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      11-28-2008, 09:28 PM   #133
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i dont know if you were trying to make a point to me or something but that example really makes no sense, to me. BMW would never get rid of their M division.
It seems like you misread my post completely though. I don't know how you read that I was suggesting BMW would get rid of the M Division. It's hard to critique my own words of course, but I tried to pick out any piece of what I wrote that could somehow be construed as me saying that the M Division was going away and I simply cannot understand how it could be interpreted that way. I'd be happy to clarify though, if you can point me to which part of my post made you think that I claimed that.

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Just because they added SUVs to M does not mean they are willing to cut off performance cars to save money.
Certainly and I was not even remotely trying to make that point. I firmly believe the M Division will continue to develop performance cars, just as the article (as well as an abundance of other evidence) suggests. That much isn't really up for debate. However, I will suggest that the sharing of motors with regular series production cars could dilute the brand, and further brand dilution in other areas of the car's function or form could follow on.

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(BTW did they ever officially say that this X6 will have an M badge? people are just speculating that they will be. if they have, i stand corrected)
Nothing more official than this and other similar articles. None of it confirms anything officially of course, but certainly evidence at least appears to be mounting that the X6 M will exist (in favor of an X6 si).

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but to say that they would consider just making a 3 series with bmw performance parts and no more M is going to far.
What I am saying is that M is just a brand. And because it is a brand that BMW owns it is certainly well within their rights to call any car they want to an M car. If they want to call a 3 series with BMW performance parts an M3, then they certainly can. Perhaps this is not in their best interests. Ok. But we don't know yet where things might go. You and I might not buy a car like this, but maybe lots of other people would. It might hurt the brand irreperably, but maybe it wouldn't. Maybe the brand would flourish even more with a car like this, and maybe it would become more profitable. If the people in charge of the brand find that it is more lucrative to take their brand in a different direction - even the completely opposite one - then you better believe that such a thing is at least a possibility, and that they will at least considering doing so.

Sure, I am speculating. I am playing devils advocate. I am not necesarily saying any such thing will happen. It is a completely academic discussion. However, if a year ago someone posted to this forum and said BMW is making an X6 M and it will use an N64-based motor, few will agree with that person, and furthermore that person will get flamed. But now, that very thing is becoming accepted knowledge. So, how can we not say big changes are afoot for M? Big changes already happened. We just don't know how many more are ahead. I will suggest that at the very least there are some changes ahead that will cause even more controversy. I am just waiting to see what they might be.
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      11-28-2008, 09:48 PM   #134
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What's the deal about. We now can enjoy a gret high revving NA V8 in the M3 and when the next iteration is due in 2014 (don't think BMW does change the engine of the current M3) there will be a FI engine that bears not much resemblence to current turbo engines. KERS will make most of the difference. Turbo lag? Gone. Besides that it will for sure be an engine revving higher than the N54 currently does. So what's all the fuss about?
south, I hope you're right because that all sounds pretty good. If things do go down like that, then there might not be much to lament.

However, what about the things discussed in the article? Will the next M5 use the N64-derived motor that is in the "X6 M", as this article claims? If it does, I think there's not really a whole lot of difference than if they were to use the N54 in an M3. Do you disagree? Now of course, it doesn't mean that they will use the N54 as the basis for an M3 engine. That would be jumping to conclusions a little too prematurely. I am just saying that once the M5 goes that route (if it did) it can no longer be argued that BMW will develop unique turbo engines for all their M passenger cars. Maybe people here won't care much about what the M5 is powered by though? Arguably this whole thread is off topic for this board anyway. Maybe. But it would still be tough not to worry how things might come out a few years later if this same philosophy is applied to the M3.
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      11-28-2008, 10:05 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Here we are again: Praises on the downfall of the ///M division (miss our "moaner in chief" posting in this thread yet).

What's the deal about. We now can enjoy a gret high revving NA V8 in the M3 and when the next iteration is due in 2014 (don't think BMW does change the engine of the current M3) there will be a FI engine that bears not much resemblence to current turbo engines. KERS will make most of the difference. Turbo lag? Gone. Besides that it will for sure be an engine revving higher than the N54 currently does. So what's all the fuss about?

Best regards, south
Totally agree. The quintessential form of automotive art/tech, F1, has been, variously, 4, 8, 10 cylinders config; atmo, turbo and injection variations. Hell there was a SIX wheeled F1 car; ground effects' fans etc.

Whatever the M 'skunkworks' develops in the future M3s (Fxx) it will be quick and an absolute blast to drive.

Bottom line: technology and societal mores are fluid, and that means change. No point in railing against it, and hey, if you love your V8 (and who doesn't) then hang on to it, maybe in 30 years' time it will command a premium that some muscle cars are getting (except supply is a bit too great for the really big bucks).
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      11-29-2008, 12:36 AM   #136
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What kind of vehicle was it? Are you we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges
335, yes

I have also driven other turbo cars. Typically they were worse, but that doesn't make the 335 good, only good compared to other turbos.
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      11-29-2008, 01:21 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
335, yes

I have also driven other turbo cars. Typically they were worse, but that doesn't make the 335 good, only good compared to other turbos.
if you think the pre 29.2 progman 335 has lag, even when your tracking it, your in denial!! My car has no lag whatsoever and I've done some serious driving/testing to see if any lag existed. Come on get real
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      11-29-2008, 01:23 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Well those with the 29.2 + Progmans DO have more lag than the older cars....the software detune was initiated in response to wastegate rattle complaints by customers.
that's lag due to the software not the turbos. Different then turbo lag.
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      11-29-2008, 01:26 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by addy85 View Post
if you think the pre 29.2 progman 335 has lag, even when your tracking it, your in denial!! My car has no lag whatsoever and I've done some serious driving/testing to see if any lag existed. Come on get real
Or perhaps you don't know what lag is..

The throttle respone is not nearly as good as a M3 or Z06,
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      11-29-2008, 05:49 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
south, I hope you're right because that all sounds pretty good. If things do go down like that, then there might not be much to lament.

However, what about the things discussed in the article? Will the next M5 use the N64-derived motor that is in the "X6 M", as this article claims? If it does, I think there's not really a whole lot of difference than if they were to use the N54 in an M3. Do you disagree? Now of course, it doesn't mean that they will use the N54 as the basis for an M3 engine. That would be jumping to conclusions a little too prematurely. I am just saying that once the M5 goes that route (if it did) it can no longer be argued that BMW will develop unique turbo engines for all their M passenger cars. Maybe people here won't care much about what the M5 is powered by though? Arguably this whole thread is off topic for this board anyway. Maybe. But it would still be tough not to worry how things might come out a few years later if this same philosophy is applied to the M3.
Even if the next M3's engine is based on the N54 engine it doesn't mean it's just that engine with more boost. I'm sure there's some serious development going on to make an engine out of the existing one that's worth "wearing" the M badge. Compared to the S65 the N54 in its current version has two big disadvantages: Throttle response and redline. As far as the latter is concerned we might not see 8400rpm redline in such an engine, but I'm sure it might be in the ballpark of 8000. That was sufficient for the last M3, so it should be good enough for the next one. The other concern, throttle response, is something KERS will address. While the turbos need some time to spool up, the electric motor of KERS will address instant response. So technically it's possible to build an turbo engine that drives and behaves like an NA engine in almost every way and considering M philosophy and some recent statements that's most likely the way ///M division is heading. Hope this doesn't turn out be wishful thinking eventually.


Best regards, south
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      11-29-2008, 06:53 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Well Lancia found great success with such a setup. But then maybe you know more than the experts.

P.S.
The latest superchargers are very efficient and such a combination with a turbo would not only reduce lag to a level that it wouldn't be felt at all but allow a smaller/lighter engine to be used, thus improving handling even more.
Ok footie, thanks for bringing up Lancia. Dude, LANCIA, when the hell is the last time I have been to a Lancia dealership? Oh wait, NEVER.

Come on, a supecharger + turbo setup is absolutely stupid and it is a stupid suggestion, period. You need the supercharger, then the turbos, plus all the associated parts, hardware, cooling, plumbing, ridiculousness. I do like that you bring up interesting things, but I think you should leave the engineering choices to the engineers.

Instead of using a supercharger for the low end (depends on the supercharger, tons of variables) higher compression would be better for great throttle response. BMW will, most likely, do a direct injection turbo with higher compression and a high redline with small turbos. Think 335 and X6 V8 twin turbo combined but better, way better.

Freaking Lancia....
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      11-29-2008, 07:29 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Ok footie, thanks for bringing up Lancia. Dude, LANCIA, when the hell is the last time I have been to a Lancia dealership? Oh wait, NEVER.

Come on, a supecharger + turbo setup is absolutely stupid and it is a stupid suggestion, period. You need the supercharger, then the turbos, plus all the associated parts, hardware, cooling, plumbing, ridiculousness. I do like that you bring up interesting things, but I think you should leave the engineering choices to the engineers.

Instead of using a supercharger for the low end (depends on the supercharger, tons of variables) higher compression would be better for great throttle response. BMW will, most likely, do a direct injection turbo with higher compression and a high redline with small turbos. Think 335 and X6 V8 twin turbo combined but better, way better.

Freaking Lancia....
Did you ever hear about VW's 1.4 TSI engine? It's most probably not used in the US, but does exactly what you think is a stupid idea. Supercharger for the low end plus a turbo for higher revvs.


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      11-29-2008, 07:33 AM   #143
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Did you ever hear about VW's 1.4 TSI engine? It's most probably not used in the US, but does exactly what you think is a stupid idea. Supercharger for the low end plus a turbo for higher revvs.


Best regards, south
Yes, and it is still a stupid idea on an M car. That engine also is not available here.

They said they were going to do 1.6 liter and 2.0 liter versions but they are still on the drawing board. Making it work for an 8000 RPM M motor is not feasable, cost effective, or smart. Just buy a Lancia instead.
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      11-29-2008, 07:48 AM   #144
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Yes, and it is still a stupid idea on an M car.
Yep, probably not the best idea on an M car.


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      11-29-2008, 08:45 AM   #145
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good bye M. The fact that the next M cars are going to be based on mass production engines like the one in my 335 is sad, and also say good bye to the beautiful spine tingling sound and throttle response of a high revving N/A engine. this is indeed a sad day. Wht can't BMW just build a n/a halo car with a v12 so that we can at least admire this concept in the future. i doubt the owners of that car will be concerned about fuel economy and efficiency.
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      11-29-2008, 08:56 AM   #146
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It was sole a suggestion, based on the current economical conditions and how people's opinions have changed to what they look from their cars. Emissions and economy are as important as a high rev limit, the chances of the next M3 revving to over 8000rpm if equipped with forced induction is very slim. Plus Nissan has proven with the GTR that even less than 7000rpm is still acceptable and desirable if packaged correctly.

South is correct, VW have the 1.4TSI engine which does seem to tick a lot of boxes required in today's market. It's light, economical, has low emissions, is quick in stock form 170hp but have a lot of tuning potential (210~250hp) which is a seriously large amount from a 1.4L. I too have heard that others might follow and as yet nothing, but that hardly means 'never'. There was even rumours that the TT-RS would be running such an engine setup only in 2.5L 5cylinder form, don't know if there is any truth in this though.

Mercedes has some interesting technology in the pipeline which seems to give you your cake and be able to eat it. I believe it's a combination of diesel technology in a petrol engine.

One thing is for sure, BMW need to change from their current choice of engine if they want to continue to compete with the others. Audi, Mercedes, Nissan and others are looking at FI again as the best way to achieve the desired results of performance and emissions and if BMW M cars get left behind then that would be a crying shame.

P.S.

Your comments on Lancia just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject of cars and your ever increasing self importance that if it's not available in SolCal then it's not worth talking about. Really.............. you need to grow up and see the bigger picture.
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      11-29-2008, 10:45 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Or perhaps you don't know what lag is..

The throttle respone is not nearly as good as a M3 or Z06,
I don't know what lag is?

First off a Z06 is not a bmw.

Second, if bmw uses same small turbos similar to the ones used in the 335 the lag will be minimal if any.

Third, the throttle response of a 335 is not nearly as good as a m3 correct? Well of course its not, your comparing a Inline 6 to a V8. I would expect the V8 to respond quicker wouldn't you?

Lastly, your assuming that the new M, if turned to forced induction, is going to have lag without even knowing any of the specs of the motor or parts that are going to be used. BMW did an excellent job minimizing the lag in the 335 and I doubt thats not going to be one of their main concerns on the new M.

Oh btw
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      11-29-2008, 11:18 AM   #148
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I am more concerned on the reliability of the turbos if they ever went FI. The 335s had loads of wastegate problems. I just hope the new M3 in FI form, has completely redesigned wastegates.
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      11-29-2008, 12:17 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
It was sole a suggestion, based on the current economical conditions and how people's opinions have changed to what they look from their cars. Emissions and economy are as important as a high rev limit, the chances of the next M3 revving to over 8000rpm if equipped with forced induction is very slim. Plus Nissan has proven with the GTR that even less than 7000rpm is still acceptable and desirable if packaged correctly.

South is correct, VW have the 1.4TSI engine which does seem to tick a lot of boxes required in today's market. It's light, economical, has low emissions, is quick in stock form 170hp but have a lot of tuning potential (210~250hp) which is a seriously large amount from a 1.4L. I too have heard that others might follow and as yet nothing, but that hardly means 'never'. There was even rumours that the TT-RS would be running such an engine setup only in 2.5L 5cylinder form, don't know if there is any truth in this though.

Mercedes has some interesting technology in the pipeline which seems to give you your cake and be able to eat it. I believe it's a combination of diesel technology in a petrol engine.

One thing is for sure, BMW need to change from their current choice of engine if they want to continue to compete with the others. Audi, Mercedes, Nissan and others are looking at FI again as the best way to achieve the desired results of performance and emissions and if BMW M cars get left behind then that would be a crying shame.

P.S.

Your comments on Lancia just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject of cars and your ever increasing self importance that if it's not available in SolCal then it's not worth talking about. Really.............. you need to grow up and see the bigger picture.
My lack of knowledge of cars? Ok Footie, I don't know jack because I don't have a boner for Lancia.

Once again, Lancia? LANCIA? You mean rebadged FIAT's?

If Lancia was available in SoCal, I definitely see myself trading the M3 in for the Ypsilon:



Hot stuff... I'm thankful my automobile knowledge is not like yours Footie. You are still my friend though
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      11-29-2008, 12:55 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Once again, Lancia? LANCIA? You mean rebadged FIAT's?

If Lancia was available in SoCal, I definitely see myself trading the M3 in for the Ypsilon:
I'm going a bit here, but I have owned a Lancia Beta coupe and there was a time when Lancias were great cars (the 1st Lambda, Fulvia, Delta Integrale etc) - that Ypsilon is just a pathetic bastardization of a once-great marque.
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      11-29-2008, 01:03 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
I'm going a bit here, but I have owned a Lancia Beta coupe and there was a time when they were great cars (the 1st Lambda, Fulvia, Delta Integrale etc) - that Ypsilon is just a pathetic bastardization of a once-great marque.
I could not have said it better myself, there was a time when Lancia was something special. There was also a time where they dominated rally racing and were thought of as bad ass. Then again, what do I know?
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      11-29-2008, 03:56 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLCOMM View Post
FI = more efficient
FI = more power and torque
FI = cheaper
FI = lighter

Why all the hate?
FI = Lag
FI = heatsoak
FI = additional complexity (more systems to break)

BTW an FI iron block v8/I6 isnt going to be lighter then an Aluminum block NA v8.
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      11-29-2008, 03:57 PM   #153
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this is almost as big a deal as when porsche went to water cooled engines in the 996's from the air cooled 993's.

i'll bet the NA purists will be holding tight to the e90/92/93 M3's and they'll stay in high demand/value for a while even after the new ones come out.

Last edited by UdubBadger; 11-29-2008 at 04:18 PM. Reason: fixed model mistake
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      11-29-2008, 04:05 PM   #154
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this is almost as big a deal as when porsche went to water cooled engines in the 996's from the air cooled 993's.
Fixed.


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