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      12-31-2008, 06:02 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by mmmelbourne View Post
My reason for being disappointed at BMW was that they say that brakes(rotors/pads) are covered by their $0 maintenance program. If the car is used competitively, it is excluded. I don't expect them to pay for my tires, etc.

I was NOT racing or competing. A M car should be able to handle 20 mins of track time. BMW should either pay for it or exclude it from their M line. But they will not, it looks so good in advertising!

My Porsche handles the same track for 40+ min at a time (I am tired and have to go in before the brakes fade.) If I cook the brakes, I would not even complain to Porsche-they do not cover wear and tear items...

As to why not spend $ on a big brake kit...this is going to be my last BMW. I have not dealt with more arrogant and poorly managed dealers other than at MB. After 6+ BMWs in the last 10 years, I am done.
I'm sorry but that is still totally ridiculous. You said you went out for 20-30 minutes at a time. How much time in total in the day did your car spend on the track? A couple of hours?

How long did you cool down between sessions?

Did you drive the car after the pads were cooked? If as you say the pads were melted (and brake pads do wear down you know) and you drove and braked with ineffective pads then the rotor damage (and I'm not convinced there is any, see stoptech article above) is your problem.

To be honest I'm not sure why I'm even bothering you with trying to diagnose a cause here.

Track use whether competing or not is not normal use by any dimwits stretch of the imagination, and if you can't see the potential for abuse there then theres no point continuing the discussion.

Can you at least answer me this? Lets say you did even one track day per week. One hard track day can easily fry a set of road pads. Would you expect BMW to give you 52 sets of pads and a good few sets of rotors free a year under your maintenance deal?

You clearly want something for nothing. You went out on track with ROAD pads and are just pissed that you stupidly told your SA that you had tracked the car, thus preventing you from scamming them out of an expense that clearly should be your own.
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      12-31-2008, 09:06 AM   #46
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This complete post by the OP is a complete joke as the fix is quite simple and readily available.It called track padsWe know that once equipped and with proper fluid the brakes are quite good on track.You cannot expect a high powered sedan that has meet all the DOT brake standard requirements and still work properly when used hard at the track.Even Porsches need the pad change to work well on track as I discovered with my 99 996 coupe.Please get in touch with the real world when you are out beating on your car.
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      01-01-2009, 11:20 AM   #47
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I'm sorry but that is still totally ridiculous. You said you went out for 20-30 minutes at a time. How much time in total in the day did your car spend on the track? A couple of hours?

How long did you cool down between sessions?

Did you drive the car after the pads were cooked? If as you say the pads were melted (and brake pads do wear down you know) and you drove and braked with ineffective pads then the rotor damage (and I'm not convinced there is any, see stoptech article above) is your problem.

To be honest I'm not sure why I'm even bothering you with trying to diagnose a cause here.

Track use whether competing or not is not normal use by any dimwits stretch of the imagination, and if you can't see the potential for abuse there then theres no point continuing the discussion.

Can you at least answer me this? Lets say you did even one track day per week. One hard track day can easily fry a set of road pads. Would you expect BMW to give you 52 sets of pads and a good few sets of rotors free a year under your maintenance deal?

You clearly want something for nothing. You went out on track with ROAD pads and are just pissed that you stupidly told your SA that you had tracked the car, thus preventing you from scamming them out of an expense that clearly should be your own.
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This complete post by the OP is a complete joke as the fix is quite simple and readily available.It called track padsWe know that once equipped and with proper fluid the brakes are quite good on track.You cannot expect a high powered sedan that has meet all the DOT brake standard requirements and still work properly when used hard at the track.Even Porsches need the pad change to work well on track as I discovered with my 99 996 coupe.Please get in touch with the real world when you are out beating on your car.

