BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Strasse Wheels
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-25-2008, 07:04 PM   #45
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

The crank throw angle on the s65 is...?
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2008, 07:34 PM   #46
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

BMW M Mexico: Wouldn't this just be cheaper than the stroker and make far more power: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...3A1|240%3A1318
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2008, 08:27 PM   #47
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
BMW M Mexico: Wouldn't this just be cheaper than the stroker and make far more power: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...3A1|240%3A1318
Wow, that V10 is certainly attractive, but it would be neither more powerful, or less expensive and would be heavier. Reason I say this is simply because you pay 18 grand (or so) for the engine alone, to get that V10 in there i am sure would take much more than just $12 grand as a number of additional modifications must be made not to say the least of which is a tranny that fits. Second, the stock V10 engine makes more or less 500bhp (less power than the stoker V8 that makes well over 530bhp) and is a heavier machine. So to be blunt, donīt think you would be better off going that root. Now, a proper ECU modification could get a tad more power than 530 plus bhp and torque, but still in a heavier engine that would affect balance. If you want to go for 600 plus hp, then you would have to invest a hole hell of a lot of money. I did analyze this option!
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2008, 09:42 PM   #48
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Wow, that V10 is certainly attractive, but it would be neither more powerful, or less expensive and would be heavier. Reason I say this is simply because you pay 18 grand (or so) for the engine alone, to get that V10 in there i am sure would take much more than just $12 grand as a number of additional modifications must be made not to say the least of which is a tranny that fits. Second, the stock V10 engine makes more or less 500bhp (less power than the stoker V8 that makes well over 530bhp) and is a heavier machine. So to be blunt, donīt think you would be better off going that root. Now, a proper ECU modification could get a tad more power than 530 plus bhp and torque, but still in a heavier engine that would affect balance. If you want to go for 600 plus hp, then you would have to invest a hole hell of a lot of money. I did analyze this option!
Less power than the stroker (barely) but more torque with more headroom (stroker v10, right?)

The weight is definitely an issue, 40 kg difference.

That includes the transmission, which should be lighter than the DCT.

Anyway, I saw that, and it got me thinking...
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2008, 11:31 PM   #49
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Less power than the stroker (barely) but more torque with more headroom (stroker v10, right?)

The weight is definitely an issue, 40 kg difference.

That includes the transmission, which should be lighter than the DCT.

Anyway, I saw that, and it got me thinking...
V8 stroker produces both more hp and more torque than the stock V10, 34hp more than 500 is more than barely IMO but nevertheless not a huge amount, stoker V8 also produces more torque than the 383 pounds feet of the stock S85 V10. So, more hp, more torque and at least 50kg less due to the lighter nature of the V8 stroker relative to the stock V8. My car is not DCT so weight in that respect is not an issue. Besides even if it were, I would rather have the DCT over the SMG that is not possible yet since it does not fit the V10. I did analyze the V10 possibility but thought I would rather retain (or improve) the carīs balance and get enough NA power and lose some weight in other areas. At the end of the day I will have an M3 that is lighter by 200 lbs than the stock E92 M3 and produces more power than even the 911 GT2 at sea level with similar weight (and significantly more power than a 911 tt). That is my goal. Not possible to achieve this goal I think with the V10 shoed into the M3 chassis and also not going to be less expensive than going with the stoker kit. Still, if your willing to spend the extra $$$, V10 stoker is most certainly enticing and for sure lots of fun, just not what I want. I already own a 700 plus hp twin turbo Mercedes AMG in a slightly lighter chassis that the E92M3 than will most certainly kick any M stokerīs ass straight line and probably under most "bends" on highways and streets (since no one pushes cars to the limit generally on highways), just not on track that is what I want from this one.
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2008, 11:37 PM   #50
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
V8 stroker produces both more hp and more torque than the stock V10, 34hp more than 500 is more than barely IMO but nevertheless not a huge amount, stoker V8 also produces more torque than the 383 pounds feet of the stock S85 V10. So, more hp, more torque and at least 50kg less due to the lighter nature of the V8 stroker relative to the stock V8. My car is not DCT so weight in that respect is not an issue. Besides even if it were, I would rather have the DCT over the SMG that is not possible yet since it does not fit the V10. I did analyze the V10 possibility but thought I would rather retain (or improve) the carīs balance and get enough NA power and lose some weight in other areas. At the end of the day I will have an M3 that is lighter by 200 lbs than the stock E92 M3 and produces more power than even the 911 GT2 at sea level with similar weight (and significantly more power than a 911 tt). That is my goal. Not possible to achieve this goal I think with the V10 shoed into the M3 chassis and also not going to be less expensive than going with the stoker kit. Still, if your willing to spend the extra $$$, V10 stoker is most certainly enticing and for sure lots of fun, just not what I want. I already own a 700 plus hp twin turbo Mercedes AMG in a slightly lighter chassis that the E92M3 than will most certainly kick any M stokerīs ass straight line and probably under most "bends" on highways and streets (since no one pushes cars to the limit generally on highways), just not on track that is what I want from this one.
More HP and more torque on paper for now Can't wait to compare dyno's of the stroker vs. the stock v10.

