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      11-28-2008, 12:12 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by lib View Post
How has BMW fucked up? We and our representatives keep voting for ever tougher regulations - BMW is doing everything it can to provide the power you love while still being allowed to sell cars in this country.
+10000


BMW will have their hands tied.... At some point you'll be driving some form of electric. Enjoy the present, the future will always be different.
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      11-28-2008, 12:13 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ajminn View Post
lets not forget people that f1 cars of the 80s had turbos and still had 10k+ redlines. it's still possible for bmw to produce beautiful engines even if we have to go the FI route.
That's true, but almost surely the N64 based engine in the X6 M will not fall into the high revving category. And, if the M5 continues with that same engine as the article claims, then I doubt it will rev over 7000 RPM either. And lets not forget - BMW has always claimed M cars will not use Valvetronic because it will not perform or function at high RPM. But clearly this new X6 will have it unless it is a complete rework of the N64 which I do doubt strongly (but would love to be wrong).

I think if the current M3 had an FI S54 with 8000+ RPM people would still have accepted it. But if it had an N54 with more boost and was basically nothing more than a tuned 335i motor, then people will be apt to wonder why we are paying a huge premium for a engine that can be duplicated with a $1500 ECU piggyback. Yes, that's only part of the M package, but it is certainly a big part.

Even back in the day of the E39 M5 and prior M cars when the engines were derived from regular series, at least they had their own unique displacement, and quite a few M specific parts to achieve more power. I am skeptical we will see that going forward with the new turbo motors.
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      11-28-2008, 12:20 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 1 View Post
if it puts a smile on my face in the straights and twisties then BMW has done there job.
A 335i will definitely not make you frown in this situation, or if it does you may want to check your pulse. It is a very fun car. But you step out, you get into an M3, and then you have no desire to go back.

Less M exclusivity. It starts with the engine, but what is next? Pretty soon they could be using the BMW Performance parts instead of developing M specific suspension, brakes and differential. Why not? The car will be a great performer as the 335i tuning crowd has proven over and over. So, why not just make the M3 a 3 series with all the BMW aftermarket parts already on it from the factory? Maybe just add the wide bodywork and fender vent to keep that shred of exclusivity, and call it a day. If we think it can't happen, then let the X6 M be a wakeup call. An X6 M? Now that is some pretty darn weak koolaid you are asking me to swallow, BMW.
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      11-28-2008, 01:10 AM   #92
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turbo engine for the M3 sounds awesome... i also think that they are afraid about what will happen when the RS5 comes out
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      11-28-2008, 01:48 AM   #93
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To whomever was saying all Ferraris ever built have NA engines. Not true. The 87 F40 and 89 F40 Le Mans are twin turbo V8s and they are faster on 0-60 than the current F430

2009 F430 Scuderia Spider 16M NA engine FI 4.3l 510bhp@8500rpm 346lbs.ft@5250rpm redline 8640rpm 0-60mph 3.7sec
2007 F430 Scuderia NA engine ESI 4.3l 510 bhp@8500 rpm 346 ft.lbs@5250rpm redline 8640rpm 0-60mph 3.5sec
1989 F40 Le Mans TT V8 2.9l 760 bhp@7500 rpm 0-60mph 3.1sec
1987 F40 TT V8 2.9l 478bhp@7000rpm 425ft.lbs@4500rpm redline 7750rpm 0-60mph 3.8sec
2006 F430 GT V8 NA FI 4.0l 445 bhp@6750rpm 495 ft.lbs@5200rpm 0-60mph 3.2sec

But yes there is a reason NA are the prefered choice for all recent Ferrari and that is drivability.

Here are other reasons of dislike:

- Sounds like "an angry aspirator"
- Reliability year after year
- No wideband torque
- Reduces usable power band of the engine
-The sudden surge of power can overwhelm the tires and result in loss of grip, which could lead to understeer/oversteer
- if throttle is applied in a turn, power may unexpectedly increase when the turbo spools up, which can cause excessive wheelspin.
-Engine complexity, more chances for failures

To be fair: advantages of Turbocharging
-more bhp and torque at smaller volumes
-better thermal efficiency. Also higher combustion temperature reduces NOxide compound for cleaner emission
-Fuel economy. Here is where a lot of people go wrong. Lower only when cruising because smaller engine volume but when driving hard consumption is about the same as NA engine of same bhp. Therefore a weak argument for an M car which should be driven hard.
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      11-28-2008, 01:48 AM   #94
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as long as it performs like an M, it will sell.

also, if it has that badge, it will sell.
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      11-28-2008, 02:57 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
I think the new m3 will be the same engine as the the current 335i with more boost.
You can't possibly really think this can you?

I am not too surprised by this announcement.

If they go back to an inline 6 that makes the engine much longer and negatively affects weight distribution in the car. Having already jumped to a V8 in this series I think it would be very tough for them to go back to an I-6.