dang! we see some real common sense coming through here. thank you!
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      01-01-2009, 07:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
This complete post by the OP is a complete joke as the fix is quite simple and readily available.It called track padsWe know that once equipped and with proper fluid the brakes are quite good on track.You cannot expect a high powered sedan that has meet all the DOT brake standard requirements and still work properly when used hard at the track.Even Porsches need the pad change to work well on track as I discovered with my 99 996 coupe.Please get in touch with the real world when you are out beating on your car.
Not sure about that. Porsche uses larger pads and they cool better due to size. The M3 comes with tiny crappy pads (crappy for repeated brake use like at the track), and replacing them is a step in the right direction, but they will still be tiny and take a while to cool. If the M3 had a great brake cooling system you could maybe get away with such small pads, but it doesn't. So IMO the M3 needs larger calipers in order to hold larger pads in order to cool better. This is the real world. Porsche got it right, BMW didn't on the M3. Yes, track pads will improve, but they will still not be that great due to small size.
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      01-01-2009, 09:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
This complete post by the OP is a complete joke as the fix is quite simple and readily available.It called track padsWe know that once equipped and with proper fluid the brakes are quite good on track.You cannot expect a high powered sedan that has meet all the DOT brake standard requirements and still work properly when used hard at the track.Even Porsches need the pad change to work well on track as I discovered with my 99 996 coupe.Please get in touch with the real world when you are out beating on your car.
+1...The OP says he followed a 335 for a while. The 335 has less capable brakes than the M3, yet, no reported problems for the 335. That leads me to assume some poor braking technique may be to blame.

Many folks on this forum have had on the track success with just a pad and fluid change. The brakes work fine on the track for a large majority of this forums track driver's.

I think the OP is just looking for an excuse to buy a P car.
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      01-01-2009, 10:01 PM   #50
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Not sure about that. Porsche uses larger pads and they cool better due to size. The M3 comes with tiny crappy pads (crappy for repeated brake use like at the track), and replacing them is a step in the right direction, but they will still be tiny and take a while to cool. If the M3 had a great brake cooling system you could maybe get away with such small pads, but it doesn't. So IMO the M3 needs larger calipers in order to hold larger pads in order to cool better. This is the real world. Porsche got it right, BMW didn't on the M3. Yes, track pads will improve, but they will still not be that great due to small size.
If Porsche had such a bulletproof brake system,how come I was changing front rotors every 3-4 track days because of cracking due to heat.The real issue here that if you are going to play on the track,you must pay regardless of what car you are using.
The other factor here is that my 996 had only 300 bhp and weighed 3200lbs and had brake "issues" even though it was much slower in a straight line than the M.A heavy car will go through many more consumables
on track than a lighter car.I had a race car that we pulled 400lbs out of due to rule changes and difference in component life was quite remarkable,not to mention the decrease in lap times.
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      01-02-2009, 01:11 AM   #51
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These cars are road cars in the end, and yes, it's up to you to invest money if tracking them hard - brakes, tires, etc. All I was saying is that the M3's stock brakes are a lot more inadequate for repeated hard braking/track use than any stock Porsche I've driven at the track. Stock for stock is my point. And this was part of the OP's point as well. Weight is not the point here. You design brakes for the car accordingly. BMW simply chose not to, yet advertises the car differently. I guess if you track it for 3 laps max at slow speeds and then sit 60 minutes for the brakes to cool... It's not rocket science to put in larger stock pads... It's a *decision* not to. Again, stock for stock, Porsche brakes are a lot better and fade nowhere near as fast with stock pads. What you do afterward is up to you, but that's off topic. If you drive the car at the track just on occasion, then maybe you don't need anything more than a change in fluid. Maybe better pads. Maybe even rotors. It all depends on how hard and often you track it. They are road cars as you say after all. But that's off topic as I said earlier.


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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
If Porsche had such a bulletproof brake system,how come I was changing front rotors every 3-4 track days because of cracking due to heat.The real issue here that if you are going to play on the track,you must pay regardless of what car you are using.
The other factor here is that my 996 had only 300 bhp and weighed 3200lbs and had brake "issues" even though it was much slower in a straight line than the M.A heavy car will go through many more consumables
on track than a lighter car.I had a race car that we pulled 400lbs out of due to rule changes and difference in component life was quite remarkable,not to mention the decrease in lap times.
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Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
Not sure about that. Porsche uses larger pads and they cool better due to size. The M3 comes with tiny crappy pads (crappy for repeated brake use like at the track), and replacing them is a step in the right direction, but they will still be tiny and take a while to cool. If the M3 had a great brake cooling system you could maybe get away with such small pads, but it doesn't. So IMO the M3 needs larger calipers in order to hold larger pads in order to cool better. This is the real world. Porsche got it right, BMW didn't on the M3. Yes, track pads will improve, but they will still not be that great due to small size.

