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      12-06-2008, 03:30 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by haen View Post
Maybe his "continued insistence" was based on facts. All information comes from manufacturer's own press releases.

M156 6.2 liter V8 - 199kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2050713....ne---in-detail


S65 4.0 liter V8 - 202kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070322....gine-in-detail
Wow. That is pretty amazing. Facts are facts I guess. Kudos to MB on that engine.
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      12-06-2008, 03:46 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by haen View Post
Maybe his "continued insistence" was based on facts. All information comes from manufacturer's own press releases.

M156 6.2 liter V8 - 199kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2050713....ne---in-detail


S65 4.0 liter V8 - 202kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070322....gine-in-detail
Wasn't one weight wet and one dry? I remember someone bringing this up a while ago, but I don't think we ever cleared this up.
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      12-06-2008, 03:52 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Neither of those apply to the M3. BMW clearly can sell larger disp cars if they want, well, because they already do.

If I were buying a race car, point 2 would apply. The M3 isn't a race car, not even close. You know race cars have stripped interriors, cages, fire supression, ... BMW might make a race car version of the street car and then that would have its own seperate issues.

It it a good engine, yes. Is it the best, nope. Just because BMW builds something doesn't make it without fault.
I forgot what the displacement limit is now since class structure changed a bit, but in order to race I think BMW has to keep the V8 at 4.0 liters along with using restrictors. This is because of Porsche's whining about getting beat.
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      12-06-2008, 03:59 AM   #268
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The S65 is 80% the displacement of the S85. It is also 84% the weight and makes 82% of the power (85% if you look at the wheels.)

The S65 is going to be bound in part by being based on the S85.

The S65 internals are forged and the rods are steel-magnesium. Pistons are Iron coated and the crank is forged steel. The internals are stronger than the Mercedes 63 series. It is a better built, more technologically advanced motor that pushes the envelope further.
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      12-06-2008, 06:31 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haen View Post
Maybe his "continued insistence" was based on facts. All information comes from manufacturer's own press releases.

M156 6.2 liter V8 - 199kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2050713....ne---in-detail


S65 4.0 liter V8 - 202kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070322....gine-in-detail
Yes and manufacturers NEVER lie about their own vehicles. Now that is comical. You do realize that marketing folks have say over a spec sheet, not engineers. Not only is the M3 engine more compact but they entire car was the result of a pretty good obsession by its engineers and designers on control of weight gain. There are enough hollow parts on the car including the engine to save some significant weight. Mercedes obsession over weight was obviously quite a bit less with the C63 and other vehicles that use the same engine. To believe that these specs are absolutely apples to apples is a big stretch in my opinion.
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      12-06-2008, 06:50 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Neither of those apply to the M3. BMW clearly can sell larger disp cars if they want, well, because they already do.

If I were buying a race car, point 2 would apply. The M3 isn't a race car, not even close. You know race cars have stripped interriors, cages, fire supression, ... BMW might make a race car version of the street car and then that would have its own seperate issues.

It it a good engine, yes. Is it the best, nope. Just because BMW builds something doesn't make it without fault.
Not a good argument at all. Hmmm they can make all of their cars large displacement because they do make some of them large displacement. Talk about a non sequitur. Generally with BMW their largest engines are relegated to their largest, most luxurious and most expensive cars. The displacement thing is absolutely a factor for the M3. If it was 4.0 liters or greater it would make the price significantly higher resulting in making it significantly less attractive and affordable. There could be an issue as well about the displacement from a racing perspective. I don't know all of the classes that M3s race in and what all of those rules are, but it could be a factor. Either way I certainly don't believe nor did I imply the production M3 is a race car.

I do not posit that the M3s V8 is the "best engine" nor do I believe it is good simply because it is made by BMW. I have said time and time again the RS4s V8 was much more innovative for its time. It was revolutionary for a German sports sedan at the time whereas the M3 is really just the M5 with two cylinders lopped off. The M3 V8 absolutely should have had DI and the US version should have got BER like it did in Europe. That being said I do think it is one of the finest engines (and cars) around for for its combination of quality/style/materials/performance/usability/etc. all per dollar. The engines powerband is amazingly broad, perhaps unmatched, and driving it in its upper rpm ranges is so emotionally engaging and satisfying.
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      12-06-2008, 07:03 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
OK, tax regs are important in some countries, but in regard to engineering, I have this feeling that if you were in your Z06-powered M3 against my stock M3, blowing exhaust in my face as you ran away from me, your top thought wouldn't be: "Yeah, I'm killing him, but his car was more difficult to engineer. Damn!"