Personally I prefer the feel, sound and throttle response of NA. I haven't driven the 335i much, but I did find barely any noticeable turbo lag. I'm sure if I had a chance to beat on one at the track it would become more apparent.

I do think the car, when it goes FI, will still have a totally unique engine specific to just the M3. I think BMW will do something both unique and special. Despite all of the displeasure shown here I'll bet it will still be a fantastic car and one most of us will lust after. I'll also go out on a limb and predict a weight reduction compared to the current M3 which will be a great thing.

The initial negative reaction to change really is human nature and more specifically it happens like clockwork on EVERY SINGLE M3 release.
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      11-28-2008, 03:15 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
To whomever was saying all Ferraris ever built have NA engines. Not true. The 87 F40 and 89 F40 Le Mans are twin turbo V8s and they are faster on 0-60 than the current F430

2009 F430 Scuderia Spider 16M NA engine FI 4.3l 510bhp@8500rpm 346lbs.ft@5250rpm redline 8640rpm 0-60mph 3.7sec
2007 F430 Scuderia NA engine ESI 4.3l 510 bhp@8500 rpm 346 ft.lbs@5250rpm redline 8640rpm 0-60mph 3.5sec
1989 F40 Le Mans TT V8 2.9l 760 bhp@7500 rpm 0-60mph 3.1sec
1987 F40 TT V8 2.9l 478bhp@7000rpm 425ft.lbs@4500rpm redline 7750rpm 0-60mph 3.8sec
2006 F430 GT V8 NA FI 4.0l 445 bhp@6750rpm 495 ft.lbs@5200rpm 0-60mph 3.2sec

But yes there is a reason NA are the prefered choice for all recent Ferrari and that is drivability.

Here are other reasons of dislike:

- Sounds like "an angry aspirator"
- Reliability year after year
- No wideband torque
- Reduces usable power band of the engine
-The sudden surge of power can overwhelm the tires and result in loss of grip, which could lead to understeer/oversteer
- if throttle is applied in a turn, power may unexpectedly increase when the turbo spools up, which can cause excessive wheelspin.
-Engine complexity, more chances for failures

To be fair: advantages of Turbocharging
-more bhp and torque at smaller volumes
-better thermal efficiency. Also higher combustion temperature reduces NOxide compound for cleaner emission
-Fuel economy. Here is where a lot of people go wrong. Lower only when cruising because smaller engine volume but when driving hard consumption is about the same as NA engine of same bhp. Therefore a weak argument for an M car which should be driven hard.
You forgot the 288 GTO.

Anyway, so they are going to turbos, so what? BMW had turbos back with the 2002, they do them well.

If they continue the innovation like they did with the X6 twin turbo V8 I'm all for it. Give me a high redline AND turbos. BMW's will be all around the most powerful, best handling, cars in their class.

I'm just glad I won't have to read another post about the M3 not having enough torque ever again.
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      11-28-2008, 03:19 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
I'm just glad I won't have to read another post about the M3 not having enough torque ever again.


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      11-28-2008, 03:27 AM   #98
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this is what - the third time this "story" has been posted here? as far as i'm concerned, it's all conjecture until OFFICAL announcements are made. bmw will not risk losing its ///M base by slapping a turbo on a decent, but otherwise ordinary V8 engine. everyone can venture a guess on what the engine will be, but know one really knows for sure.
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      11-28-2008, 03:29 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post

I'm just glad I won't have to read another post about the M3 not having enough torque ever again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell325 View Post
+10000000000000000
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      11-28-2008, 03:54 AM   #100
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Bmws are completely sold, all they care now is market instead of building cars that are truly wonderful like the E46 CSL. I really think going the turbo route is just so much easier and less costly to develope. Yet, wat they really should do is try to make this E92's wonderful V8 more torqey and better. Plz wtf is A M X6 piece of junk. REally the X6 is a piece of shit to start off with, pointless car .... I am so disappointed in bmw. I am moving on to C63 in the future.
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      11-28-2008, 04:07 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Mikewarlover View Post
Bmws are completely sold, all they care now is market instead of building cars that are truly wonderful like the E46 CSL. I really think going the turbo route is just so much easier and less costly to develope. Yet, wat they really should do is try to make this E92's wonderful V8 more torqey and better. Plz wtf is A M X6 piece of junk. REally the X6 is a piece of shit to start off with, pointless car .... I am so disappointed in bmw. I am moving on to C63 in the future.
I think we should put you in charge of BMW.

Your intelligence and command of the English language reminds me of the people in charge over at General Motors.

Good point on moving to the C63, it is not like Mercedes announced adding turbos to the 6.2 liter V8 or anything. What are you waiting for? Go get it now, they would love you over at MBworld.