Last edited by urbo73; 01-02-2009 at 09:38 AM.
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      01-02-2009, 12:32 PM   #52
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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
These cars are road cars in the end, and yes, it's up to you to invest money if tracking them hard - brakes, tires, etc. All I was saying is that the M3's stock brakes are a lot more inadequate for repeated hard braking/track use than any stock Porsche I've driven at the track. Stock for stock is my point. And this was part of the OP's point as well. Weight is not the point here. You design brakes for the car accordingly. BMW simply chose not to, yet advertises the car differently. I guess if you track it for 3 laps max at slow speeds and then sit 60 minutes for the brakes to cool... It's not rocket science to put in larger stock pads... It's a *decision* not to. Again, stock for stock, Porsche brakes are a lot better and fade nowhere near as fast with stock pads. What you do afterward is up to you, but that's off topic. If you drive the car at the track just on occasion, then maybe you don't need anything more than a change in fluid. Maybe better pads. Maybe even rotors. It all depends on how hard and often you track it. They are road cars as you say after all. But that's off topic as I said earlier.
1. My original reason for posting the message was because I was very disappointed with BMW dealer/BMW USA handling of this issue. A week to get a reply after a daily phone calls? Is that impatience on my part? Being treated like a criminal at the dealer? All I did was drive the fn MOTORSPORT car on a track. The dealer said that they had a FORMAL WRITTEN response from BMW USA. Would they let me see it? NO, it's for "internal use only."

2. The shop that replaced my rotors/pads was very disappointed by the lack of cooling ducts and the small size of the pads used in this car. They LOVE the car otherwise, and the owner is a friend of mine. In the shop at the time 996 Porsche, Gallardo, and a Ford Gt40, and a 1980's Porsche Turbo...They know what they are doing. He also used to work for BMW, and was disappointed and appalled that BMW did not cover the repair (he would have made nothing if the dealer covered it.)

3. Looking for an excuse to get a P car... Already have one next to the m3, and had it BEFORE the M3. I was just trying to compare service, and engineering differences.

4. Braking technique...I have auto-x for years, and been to quite a few track events in many different cars, and this was my latest experience. NEVER in the past have I had this problem! Brake fade, yes, but not this. Not in a MX-5 miata, MX-5 cup at Road Atlanta, Ariel Atom, various Porsches, previous MZ3, and M3...

I was NOT looking for a freebie! My point is that don't advertise the $0 ownership, and then treat customer like a criminal after they drive the car like the developers "designed" it and advertise it on the BMW M site. And I don't mean track weekend every week and expect BMW to replace worn out parts. But poor design and failure on the FIRST day at the track-and driven easy...

What the car needs are bigger pads, and venting in the front. The rotors are MORE than enough, and the single caliper is fine too, as is the brake fluid. The problem is the pads heat up after multiple stops, and there is no place for the heat to go. When you have your pads replaced, ask your dealer to see them-you will see what I mean.
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      01-02-2009, 08:59 PM   #53
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so sounds like you need to stop bitching and get to fabbing some brake ducts now doesnt it?
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      01-03-2009, 12:00 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmelbourne View Post
1. My original reason for posting the message was because I was very disappointed with BMW dealer/BMW USA handling of this issue. A week to get a reply after a daily phone calls? Is that impatience on my part? Being treated like a criminal at the dealer? All I did was drive the fn MOTORSPORT car on a track. The dealer said that they had a FORMAL WRITTEN response from BMW USA. Would they let me see it? NO, it's for "internal use only."

2. The shop that replaced my rotors/pads was very disappointed by the lack of cooling ducts and the small size of the pads used in this car. They LOVE the car otherwise, and the owner is a friend of mine. In the shop at the time 996 Porsche, Gallardo, and a Ford Gt40, and a 1980's Porsche Turbo...They know what they are doing. He also used to work for BMW, and was disappointed and appalled that BMW did not cover the repair (he would have made nothing if the dealer covered it.)

3. Looking for an excuse to get a P car... Already have one next to the m3, and had it BEFORE the M3. I was just trying to compare service, and engineering differences.

