors before I do that haha! I know its not an Audi. Im going to keep researching Movit but it will more than likely end up with Brembos on the car.
Yea totally with you. I believe Federico is looking into retrofitting the Ferrari discs to the Brembo BBK calipers, that may actually work. We will see.
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      01-07-2009, 01:57 PM   #26
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Had StopTechs on my former track car and couldn't have been happier with them. I was extremely hard on these as I used the car for tarmac rally driving, and I never had an issue. When it comes time to replace the brakes on my M3, I will probably go for the STs b/c they are great quality for the price.
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      01-07-2009, 02:57 PM   #27
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Both Brembo and ST are very similar in performance and endurance. I like the ST more for their Quick Release option which allows you to change pads without removing the caliper assembly.
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      01-07-2009, 03:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serven7 View Post
...can you direct me to a place where I cold do a little research on the F50/40 braking R&D(since I need it). Also, thank you for the great posts and pictures.
Is there a particular reason why you are interested in the braking of the Ferrari F40 and F50? The F50 is now 14 years old, and the F40 is more than 20. While we still use the "F50 style" of caliper in the High Performance program, they are generations different than the originals, and the information about those particular systems do not apply to the products as they are used today.

If you are doing researched based on the systems that are available for your M3, you will be much more interested in the NEW Monobloc calipers being used in that application.
FRONT System - Red / Slotted
REAR System - Red / Slotted
These calipers are an incredible example of Brembo's experience and ability, with technologies being drawn from their Racing division for performance and their OEM division for quality and longevity. It is truly the closest thing to a full motorsport racing caliper ever developed for the aftermarket

Brembo's R&D practices run very deep so it's very hard to decide where to start. There's specific R&D methods for individual components as well as practices for developing vehicle specific braking systems. The calipers themselves go through rigorous testing in the laboratory on various dynamometers with specialized FEA to ensure the best combination of size / weight / stiffness / elasticity / feel & response / resistance to fatigue. Discs are exposed to similar rigors to test for maximum heat capacity & temperature management, including FEA to test for stresses and flows. There are tests specifically to ensure the quality of the materials being used to create these components, as well as multiple steps along the production lines to guarantee exacting standards for quality of every item. Only after all that are these components seen onto actual test vehicles for real world evaluation.

For specific vehicle applications, Brembo has proprietary software and technology that assists in the selection of components to properly calculate bias for a given vehicle model. The same procedures that are used for developing OEM systems for Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Nissan, Ford, etc.., are used for developing aftermarket kits, plus additional criteria to improve overall performance without compromising safety or comfort. The combination of Brembo's proprietary software and extensive criteria extend way beyond the reach of basic road tests involving swapping multiple calipers to achieve a desired result. What those types of tests are not capable of predicting are the varying results you get when subtle changes are made like adding passengers, changing tire sizes and compounds, altering the vehicles ride height, or any changes to the vehicles weight distribution. Such test results are only good for that vehicle in that static condition. The goal for Brembo is to find and ideal bias based on effectively maximizing performance for a given vehicle platform. The Brembo software assists by calculating the brake torque along a curve, from initial application through threshold braking, similar to a calculating horsepower or engine torque on a dyno.

Some companies have taken advantage of Brembo's reluctance to share actual test results and procedures by claiming that they do more to ensure proper bias or maximum performance when the fact is that Brembo has more experience, reach, and overall ability than any other braking company in existence. This is not to bash other brands or talk down to anyone,... there are examples of companies who are providing good products that do perform better than stock at impressive price points, it's more to reinforce why Brembo is considered the industry leader in top level racing, as well as with nearly every top auto manufacturer, and leading aftermarket tuners.
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      01-07-2009, 04:29 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSs1Power View Post
Both Brembo and ST are very similar in performance and endurance. I like the ST more for their Quick Release option which allows you to change pads without removing the caliper assembly.
If you look at the processes for changing pads step by step with each caliper design, the quickest is an open top caliper with no bridge. The added step to removing the bridge on the Stoptech caliper is equal to the added step of removing the 2 bolts that secure the Brembo monobloc caliper.

The idea of quicker pad changes was not a factor in designing that caliper because the goal was to provide monobloc technology with added weight savings and incredible stiffness.

