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      11-26-2008, 07:16 PM   #133
swamp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Only if you say so, but if true then it's been and obscure position because for the most part your stance would suggest otherwise.

You wrote this only a short while ago which suggests different.

You see how difficult it is to know what you mean at any one time. Maybe that is why I keep repeating myself.
You can selectively quote all you want. My position on the ZR1 video analysis has been clear. UP TO THE point when it was clear that the car was not under WOT or not under full acceleration, I believe it was under WOT. Again from about 109 - 170 mph. I stated they very early in our discussion in this post, long before you brought it up. Any other position would be absurd given the video. My analysis specifically stopped just at this point so it's really immaterial to my conclusion nor to proper use of this data in my analysis. All of the other discussion, argument and disagreement was about whether there was a lift BEFORE 170 and I am convinced there was not. You are the one who then continued to focus on the peak speeds and what happened further down the track. I always said that an analysis can't be done for the ZR1 past this point based on this simple observation. Sorry foot, case closed.

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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I believe we are in disagreement as to where the two points are being measured, I believe it's the middle of both apexes were as you think it's the entry point of the apex (i.e. when the car first touches the apex). As I said I believe it's the latter and thus the 15mph different I believe there is between the two cars.
Yes serious disagreement. You still have this wrong. DR states in no unclear terms "MINIMUM SPEED". How much more clarity do you need? If you want to reinterpret that to mean speed at a predefinied position you can, but it is not correct nor justified. This is what we call arbitrary. Heck I would even go further and call it comedic. My analysis uses the end of the curb to be conservative. I never said anything about an "entry point of the apex". That is meaningless. An apex is a single point in a turn perhaps you mean the turn in point? Doesn't matter I never brought that up either. The devil is in the details. Either DR is wrong or footie is wrong. Minimum speed means minimum speed, it does not mean the speed at a fixed spatial location.

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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I suggested this right at the very beginning and I might add you laughed at this very thought. I told you it was an educated guess from experience though not of this track and it looks like after months of arguing you are starting to see the light, though you will never agree that I was right about this.
Incorrrect. I brought it up first. See link above.

Keep trying foot, you are not making any progress nor convincing anyone. It doesn't really matter either you come to 530 hp precisely and for all GT-Rs by a guess or some other process. I come to a range of 530-560 by a rigorous analysis. The trap speed data shows a wide variation as well which I have always spoken about. You disagree on this as well, but then continue to dodge this point. We agree on the ultimate end result but I can always fall back to my analysis, perfect or not. You have your "guess".
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      11-26-2008, 08:21 PM   #134
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Way back to the original post that opened this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monaroCountry View Post
* Wolf could be Wolfgang Kaufmann *
The quote in your source is from the GT-R Ring lap test by Wolfgang Weber in an e-mail he wrote. He obtained a 7:49 but figured by eliminating a couple of mistakes and passing maneuvers he could have got a 7:46 (based on data logger).

Quote:
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
Meaning not possible to go faster than 7:46.

Webber is qualified as a test driver, as he has held some Ring records and is an active and successful racer at the Ring 24h race and is a factory pilot for RUF (his CV is HERE). This effort was testing the GT-R as part of a suspension development program for KW. Here is another video bit about how thorough he is at the Ring.

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      11-27-2008, 10:12 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You can selectively quote all you want. My position on the ZR1 video analysis has been clear. UP TO THE point when it was clear that the car was not under WOT or not under full acceleration, I believe it was under WOT. Again from about 109 - 170 mph. I stated they very early in our discussion in this post, long before you brought it up. Any other position would be absurd given the video. My analysis specifically stopped just at this point so it's really immaterial to my conclusion nor to proper use of this data in my analysis. All of the other discussion, argument and disagreement was about whether there was a lift BEFORE 170 and I am convinced there was not. You are the one who then continued to focus on the peak speeds and what happened further down the track. I always said that an analysis can't be done for the ZR1 past this point based on this simple observation. Sorry foot, case closed.
So you now believe it was your thinking for the lack of peak speed from the ZR1 in comparison to the Nissan GTR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes serious disagreement. You still have this wrong. DR states in no unclear terms "MINIMUM SPEED". How much more clarity do you need? If you want to reinterpret that to mean speed at a predefinied position you can, but it is not correct nor justified. This is what we call arbitrary. Heck I would even go further and call it comedic. My analysis uses the end of the curb to be conservative. I never said anything about an "entry point of the apex". That is meaningless. An apex is a single point in a turn perhaps you mean the turn in point? Doesn't matter I never brought that up either. The devil is in the details. Either DR is wrong or footie is wrong. Minimum speed means minimum speed, it does not mean the speed at a fixed spatial location.
Maybe your understanding of minimum corner speed is different to mine. I always classed to point of reference as the middle of the corner and the reasons you use 'minimum' is that only a few yards along the corner the speed can be very different. The 95mph you refer to is the setting up for the corner and not the middle of the apex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Keep trying foot, you are not making any progress nor convincing anyone. It doesn't really matter either you come to 530 hp precisely and for all GT-Rs by a guess or some other process. I come to a range of 530-560 by a rigorous analysis. The trap speed data shows a wide variation as well which I have always spoken about. You disagree on this as well, but then continue to dodge this point. We agree on the ultimate end result but I can always fall back to my analysis, perfect or not. You have your "guess".
It's you opinion I am not convincing anyone, but I don't hear too many rallying to your cause. The people who DO feel like I do are a little more experienced than the norm and their opinion means more to me at least than any mass agreement.

P.S.
It's funny how my guess work seems to be spot on most of the time. Maybe you should just ask me first before wasting so much time on your lengthy analysis work.
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      11-27-2008, 11:22 AM   #136
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GTR = Most bullshit to come from the Asia since pearl harbor.


ZR1 > GTR, but what alot of people refuse to acknowladge, ACR > ZR1
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      11-27-2008, 11:33 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
GTR = Most bullshit to come from the Asia since pearl harbor.


ZR1 > GTR, but what alot of people refuse to acknowladge, ACR > ZR1
Great one line answers don't hack it in a constructive and educated debate.

I agree with everything you are saying about the Viper vs Vette, but then again the Viper is not your common garden road car in the same spirit as both the GTR and ZR1 are, it's a track car with number plates which has little or no creature comforts.

That might not be a problem to you but to most people with their own teeth, hearing and spine they might chose to pick one of the others. Making a car quick is not the tricking part, it's combining it with all of the other things one expect from a daily driver.

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Look over your shoulder, your boss is watching.
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      11-27-2008, 11:51 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
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      11-27-2008, 11:58 AM   #139
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LOL2
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      11-27-2008, 06:06 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
So you now believe it was your thinking for the lack of peak speed from the ZR1 in comparison to the Nissan GTR.
No it is not my thinking nor belief it is THE EVIDENCE as I quoted it with a link and reference to an exact post. I BROUGHT IT UP FIRST, PERIOD. You are wrong again. Your adherence to factually incorrect information and accustations is stunning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Maybe your understanding of minimum corner speed is different to mine. I always classed to point of reference as the middle of the corner and the reasons you use 'minimum' is that only a few yards along the corner the speed can be very different. The 95mph you refer to is the setting up for the corner and not the middle of the apex.
Wrong again. Minimum is minimum is minimum and there is no wiggle room on this definition. Semantics, misinterpretation and your pig headedness can not change this. Photographic evidence is supplied below. This is the last corner right before the straight, minimum corner speed is 95 as I have said all along (which I highlighted), and despite being a bit hazy you can clearly see the red marker for the car right in the middle of the corner (again highlighted). Keep trying, you can't win this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
It's funny how my guess work seems to be spot on most of the time. Maybe you should just ask me first before wasting so much time on your lengthy analysis work.
There is nothing wrong with guesswork. As I have always stated making good guesses when complete information is lacking is part experience, part art and even part science. Sometime you make good guesses, other times you don't. The difference is that mature debate with the chance to PROVE oneself right is predicated on analysis and proper argument, not guessing. This is an essential lesson you need to learn.

This has become an utter waste of time, your stubborness to admit error is simply unreal. I always do so quickly and gracefully and the evidence for both is right here for all to see. I am done with this part of this debate. Good day foot.
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      11-30-2008, 12:14 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
GTR = Most bullshit to come from the Asia since pearl harbor.


ZR1 > GTR, but what alot of people refuse to acknowladge, ACR > ZR1
This is sooo racist and it's not needed nor should it be tolerated.
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      11-30-2008, 12:28 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeS4 View Post
This is sooo racist and it's not needed nor should it be tolerated.
It's the standard tasteless, no-content nonsense the poster appears to specialize in, but racist? I don't think so.

Bruce
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      11-30-2008, 12:33 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
GTR = Most bullshit to come from the Asia since pearl harbor.


ZR1 > GTR, but what alot of people refuse to acknowladge, ACR > ZR1
Congoman775 = Biggest douchebag / wannabe on M3 Post
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      12-05-2008, 04:35 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
GTR = Most bullshit to come from the Asia since pearl harbor.


ZR1 > GTR, but what alot of people refuse to acknowladge, ACR > ZR1
these type of statements are not conducive to you being taken seriously, the first statement will be offensive to most people and tactless.

While I'm not a great fan of the GTR, it is a excellent performing vehicle with state of the art technology.

While I have not driven a ZR1 or a ACR, I know a regular Viper is quite hot and rough, feels like I could fry a egg on the center console when car got hot. The ACR is a track prepped Viper, making it even more uncivilized, while the ZR1 offers better straight line speed and more comfort, but I'll wait for some direct comparisions from reliable sources, or when I might get the chance to drive those beasts.


remember also the Viper offers no electronic nanny's except for ABS, anyone in the market for a Viper I recommend an abundant amount of driving schools.

Last edited by spearfisher; 12-05-2008 at 05:29 PM.
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      12-05-2008, 09:46 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spearfisher View Post
these type of statements are not conducive to you being taken seriously, the first statement will be offensive to most people and tactless.

While I'm not a great fan of the GTR, it is a excellent performing vehicle with state of the art technology.

While I have not driven a ZR1 or a ACR, I know a regular Viper is quite hot and rough, feels like I could fry a egg on the center console when car got hot. The ACR is a track prepped Viper, making it even more uncivilized, while the ZR1 offers better straight line speed and more comfort, but I'll wait for some direct comparisions from reliable sources, or when I might get the chance to drive those beasts.


remember also the Viper offers no electronic nanny's except for ABS, anyone in the market for a Viper I recommend an abundant amount of driving schools.
+1 Congoman is a joke. Check out this thread. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...183487&page=20
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