4. Braking technique...I have auto-x for years, and been to quite a few track events in many different cars, and this was my latest experience. NEVER in the past have I had this problem! Brake fade, yes, but not this. Not in a MX-5 miata, MX-5 cup at Road Atlanta, Ariel Atom, various Porsches, previous MZ3, and M3...

I was NOT looking for a freebie! My point is that don't advertise the $0 ownership, and then treat customer like a criminal after they drive the car like the developers "designed" it and advertise it on the BMW M site. And I don't mean track weekend every week and expect BMW to replace worn out parts. But poor design and failure on the FIRST day at the track-and driven easy...

What the car needs are bigger pads, and venting in the front. The rotors are MORE than enough, and the single caliper is fine too, as is the brake fluid. The problem is the pads heat up after multiple stops, and there is no place for the heat to go. When you have your pads replaced, ask your dealer to see them-you will see what I mean.

If you would have stated some of this (above) in the OP I think this thread would have been a lot shorter.
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      01-03-2009, 12:15 PM   #55
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Exclamation Give BMW Customer Service a hard time...

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Originally Posted by mmmelbourne View Post
My reason for being disappointed at BMW was that they say that brakes(rotors/pads) are covered by their $0 maintenance program. If the car is used competitively, it is excluded. I don't expect them to pay for my tires, etc.

I was NOT racing or competing. A M car should be able to handle 20 mins of track time. BMW should either pay for it or exclude it from their M line. But they will not, it looks so good in advertising!

My Porsche handles the same track for 40+ min at a time (I am tired and have to go in before the brakes fade.) If I cook the brakes, I would not even complain to Porsche-they do not cover wear and tear items...

As to why not spend $ on a big brake kit...this is going to be my last BMW. I have not dealt with more arrogant and poorly managed dealers other than at MB. After 6+ BMWs in the last 10 years, I am done.
Mmmelbourne -

I can completely sympathize with your situation. I would let BWM-US Customer Service know of your history (and loyalty) to BMW and your current stance on never returning to the brand.

Dealers a a bunch of shmucks! It's BMW Corporate you have to get to. Ask them to open a file - stress false advertising (daily driver that can be on the track one minute then off to the grocery store the next).

I had a lemon of a BMW a number of years back. I couldn't get anywhere with the dealership(s) - two of them. However, when I called BMW Corporate and filed a formal complaint, I interestingly enough started to get attention.

After the regional rep had to kick it up to the national specialist, BMW REPLACED MY CAR! Again, this was a few years ago, but BMW Corporate is the way to go.

Good Luck!
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      01-16-2009, 12:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmelbourne View Post
1. My original reason for posting the message was because I was very disappointed with BMW dealer/BMW USA handling of this issue. A week to get a reply after a daily phone calls? Is that impatience on my part? Being treated like a criminal at the dealer? All I did was drive the fn MOTORSPORT car on a track. The dealer said that they had a FORMAL WRITTEN response from BMW USA. Would they let me see it? NO, it's for "internal use only."

2. The shop that replaced my rotors/pads was very disappointed by the lack of cooling ducts and the small size of the pads used in this car. They LOVE the car otherwise, and the owner is a friend of mine. In the shop at the time 996 Porsche, Gallardo, and a Ford Gt40, and a 1980's Porsche Turbo...They know what they are doing. He also used to work for BMW, and was disappointed and appalled that BMW did not cover the repair (he would have made nothing if the dealer covered it.)

3. Looking for an excuse to get a P car... Already have one next to the m3, and had it BEFORE the M3. I was just trying to compare service, and engineering differences.

4. Braking technique...I have auto-x for years, and been to quite a few track events in many different cars, and this was my latest experience. NEVER in the past have I had this problem! Brake fade, yes, but not this. Not in a MX-5 miata, MX-5 cup at Road Atlanta, Ariel Atom, various Porsches, previous MZ3, and M3...

I was NOT looking for a freebie! My point is that don't advertise the $0 ownership, and then treat customer like a criminal after they drive the car like the developers "designed" it and advertise it on the BMW M site. And I don't mean track weekend every week and expect BMW to replace worn out parts. But poor design and failure on the FIRST day at the track-and driven easy...