It's not like removing an OEM style caliper and then fumbling around trying to get pads out, spread open the pistons, place pads back in and then realign everything. It's still an opposed piston caliper and very simply and quick for pad changes. I'd estimate less than 10 min per side, once the car is off the ground and the wheels are off.
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      01-07-2009, 08:44 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_C View Post
If you look at the processes for changing pads step by step with each caliper design, the quickest is an open top caliper with no bridge. The added step to removing the bridge on the Stoptech caliper is equal to the added step of removing the 2 bolts that secure the Brembo monobloc caliper.

The idea of quicker pad changes was not a factor in designing that caliper because the goal was to provide monobloc technology with added weight savings and incredible stiffness.

It's not like removing an OEM style caliper and then fumbling around trying to get pads out, spread open the pistons, place pads back in and then realign everything. It's still an opposed piston caliper and very simply and quick for pad changes. I'd estimate less than 10 min per side, once the car is off the ground and the wheels are off.
I can't agree with you on that one Gary. Having changed pads on many systems, including the Brembo racing series (though they do have fixed bridge units), removing the caliper is a big pain in the ass compared to removing a bridge. The caliper bracket on most systems is aluminium, and easy to cross thread - plus you need to use loctite on those main bolts - plus it is easier to spread the pistons with the caliper mounted.

In fact, IMO the stoptech design is even easier than the brembo F40/F50 design, removing and installing those pins is more difficult than removing the bridge.

The speed of changing pads on the 6pot kit is kind of a moot point anyways for the E9X. The only available brembo kit is based on a 380mm rotor and is not very club-racer friendly. I wouldn't run an 18" wheel with that size rotor, and there are very few r-comp tires available in 19" sizes.

Stoptech is launching a 355mm kit that will probably be much more popular with club racers and HPDEers. Assuming the stock system does not hold up with racing pads and fluid, this is likely the way I would go - strictly for practicality and usability though.
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      01-07-2009, 11:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
I can't agree with you on that one Gary. Having changed pads on many systems, including the Brembo racing series (though they do have fixed bridge units), removing the caliper is a big pain in the ass compared to removing a bridge. The caliper bracket on most systems is aluminium, and easy to cross thread - plus you need to use loctite on those main bolts - plus it is easier to spread the pistons with the caliper mounted.

In fact, IMO the stoptech design is even easier than the brembo F40/F50 design, removing and installing those pins is more difficult than removing the bridge.

The speed of changing pads on the 6pot kit is kind of a moot point anyways for the E9X. The only available brembo kit is based on a 380mm rotor and is not very club-racer friendly. I wouldn't run an 18" wheel with that size rotor, and there are very few r-comp tires available in 19" sizes.

Stoptech is launching a 355mm kit that will probably be much more popular with club racers and HPDEers. Assuming the stock system does not hold up with racing pads and fluid, this is likely the way I would go - strictly for practicality and usability though.
Great info! Thanks for sharing
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      01-07-2009, 11:51 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
I can't agree with you on that one Gary. Having changed pads on many systems, including the Brembo racing series (though they do have fixed bridge units), removing the caliper is a big pain in the ass compared to removing a bridge. The caliper bracket on most systems is aluminium, and easy to cross thread - plus you need to use loctite on those main bolts - plus it is easier to spread the pistons with the caliper mounted.

In fact, IMO the stoptech design is even easier than the brembo F40/F50 design, removing and installing those pins is more difficult than removing the bridge.
That's very surprising to hear. I do appreciate the feedback, and am always open to listening to anyones opinions.
Maybe the fact that I am around these calipers every day and have done the job soo many times it's hard for me to understand why someone may consider it difficult.

The F40 / F50 calipers are literally a 3 minute job to change pads, including retracting the pistons.
I do agree that nothing is easier than a full race style caliper with the hinged cross pin...


(this caliper had an integral bridge but does not require removing the caliper)

...but with the proper tools, and assuming it's not your first time doing it, it's not any more complicated than it sounds. Just remove 2 pins and the pads slide out of the top. You can even use the old pads to leverage the pistons to full open position to accept the new (full thickness) pads. No need for a piston spreader tool.

I am in the process of editing an instructional video for the 6-piston monobloc caliper. As soon as that is finished it looks like I will now being making them for the rest of the calipers in our product line.

Like I said, I'm very surprised to hear that pad changes are such a large factor for peoples decisions between brands and I do appreciate the feedback. Every Brembo caliper can have a pad change performed in less than 10 minutes with very minimal tools and effort so it's never seemed like an issue until very recent conversations.
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      01-08-2009, 12:58 AM   #33
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Hey Gary is that the Forged monoblock? Whats the difference between the GT kit? PM me a price too(if you sell them). Thanks for the very informative posts.
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      01-08-2009, 01:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_C View Post
That's very surprising to hear. I do appreciate the feedback, and am always open to listening to anyones opinions.

Like I said, I'm very surprised to hear that pad changes are such a large factor for peoples decisions between brands ... so it's never seemed like an issue until very recent conversations.
I'm glad you said that! The track rat crowd is very pragmatic - can I fit an affordable set of tires over the BBK and can I easily change the pads before I drive home? A "no" to either and interest fades pretty fast!

There's no doubt that Brembo is a superb product. So are Stoptech, AP and a few others. Since they all do what we're looking for, ease of use is an important parameter in the buying decision.

It may come as a new issue to you because the M3 has a split buyer community. The track crowd and the performance crowd. The track guys look for "value-priced performance", the perf crowd looks for, well, "performance".

Your defense of Brembo is sounding a little defensive, and probably unnecessarily so. Hopefully your video will make it clear how to swap pads in the same few minutes you get to switch out your track tires at the end of the day. If the caliper bracket is steel, or if the mounting bolts are screwed into steel sleeves in an aluminum caliper bracket, it's a breeze. If they screw into aluminum, I'm going to worry about wear if I'm re-and-re'ing them twice every few weeks.
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      01-08-2009, 01:33 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_C View Post
The F40 / F50 calipers are literally a 3 minute job to change pads, including retracting the pistons.
I know, I've owned a 4-wheel GT kit for 3 years on my E46...over 15K track miles. I am very happy with it. I have probably changed pads 30+ times.

But the ST40 is easier. (like 1 minute easier though)

Though nothing like the $15K setup you show in that pic
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      01-08-2009, 02:18 AM   #36
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Here is the quick release option on the ST that i was referring too. If you notice the picture, all you have to do is remove the 4 bolts on the bridge (I think you don't even need a tool for it... you can remove it by clicking on the blue button and slide the bolt out) and you have the pads out.

I really like that as it would allow me to run a very aggressive pad for the track and switch to ceramic pads (low dust) for the street as fast as switching to my street wheel/tire setup.
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      01-08-2009, 04:13 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_C View Post
Like I said, I'm very surprised to hear that pad changes are such a large factor for peoples decisions between brands and I do appreciate the feedback. Every Brembo caliper can have a pad change performed in less than 10 minutes with very minimal tools and effort so it's never seemed like an issue until very recent conversations.
Gary

As you know I was the first one to raise a thread on this. I think the issue is that many people just buy a BBK for looks alone, and many of those same folk, will more than likely choose Brembo for the name above anything else. (I'm not saying that name isn't justifiably backed up by quality, they are obviously high quality brakes).

You then get someone like myself who tracks the car a lot, who is interested in looks, performance and also saving time. I hate the OEM sliding calipers when it comes to pad changes, and the Brembos's are definitely quicker than that.

But I just can't understand how you can continue to claim that removing the entire caliper is the same as removing the bolts on the Stoptech bridge. It simply isn't. The stoptech bridge bolts are easy to remove and replace (either by Allen key on the 4 pots or the quick release on the 6) and this is easier because you are dealing with a fixed object. The monobloc caliper is obviously bigger, heavier, and then you have to reposition it with the pads "floating". If you forget the additional risk of cross threading or stripping the head off the main bolts, the whole act of removing the caliper and trying to position the pads is definitely slower than the stoptech. This is before mentioning the pins or that fiddly spring plate. I certainly couldn't see myself relishing doing this in the middle of a track session.

I will reserve final judgement until I have seen your instructional video however.

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      01-08-2009, 04:42 AM   #38
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Personally just received my AP RACING in 376mm...looks amazing!

Will post pics once mounted.
It will break hard!
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      01-08-2009, 10:29 AM   #39
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Personally just received my AP RACING in 376mm...looks amazing!

Will post pics once mounted.
It will break hard!
Could we have some pics, weight specs and reviews if possible?
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      01-08-2009, 04:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
If the caliper bracket is steel, or if the mounting bolts are screwed into steel sleeves in an aluminum caliper bracket, it's a breeze. If they screw into aluminum, I'm going to worry about wear if I'm re-and-re'ing them twice every few weeks.
, It's hard not to cross thread the adapter. I have a Brembo BBK on my Cayman S and the adapter threads are getting worn to the point of replacement after 8 months of use. One more R&R and I need to toss'm. I wish they were steel, came with studs or we just more durable.
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      01-08-2009, 07:34 PM   #41
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You know how much one of the those darn Brembo caliper brackets cost if you hose up the threads? You don't want to know. Lets just say I seriously considered having a new one fabed instead of buying one - it would have been much cheaper.
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      01-08-2009, 07:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSs1Power View Post
Here is the quick release option on the ST that i was referring too. If you notice the picture, all you have to do is remove the 4 bolts on the bridge (I think you don't even need a tool for it... you can remove it by clicking on the blue button and slide the bolt out) and you have the pads out.

I really like that as it would allow me to run a very aggressive pad for the track and switch to ceramic pads (low dust) for the street as fast as switching to my street wheel/tire setup.
That is bad azz. I love it.
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      01-08-2009, 09:25 PM   #43
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Good info Gary. Do you guys sell Brembo BBKs ? Pm me if you do.
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      01-08-2009, 09:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
I've decided I will probably go with Brembo. The reason for this is, and is definitely not limited to:

- AP racing is owned by Brembo
- AP racing allows 3rd parties to build their brakes
Sorry, but I must interject a bit of clarity here into this somewhat spirited debate.

1. AP Racing was spun off in the 60's from Automotive Products plc, an automotive supplier dating back to the 1920's. It was purchased by Brembo about 8 or 9 years ago due to reasons that make a great cocktail story, but not really for general consumption. They are both still 99.99% separate as far as design, engineering, testing, quality systems, manufacturing, marketing, sales and anything else I'm forgetting. Both are world-class top brands and, in many cases, both compete ferociously for the same business, which helps keep them many steps ahead of their competitors in areas they care about. How tough is the competition? Both the Nissan R35 GT-R and the new Spec V version use Brembo brake systems. The R35 GT500 race car is on AP's. No quarter given.

2. Maybe I don't understand the 3rd party comment or how it is relevant. AP Racing is in full control of the production of their products. They do use subcontractors, just like any other manufacturer does. To my knowledge (and I've been working with them or against them for almost 20 years) all their calipers and rotors are produced in the UK, not Taiwan, Korea, China, Viet Nam, etc. Their quality control is maddening when you are the one waiting for parts.

If you are referring to how brake systems are designed and built, AP Racing operates in much the same way it has for the last 40 years (and the 40 years before that). They build some of the finest equipment available for automotive and racing engineers to design into their cars. Think Bugatti, Konigsegg, Ultima, Noble, Rossion, Farbio, Caparo, McLaren, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lotus, Morgan, Spyker, Holden HSV, Tesla and more. Their products, along with Brembo and Alcon, are considered the finest a professional race team can buy. Since AP doesn't sponsor race teams with parts or money, you won't see large stickers on an F1 side pod (approaching 700 GP wins right there) or patches on Johnny Joe Jim Bob's NASCAR driver's suit. But odds are he's racing on them! The latest RadiCal caliper (Google THAT one for a little fun!) was used by 36 to 38 out of 43 starters on the toughest braking tracks in 2008.

AP Racing does produce its own line of aftermarket brake system (Formula Brake kits). These are geared towards cars sold in Europe, since that is where they are and can readily do fitment and testing. In addition, AP Racing road car components can be purchased by a very small handful of qualified distributors globally and installed into brake kits. Using STILLEN as an example, the company that basically invented marketable big brake systems by introducing Brembo to the US aftermarket 19 years ago, brake kit design is done in the USA with tight coordination with the engineers at AP. There is nothing remotely haphazard about it. Brakes are critical safety components and you simply cannot afford to make mistakes. That's part of the reason they are not cheap either. Knock-off companies don't have the R&D budgets the big guys have for one reason -- they don't do the job as required! They get away with it sometimes (I'd say too many!), but I've seen too many track day failures to want any part of that action.

Similarly, Brembo sells components to Race Technologies in the USA, who then develop and produce GT kits. This is a very capable and reputable company that has tons of experience in this area. I understand they also work closely with the home base in Italy before releasing anything to production. <-- Gary, correct me if I'm wrong here.

This response is not intended to be a marketing piece for anyone or any company, but it is very important that posts contain facts and clarity. I hope this helps!
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