I mentioned DCT as, well, I was thinking of my car, and also substituting 7 speed for 7 speed.

I would rather have less weight and more power, but the v10 is an interesting option at that particular price. The v8 stroker is clearly the better track option for the chassis.

The 997 GT2 dyno's 480 wheel on a mustang, I don't see the stroker even coming close. If it does though, sign me up.
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 12:19 AM   #51
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
More HP and more torque on paper for now Can't wait to compare dyno's of the stroker vs. the stock v10.

I mentioned DCT as, well, I was thinking of my car, and also substituting 7 speed for 7 speed.

I would rather have less weight and more power, but the v10 is an interesting option at that particular price. The v8 stroker is clearly the better track option for the chassis.

The 997 GT2 dyno's 480 wheel on a mustang, I don't see the stroker even coming close. If it does though, sign me up.
Porsche GT2 produces 530bhp as stated by Porsche!!! I believe them rather than someone elseīs numbers. The Stroker is 534!! Doesnīt come close? Check the facts. Now, the GT2 does produce a considerable amount of torque since its a trubocharged engine. There is no way there is only a 10% loss through the drive train so I donīt think that dyno you have seen is accurate. Also, the v10 is 18 grand just for the part, shoing it in there plus other components will be more than that amount.
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 01:37 AM   #52
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Porsche GT2 produces 530bhp as stated by Porsche!!! I believe them rather than someone elseīs numbers. The Stroker is 534!! Doesnīt come close? Check the facts. Now, the GT2 does produce a considerable amount of torque since its a trubocharged engine. There is no way there is only a 10% loss through the drive train so I donīt think that dyno you have seen is accurate. Also, the v10 is 18 grand just for the part, shoing it in there plus other components will be more than that amount.
Yep, the GT2 produces 530 hp at the crank as stated by Porsche. The stroker produces 534 hp at the crank as stated by RDsport.

Of course losses aren't only 10%, the figure is obviously underrated. Many cars are underrated and produce more power than manufacturers state on paper, the 335 even falls into this category.

The GT2 is underrated just like the GT3 is underrated which dyno's 380 wheel.

The dyno I have for the 997 GT2 is very accurate, from AWE-Tuning, one of the most respected in the tuner business.

Crank figures or stated figures don't mean anything, the stroker will not dyno the same as a 997 GT2, I wish it could though.

Absolutely, 18 grand just for the engine and transmissions, sounds like a good deal for those parts. Just brainstorming

In case you might be interested in the 997 GT2 and AWE's work on it, they are now over 580 wheel with just the usual bolt on's: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...er-2008-a.html

Here is the chart just for fun, I think it is VERY optimistic for the stroker to get near something like a 997 GT2, I think 450 wheel on a mustang would be an incredible achievement for RDsport:

Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 03:12 AM   #53
nd54
Captain
United_States
33
Rep
649
Posts

 
Drives: RDSport RS 46
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (6)

Wow, this sure got off topic.
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 10:31 AM   #54
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Yep, the GT2 produces 530 hp at the crank as stated by Porsche. The stroker produces 534 hp at the crank as stated by RDsport.

Of course losses aren't only 10%, the figure is obviously underrated. Many cars are underrated and produce more power than manufacturers state on paper, the 335 even falls into this category.

The GT2 is underrated just like the GT3 is underrated which dyno's 380 wheel.

The dyno I have for the 997 GT2 is very accurate, from AWE-Tuning, one of the most respected in the tuner business.

Crank figures or stated figures don't mean anything, the stroker will not dyno the same as a 997 GT2, I wish it could though.