What the car needs are bigger pads, and venting in the front. The rotors are MORE than enough, and the single caliper is fine too, as is the brake fluid. The problem is the pads heat up after multiple stops, and there is no place for the heat to go. When you have your pads replaced, ask your dealer to see them-you will see what I mean.
The manual clearly states that you should change the pads before track use and that the stock pads are not meant for track use. So, as far as BMW is concerned, you did not follow documented guidelines.

As others have stated, it is highly unlikely that you have warped rotors and the issue has to do with the stock pads melting on the rotors since they were not meant to be used in that context. Have you actually had the rotors tested/measured to make sure they warped?

I doubt that your rotor temp exceeded allowable operational limits for the rotor material. It doesn't sound like you drove it that hard. The size of the pads should not even be a factor under those circumstances.

However, I do agree BMW should be somewhat accomodating to customers who enjoy their Ms on a track on a limited basis. I don't think they should be responsible for wear and tear on high wear items such as brakes or clutches, but we should not have to worry to much about engine or suspension warranties for doing HPDEs 6-7 times a year.
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      01-16-2009, 06:18 PM   #57
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Your rotors are likely fine, a few days of moderate street use should take the material off, if not get more abrasive track pads to clean up the rotors, you'll not likely find anyone willing to 'turn' two piece rotors, they'll come out of the lathe in worse shape.

I get this condition everytime I go to the track with PFC01 pads. Try to warm your brakes up and avoid slamming up against ABS when they're cold.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

+1. Happened to me before.

The trick is to buy a set of aggressive front track pads, install and run them for a few days of street driving. That should clear the rotors of any pad deposit.

No BMW I've ever seen so far has pads adequate for track use - so if you want to trak, you need to always use track pads (and fluid). What can I say, pads may be adequate on Porsches, but you pay a LOT of extra $$$ for that capability.

I've done many track days with BMW's on stock rotors, just with fluid & pads. It's a simple formula, cheap and reliable.

And each time new/different pads go in, proper bedding in is required, not optional.
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      01-16-2009, 09:41 PM   #58
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explain to me how being on a track and keeping time is NOT racing, nor competitive driving? i seem to have misplaced my proper thought process.
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      01-17-2009, 09:24 AM   #59
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explain to me how being on a track and keeping time is NOT racing, nor competitive driving? i seem to have misplaced my proper thought process.
You are not racing or competing against anyone except yourself. Racing is VERY different than going around a track fast solo...What's so complicated to understand??
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      01-17-2009, 10:23 AM   #60
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You are not racing or competing against anyone except yourself. Racing is VERY different than going around a track fast solo...What's so complicated to understand??



i autocrossed SCCA for a few years in a toyota tacoma in street prepared class F. yes a tacoma. lowered/swaybars/leafsprings/shocks/225/45/17 michelin pilot sports/buncha engine work...... and hey it actually held 3rd place in my class for the years i competed.

running against trailed Datsun 510 caged cars, subaru's and imports in that class was a difficult task. my little street daily driver that took me back and forth to work, and that i thrashed on the weekends autocrossing.

dont tell me with a straight face that when your competing against yourself (as in SCCA solo racing) isnt trying to push your vehicle and yourself as hard as you can to get a low time. you dont go out there to take a stroll around the track. you push your vehicle as hard as you can and keep in control.

i remember rolling my pilot sports over so hard, the lettering on the sidewalls would be rubbed off.... with 50 PSI in them.

i remember trying to turn so quickly the truck would run out of power steering assist, it just couldnt turn from one side of steering lock to the other quick enough.... and thats off the rev limiter smoking tires..... having to suck the seatbelt down and get it to lock against your chest cause the little bench seat would throw you all over the place

i remember picking rubber off the fenders and liners, trying to buff out cone-rash from spinning out, and driving for the next week trying to clean off the brakes from the pulsing of the pads melting on the rotors.

so just a competition against yourself DOES NOT MEAN your driving like a little old grandma around the track or course.

highlighted the "competition" part

so i guess your right.... racing solo means the only body damage you should get is from your own stupid actions huh?

thats the only difference i see when racing with others or solo. your still driving as hard as you can.
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