Last edited by Sticky; 11-28-2008 at 05:12 AM.
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      11-28-2008, 04:32 AM   #102
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^LOL

I am glad so many of you are not going to buy FI M3's anymore. The M3 will finally be "rare" again.
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      11-28-2008, 05:09 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
A 335i will definitely not make you frown in this situation, or if it does you may want to check your pulse. It is a very fun car. But you step out, you get into an M3, and then you have no desire to go back.

Less M exclusivity. It starts with the engine, but what is next? Pretty soon they could be using the BMW Performance parts instead of developing M specific suspension, brakes and differential. Why not? The car will be a great performer as the 335i tuning crowd has proven over and over. So, why not just make the M3 a 3 series with all the BMW aftermarket parts already on it from the factory? Maybe just add the wide bodywork and fender vent to keep that shred of exclusivity, and call it a day. If we think it can't happen, then let the X6 M be a wakeup call. An X6 M? Now that is some pretty darn weak koolaid you are asking me to swallow, BMW.
i dont know if you were trying to make a point to me or something but that example really makes no sense, to me. BMW would never get rid of their M division. Just because they added SUVs to M does not mean they are willing to cut off performance cars to save money. (BTW did they ever officially say that this X6 will have an M badge? people are just speculating that they will be. if they have, i stand corrected) They may change the rules a bit in order to be able to continue to sell cars in the Americas and other countries who are demanding more efficient cars, but to say that they would consider just making a 3 series with bmw performance parts and no more M is going to far.

Why should fiat continue to make ferraris when they could put a bigger engine in their '500'? why should volkswagen continue to make porsches and buggattis when they could simply put a better suspension on their 'beetles'?
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      11-28-2008, 05:10 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by GnokGnik View Post
^LOL

I am glad so many of you are not going to buy FI M3's anymore. The M3 will finally be "rare" again.
+1
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      11-28-2008, 05:58 AM   #105
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Here we are again: Praises on the downfall of the ///M division (miss our "moaner in chief" posting in this thread yet).

What's the deal about. We now can enjoy a gret high revving NA V8 in the M3 and when the next iteration is due in 2014 (don't think BMW does change the engine of the current M3) there will be a FI engine that bears not much resemblence to current turbo engines. KERS will make most of the difference. Turbo lag? Gone. Besides that it will for sure be an engine revving higher than the N54 currently does. So what's all the fuss about?


Best regards, south
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      11-28-2008, 06:12 AM   #106
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Hate to say it but told you so...

I won't pull up my post of a year ago but when I stated the next M3 would get a variant of the twin turbo 8 in the X6 I was called every name in the book and wouldn't have surprised me if I was even almost banned for daring to utter such a suggestion...so to all you M3 experts who pissed on my post...refer to the title of this post.
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      11-28-2008, 06:31 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Here we are again: Praises on the downfall of the ///M division (miss our "moaner in chief" posting in this thread yet).
Funny how this statement made me think of only one person (T Bone). I take it that is who you were meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
What's the deal about. We now can enjoy a gret high revving NA V8 in the M3 and when the next iteration is due in 2014 (don't think BMW does change the engine of the current M3) there will be a FI engine that bears not much resemblence to current turbo engines. KERS will make most of the difference. Turbo lag? Gone. Besides that it will for sure be an engine revving higher than the N54 currently does. So what's all the fuss about?


Best regards, south
I like yourself south am looking forward to the possibiliy of improved economy, lower emissions, even less weight and a big old fat dose of torque. Why do so many people see the move to FI as such a backward step.
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      11-28-2008, 06:36 AM   #108
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13 months ago my badd

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...13#post1529613
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      11-28-2008, 06:43 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davo2003 View Post
I won't pull up my post of a year ago but when I stated the next M3 would get a variant of the twin turbo 8 in the X6 I was called every name in the book and wouldn't have surprised me if I was even almost banned for daring to utter such a suggestion...so to all you M3 experts who pissed on my post...refer to the title of this post.
Well, it's still unlikely that the M3 will get a Turbo V8. Inline 6 is the obvious choice.


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      11-28-2008, 06:54 AM   #110
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Talking Fired my research intern...here you go.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95116 12 months 2 weeks ago....

Heres just two of the responses...

Originally Posted by Davo2003
Yes, I know I have brought up a similar thread previously, but sounds like more fact than fiction day by day. As the horsepower and sales wars heat up, BMW may have their hand forced on this one.

How so? Because you came up with the idea, now it sounds like fact?

And yet another expert gives his 2 cents...

It goes against M philosophy in so many different ways. This issue has been hammered to death on this forum.

1) BMW doesn't touch their precious M engines until the 7 year recycle
2) The redline won't be high enough
3) As of now (lots of talk about M turning to DI), M cars are only high revving, low displacement naturally aspirated engines
*Not to mention that BMW will never, never share an engine between it's consumer line and M line, never.


Those are the main points I can think of. Lots of technicians on the forum can go into major detail explaining why a consumer DI engine simply can't meet M standards.
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