Absolutely, 18 grand just for the engine and transmissions, sounds like a good deal for those parts. Just brainstorming

In case you might be interested in the 997 GT2 and AWE's work on it, they are now over 580 wheel with just the usual bolt on's: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...er-2008-a.html

Here is the chart just for fun, I think it is VERY optimistic for the stroker to get near something like a 997 GT2, I think 450 wheel on a mustang would be an incredible achievement for RDsport:

Dynos can be tricked or fumbled with!! I posted one that shows 466bhp from an ECU reflash for the M3. I donīt believe it!!! Hahaha! Besides, Porsche understates but audi, AMG and BMW M are precise? Could be, but doubt it. And, I should also say I have a Porsche and no one at the dealer, Tech Art or what have you have ever stated it produces more power than published. But whatever the case, I have no further arguments, to each his own Sticky. Go for the V10 and stock GT2 stated hp figure is wrong and much higher than the stoker.
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 07:42 PM   #55
serven7
Second Lieutenant
serven7's Avatar
5
Rep
293
Posts

 
Drives: RS 46 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Honolulu/Phoenix

iTrader: (1)

How did this turn into RD strokers and GT2s. This Thread was about Dinan
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 09:14 PM   #56
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by serven7 View Post
How did this turn into RD strokers and GT2s. This Thread was about Dinan
Dinan obviously is boring and we enjoy robust, multi-faceted discussions
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 09:16 PM   #57
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Dynos can be tricked or fumbled with!! I posted one that shows 466bhp from an ECU reflash for the M3. I donīt believe it!!! Hahaha! Besides, Porsche understates but audi, AMG and BMW M are precise? Could be, but doubt it. And, I should also say I have a Porsche and no one at the dealer, Tech Art or what have you have ever stated it produces more power than published. But whatever the case, I have no further arguments, to each his own Sticky. Go for the V10 and stock GT2 stated hp figure is wrong and much higher than the stoker.
I won't do something like the V10, but someone might be interested and it is fun to talk about things like that.

Dinan is going to do it but swapping the V10 in takes something away from the M3 IMO. It is not a bad way to go if someone wants maximum power in a naturally aspirated form, as in swapping in a stroker V10.

Dyno's can be manipulated to an extent, but that is why there are certain tuners we trust. Anyway, can't wait to see your project come along (and I am disappointed RDsport is gone).

As far as the dyno for your chip, I don't know anything about that particular dyno and was not familiar with it at all and have not seen major tuners use it. No point of reference for me, I'm sure the company knows what they were doing though.
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 09:26 PM   #58
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Granted it's been many years since we did this...but whenever we placed a bone stock motor on the (motor) dyno to get a baseline, they always produced the exact horsepower at the exact RPM the manufacturer claimed. We saw this with quite a few motors. These days, now that everybody is lawsuit happy, I'd be more inclined to think the published numbers are conservative.
It depends on the application. High end forced induction motors tend to be a bit underrated. BMW M motors are usually spot on, the S65 and S85 are good examples. The 335 is a bit underrated, no surprise, it would have upset E46 M3 owners (the peak dyno HP is virtually a wash).

The GT3 is underrated, along with the GT2, Carrera GT, and Ford GT.

So, just depends, the 03 cobra was underrated big time as well. Some cars are overrated, the RX8 being overrated to the point Mazda had to revise the hp rating on it due to owners asking what was up.
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2008, 10:12 PM   #59
serven7
Second Lieutenant
serven7's Avatar
5
Rep
293
Posts

 
Drives: RS 46 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Honolulu/Phoenix

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Dinan obviously is boring and we enjoy robust, multi-faceted discussions
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2008, 10:27 AM   #60
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Iīve owned and own Porsches and have friends that own them. I know of none of these that have been understated and some of these have been dynod. I also took the liberty of speaking with TechArt yesterday for some other matters and asked them the same. They have a really nice 700bhp GT2 by the way. They say it is not understated. I also recall a magazine that tested all these results some time ago, it turned out that most European cars produced a bit less hp than stated (including Porsche) and it was the american corvette that turned out to be understated but in those cases it was 3 or 4bhp, nothing major. I donīt think Prosche would understate a car by 20 or 30 bhp, law suits can also easily go both ways (understate a car, crash, and your in deep dodo). But, hey, at the end of the day I suppose we will all believe what we want. My personal belief is that Porsche does not understate hp, but thatīs just me and is why I say to each his own. So, whatever the case, the RDSport stroker will produce more hp in an aspirated fashion at sea level than will the "stated" GT2 hp and with the weight reduction I have put it through, just a tad heavier.
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2008, 04:55 PM   #61
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
Iīve owned and own Porsches and have friends that own them. I know of none of these that have been understated and some of these have been dynod. I also took the liberty of speaking with TechArt yesterday for some other matters and asked them the same. They have a really nice 700bhp GT2 by the way. They say it is not understated. I also recall a magazine that tested all these results some time ago, it turned out that most European cars produced a bit less hp than stated (including Porsche) and it was the american corvette that turned out to be understated but in those cases it was 3 or 4bhp, nothing major. I donīt think Prosche would understate a car by 20 or 30 bhp, law suits can also easily go both ways (understate a car, crash, and your in deep dodo). But, hey, at the end of the day I suppose we will all believe what we want. My personal belief is that Porsche does not understate hp, but thatīs just me and is why I say to each his own. So, whatever the case, the RDSport stroker will produce more hp in an aspirated fashion at sea level than will the "stated" GT2 hp and with the weight reduction I have put it through, just a tad heavier.
Ok, I own porsches as well and have friends that own them. Techart is hardly someone I would put much faith in. Talk to the serious tuners, Protomotive, EVOMS, and AWE. The GT2 is underrated and so is the GT3. 415 hp @ the crank yet it dynos 380 wheel? The Carrera S is at 385 hp and dyno's 330 wheel on the same dyno, huh? Doesn't really add up does it?