Bruce
I can easily separate my satisfaction based on competitive wins vs. other forms of satisfaction from a vehicle. Actually I do so little driving of this sort above it is more or less irrelevant. Believe it or not I do find great pleasure in engineering achievements (that shouldn't be that hard to swallow...). I like to have a car that is fast in many circumstances, exudes fine engineering from every nook cranny and feature and offers me both strong emotional and aesthetic connections. The M3s engine in particular offers many of these things. If I wanted ONLY bang per buck I would be driving a different car and I would be much more into modding. It is tough to argue 100% purely on price to performance without getting on that slippery slope of modding. It is almost impossible to justify a new car as well under such restrictions, Z06, LS3 or M3.
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      12-06-2008, 07:31 AM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haen View Post
Maybe his "continued insistence" was based on facts. All information comes from manufacturer's own press releases.

M156 6.2 liter V8 - 199kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2050713....ne---in-detail


S65 4.0 liter V8 - 202kg
Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070322....gine-in-detail
So you think Merc states their engine weights according to "BMW standard"?


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      12-06-2008, 10:53 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes and manufacturers NEVER lie about their own vehicles. Now that is comical. You do realize that marketing folks have say over a spec sheet, not engineers. Not only is the M3 engine more compact but they entire car was the result of a pretty good obsession by its engineers and designers on control of weight gain. There are enough hollow parts on the car including the engine to save some significant weight. Mercedes obsession over weight was obviously quite a bit less with the C63 and other vehicles that use the same engine. To believe that these specs are absolutely apples to apples is a big stretch in my opinion.
Jeez, speaking of comical, the last time I mentioned you thought the Merc people were lying, you got all huffy in your denial. Now, you're out in the open with it.

Furthermore, to state that marketing people publish whatever specs they want is nonsense. That may in fact be true in one of, say, 100 companies, but the other 99 just publish the specs, and either put flowery words around them (the way BMW and Mercedes have), or not.

Ridiculous.

Furthermore, it is very reasonable to assume that both BMW and Mercedes published their respective engine weights under Euro rules - whatever they are.

Of course, my love of tweaking aside, it's also very reasonable to assume that the Merc weighs more than the bimmer.

So why does the Merc appear to weigh less than the bimmer?

Well, in the absence of anybody on here who is knowledgeable of the rules, one reason could be that the bimmer weight includes that dual-mass flywheel (because that's the only way it's built), while the Merc includes its flexplate, because that's the only way it is built.

So the Merc gets maybe a thirty pound break, statwise.

OK, maybe all the faithful can finally get a good night's sleep.

Lastly, all those who think BMW uses its own standards instead of Eurospec or SAE standards for published specs (thereby negating horsepower ratings, torque ratings, engine weight, vehicle weight and all others) please raise your hands.

Anyone? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

Bruce

PS - So does the Merc engine weigh more than the bimmer or not? Now, the answer is either, "yes, but..." or "no, but...".

Cool.
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      12-06-2008, 01:30 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes and manufacturers NEVER lie about their own vehicles. Now that is comical. You do realize that marketing folks have say over a spec sheet, not engineers. Not only is the M3 engine more compact but they entire car was the result of a pretty good obsession by its engineers and designers on control of weight gain. There are enough hollow parts on the car including the engine to save some significant weight. Mercedes obsession over weight was obviously quite a bit less with the C63 and other vehicles that use the same engine. To believe that these specs are absolutely apples to apples is a big stretch in my opinion.
I just provided stats from both manufacturers!!! You have no factual evidence to back up anything you say so you've resulted to calling Mercedes a liar. That's so incredibly weak. Have you ever written a research paper? You need sources to back up what you say. Otherwise, you're just running your mouth.

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Not a good argument at all. Hmmm they can make all of their cars large displacement because they do make some of them large displacement. Talk about a non sequitur. Generally with BMW their largest engines are relegated to their largest, most luxurious and most expensive cars. The displacement thing is absolutely a factor for the M3. If it was 4.0 liters or greater it would make the price significantly higher resulting in making it significantly less attractive and affordable. There could be an issue as well about the displacement from a racing perspective. I don't know all of the classes that M3s race in and what all of those rules are, but it could be a factor. Either way I certainly don't believe nor did I imply the production M3 is a race car.
Why can't BMW make their engines any displacement they want? How does the M3 having higher displacement mean it will cost more? So you're telling me that if BMW designed the M3 to have a 5.0 liter V8 that instead of its 4 liter version, that it would be priced at the same level as an M5, solely because of its displacement? I hope you never run a car company. And you just admitted that you don't know anything about the classes or rules the M3 will race under, so all of your comments are without merit. When production based cars run in race series, they generally have restrictor plates which limit the amount of air the engine can draw in. If all engines can only breath the same amount of air, then they should be equally limited in the amount of power they produce. Oxygen is just as important as gasoline in the combustion cycle as it is the fuel for the gasoline.


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The S65 internals are forged and the rods are steel-magnesium. Pistons are Iron coated and the crank is forged steel. The internals are stronger than the Mercedes 63 series. It is a better built, more technologically advanced motor that pushes the envelope further.
It still doesn't produce as much power for its weight as Mercedes V8 or the Z06 V8 and that's the core discussion here. The reason the M3 needs all of those extra strong components you listed is because of how high the engine revs. It puts a lot more strain on all the components to rev that extra ~2k. Mercedes and Corvette don't need parts like that because their engines are not as stressed. How is the M3 more technologically advanced? How does it push the envelope further? You need to remember, that engines are built with more than just attaining 100+ hp/liter. So while this engine may be an excellent example of a high revving motor, it does not discount other engines because they were built with different goals in mind. I already said all of this to you before but nothing gets to you.
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      12-06-2008, 01:38 PM   #275
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When do you guys feel this next generation M3 will be coming out? I want to pull the trigger on purchasing an M3 soon, and I don't want to purchase one when the next advancement is already going to be coming out!
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      12-06-2008, 01:49 PM   #276
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Yea, gotta say I love my NA high reving M3. I drove couple of 2009 911s two days ago for hours (an S4 and an S) and a missed the high revs sooooooo much. One thing Iīll give the the Porsche though is the really nice dual clutch transmission. Torque never comes down.
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      12-06-2008, 01:50 PM   #277
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When do you guys feel this next generation M3 will be coming out? I want to pull the trigger on purchasing an M3 soon, and I don't want to purchase one when the next advancement is already going to be coming out!
Thatīs gotta be a least 3 years out.
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      12-06-2008, 01:50 PM   #278
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When do you guys feel this next generation M3 will be coming out? I want to pull the trigger on purchasing an M3 soon, and I don't want to purchase one when the next advancement is already going to be coming out!
I wouldn't hold your breath. The recent M3 is only around 1 year old....
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      12-06-2008, 01:54 PM   #279
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I wouldn't hold your breath. The recent M3 is only around 1 year old....
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      12-06-2008, 03:50 PM   #280
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+1
Yeah true, that's why I was kind of scratching my head. I'm like damn I could have swore I just got over the jitters of this car just coming out. Haha.

Guess I'll pull the trigger, thanks!
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      12-06-2008, 03:52 PM   #281
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I have no way of proving this but I reckon BMW have chosen to use high revving N/A engines of modest capacity to insure that the torque levels are only produced to the upper levels of the rev range. This means that gearbox, driveshaft, diff, etc., can be made as light as possible in comparison to the likes of the C63.

I guarantee that if the engine/drivetrain complete for both the M3 and the C63 were laid out in front of us and weighed, we would find that the M3 (even an M-DCT equipped one) would be much lighter. It's one of the reason for their remarkable low draintrain lose.

As for whether Mercedes and weighing their engines differently than BMW, that sounds ridiculous. Why would they do such a thing, surely they all have to measure in the same way or is that opinion soooo wrong.
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      12-06-2008, 06:02 PM   #282
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When do you guys feel this next generation M3 will be coming out? I want to pull the trigger on purchasing an M3 soon, and I don't want to purchase one when the next advancement is already going to be coming out!
If any indication from the last gen, I would say MY2014-ish?
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      12-06-2008, 06:11 PM   #283
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It still doesn't produce as much power for its weight as Mercedes V8 or the Z06 V8 and that's the core discussion here. The reason the M3 needs all of those extra strong components you listed is because of how high the engine revs. It puts a lot more strain on all the components to rev that extra ~2k. Mercedes and Corvette don't need parts like that because their engines are not as stressed. How is the M3 more technologically advanced? How does it push the envelope further? You need to remember, that engines are built with more than just attaining 100+ hp/liter. So while this engine may be an excellent example of a high revving motor, it does not discount other engines because they were built with different goals in mind. I already said all of this to you before but nothing gets to you.
Of course it doesn't produce as much power for its weight, it has far less displacement, only logical. It produces proportional power to the motor it is based on, logical. It also makes more power per cubic inch, doesn't it?

You don't seem to get it. The M3 motor uses higher quality components and is more technologically advanced. If the parts are stronger, what makes you think they are more stressed? Once again, considering the E46 M3 could hit more than double the factory hp, seems to me the parts can handle 8k no problem. The Z06 is the one who's rods start to give out at <20% torque increase.

Last edited by Sticky; 12-06-2008 at 08:43 PM.
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      12-06-2008, 08:38 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Jeez, speaking of comical, the last time I mentioned you thought the Merc people were lying, you got all huffy in your denial. Now, you're out in the open with it.

Furthermore, to state that marketing people publish whatever specs they want is nonsense. That may in fact be true in one of, say, 100 companies, but the other 99 just publish the specs, and either put flowery words around them (the way BMW and Mercedes have), or not.

Ridiculous.

Furthermore, it is very reasonable to assume that both BMW and Mercedes published their respective engine weights under Euro rules - whatever they are.

Of course, my love of tweaking aside, it's also very reasonable to assume that the Merc weighs more than the bimmer.

So why does the Merc appear to weigh less than the bimmer?

Well, in the absence of anybody on here who is knowledgeable of the rules, one reason could be that the bimmer weight includes that dual-mass flywheel (because that's the only way it's built), while the Merc includes its flexplate, because that's the only way it is built.

So the Merc gets maybe a thirty pound break, statwise.

OK, maybe all the faithful can finally get a good night's sleep.

Lastly, all those who think BMW uses its own standards instead of Eurospec or SAE standards for published specs (thereby negating horsepower ratings, torque ratings, engine weight, vehicle weight and all others) please raise your hands.

Anyone? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

Bruce

PS - So does the Merc engine weigh more than the bimmer or not? Now, the answer is either, "yes, but..." or "no, but...".

Cool.
Hmm, a quick look at this page (http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070322....gine-in-detail) would be enough to read "weight to BMW standard", so here I am and raise my hand. Hard to argue with that, isn't it?

BTW: I found an German Merc/AMG forum which seems to have quite knowledgable information and the common sense there is that the M156 engine comes in at 223kg (explicitly stated for the CLK version).

So we all still think the Merc engine is lighter?


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      12-06-2008, 09:08 PM   #285
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"Tough emissions standards worldwide and soaring manufacturing costs in Germany are behind BMW's decision to switch from high-revving, naturally aspirated engines in its M high-performance vehicles to turbocharged direct-injection powerplants, beginning as early as next year."

Soaring manufacturing costs...sounds like it's more about the bottom line than the advantages of a turbocharged engine.
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      12-06-2008, 09:22 PM   #286
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Jeez, speaking of comical, the last time I mentioned you thought the Merc people were lying, you got all huffy in your denial. Now, you're out in the open with it.

Furthermore, to state that marketing people publish whatever specs they want is nonsense. That may in fact be true in one of, say, 100 companies, but the other 99 just publish the specs, and either put flowery words around them (the way BMW and Mercedes have), or not.

Ridiculous.

Furthermore, it is very reasonable to assume that both BMW and Mercedes published their respective engine weights under Euro rules - whatever they are.

Of course, my love of tweaking aside, it's also very reasonable to assume that the Merc weighs more than the bimmer.

So why does the Merc appear to weigh less than the bimmer?

Well, in the absence of anybody on here who is knowledgeable of the rules, one reason could be that the bimmer weight includes that dual-mass flywheel (because that's the only way it's built), while the Merc includes its flexplate, because that's the only way it is built.

So the Merc gets maybe a thirty pound break, statwise.

OK, maybe all the faithful can finally get a good night's sleep.

Lastly, all those who think BMW uses its own standards instead of Eurospec or SAE standards for published specs (thereby negating horsepower ratings, torque ratings, engine weight, vehicle weight and all others) please raise your hands.

Anyone? Anyone?

Didn't think so.

Bruce

PS - So does the Merc engine weigh more than the bimmer or not? Now, the answer is either, "yes, but..." or "no, but...".

Cool.
I never said they lied. Different specifications can be interpreted a variety of differnent ways and you still. That does not make it lying it simply make it NOT apples to apples. That is and has been my point all along.

Is underrating hp and 0-60 times lying or being conservative. BMW does both. Call it as you like it is not entirely honest.

I am keenly interested in the data that shows the weight difference between the C63 and M3 flywheels. If it is so good find.

Last but not least, see Souths good posts. I'm with him.
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