The car is rated at 530 hp at the crank yet turns 128 mph trap speeds. A gallardo is rated at 520 hp at the crank yet does 118 mph trap speeds. Crank ratings don't matter, different crank motors at 500 hp won't all put the same power to the ground and won't perform the same. They can claim any number they want.

I spend a lot of time researching cars, it isn't a belief, it is a fact that Porsche underrates certain cars.

The dyno database on dragtimes has many dynos to serve as a point of reference. How is a stock 997 GT3 putting down 386 wheel: http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche--GT3-Dyno-Sheets.html

Are the losses 7% (of course not) or is it underrated?

I won't go into other manufacturers and vehicles they have produced that put down more power than advertised as I guess we are talking about 997 GT2 performance from the stroker. This is a large leap, and 530 claimed horses from RDsport are not going to be the same as the GT's claimed 530 horses.
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2008, 07:07 PM   #62
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Ok, I own porsches as well and have friends that own them. Techart is hardly someone I would put much faith in. Talk to the serious tuners, Protomotive, EVOMS, and AWE. The GT2 is underrated and so is the GT3. 415 hp @ the crank yet it dynos 380 wheel? The Carrera S is at 385 hp and dyno's 330 wheel on the same dyno, huh? Doesn't really add up does it?

The car is rated at 530 hp at the crank yet turns 128 mph trap speeds. A gallardo is rated at 520 hp at the crank yet does 118 mph trap speeds. Crank ratings don't matter, different crank motors at 500 hp won't all put the same power to the ground and won't perform the same. They can claim any number they want.

I spend a lot of time researching cars, it isn't a belief, it is a fact that Porsche underrates certain cars.

The dyno database on dragtimes has many dynos to serve as a point of reference. How is a stock 997 GT3 putting down 386 wheel: http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche--GT3-Dyno-Sheets.html

Are the losses 7% (of course not) or is it underrated?

I won't go into other manufacturers and vehicles they have produced that put down more power than advertised as I guess we are talking about 997 GT2 performance from the stroker. This is a large leap, and 530 claimed horses from RDsport are not going to be the same as the GT's claimed 530 horses.
OK Sticky, no problem, you win!! hahaha!! I agree GT2 is def more powerful, stated figures on Porsche mean nothing and RDSport figures are def overstated. Agreed. So, on with the show and lets focus on strokers!
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2008, 07:50 PM   #63
Sticky
Banned
United_States
30
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
OK Sticky, no problem, you win!! hahaha!! I agree GT2 is def more powerful, stated figures on Porsche mean nothing and RDSport figures are def overstated. Agreed. So, on with the show and lets focus on strokers!
I agree, honestly, I don't know if RDsport is overstated or not. I would assume they are spot on. Lets hope they are understated and that the stroker produces amazing results.
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2008, 11:51 AM   #64
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
KonigsTiger's Avatar
66
Rep
4,398
Posts

 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
I agree, honestly, I don't know if RDsport is overstated or not. I would assume they are spot on. Lets hope they are understated and that the stroker produces amazing results.
RDSport numbers are conservative as are Dinan.
__________________
==================================================
Appreciate 0
      12-03-2008, 09:02 PM   #65
unique
SiDeWaYz
14
Rep
477
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: WillowSprings Race Track

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by serven7 View Post
A day late and a buck short, Dinan is far behind the power curve. All the above listed have been done.
who has done a stroker, please do not say rdsport, i will shoot myself.

a buck short... agreed

but as far as a stroker none of the rd sport cars are completed.
Appreciate 0
      12-03-2008, 09:06 PM   #66
unique
SiDeWaYz
14
Rep
477
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: WillowSprings Race Track

iTrader: (0)

whoa i just read the thread...

guys how are you going to tell me that the rd sport kit will produce 530bhp.. if it does than that really nice.

but i just hate when companies talk about hp gains when they have not yet even finished yet.

wtf are you guys going to do if it produces 480 490. everything is complete speculation, let them finish it first. I will be happy if they just finish it, to be talking about some hp numbers are complete nonsense at this stage
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:52 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST