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      09-27-2008, 04:47 PM   #89
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There is no comparson, I did the school as well down at Barber Motor Speedways, what fun.

I had both a 996 and a 997 twin turbo, you cannot put them in the same category no matter which magazine article you read. The M3 is not in the same class,IMHO.


They the 997 tt are OVER PRICED, but the good thing was, when I traded my 997 in on the new M3 I paid cash for the BMW, Bought my son a (NEW) Honda Civic SI, and paid for his first year of collage all in one fell swoop.

What does that tell you? Little better then a 49% residual after 36 months!

Bottom line, My son is more important then 4 wheels and a gas tank!
The 997tt may be over-priced, but a 49% residual after 36 months? I am assuming that is the lease buy out? I know that since the car's arrival two years ago, MY2007's are still bringing between $115-$120k. Not as bad as expected, considering that the 2007, well equipped, had an MSRP of $128k-$130k.
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      09-27-2008, 05:16 PM   #90
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The 2009 997S is not $45,255 more than a comparably equipped 2009 E92 M3.
The difference is more like $30,000-$32,000, dependent on whether the car has PDK or DKG, respectively. The additional cost of Porsche's dual clutch over BMW's may be worthy as many testers consider it a better transmission. (Whether it is or not is in the hand of the beholder.)

i.e. I specced out a very highly optioned 997 C2S and it's MSRP was roughly $105,000. I could have easily dropped the sticker to less than $100k and still have similar options as the M. It's still a lot of dough, but it's not over $45k.
Devo, did you order you car? When is it showing up? You know I'm driving down there the day you get it to check it out!
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      09-27-2008, 05:51 PM   #91
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Devo, did you order you car? When is it showing up? You know I'm driving down there the day you get it to check it out!
Talk about commitment phobia! I haven't yet ordered the 997.2. If I go that route I won't order it until after Nov. 8th. That is when the Sport Exhaust will be available. In the interim, I have positioned myself on my dealer's list for a MY2010 997.2 turbo (#1 slot) and MY2010 997.2 GT3 (#2 slot). I have the first right of refusal in each of those respsective positions.

Of course, much will depend on what improvements these cars get. I am looking for the SPASM (Sport Suspension) option on the turbo- which is purely speculative on my part. PAG did it with the 996tt and I believe they now want to recapture the title. I also expect 20, hopefully 30 more ponies (510) and all of the 997.2 engine attributes, 12lbs less, slung lower in the chassis, DI for better response and a broader mid-range. All of this with a reasonable 3% price hike.

I would go GT3 as it will likely be more of a focused high strung beast than it already is (rumored to get 430-440hp and a host of very light weight internal engine components for very fast revs), but being in the #2 slot, is wishful thinking. Of course, my friend is no. 1 and he's really waiting for a GT3RS, so he may pass on a GT3.

If my I am let down by enough factors in both scenarios, then I will get the 997.2 C2S. Of course, I may not have enough info until early spring/summer to even make a decision.

So, no I don't have my car yet!

But, I do look forward to meeting up.
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      09-27-2008, 05:51 PM   #92
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No. The 911 just doesn't move me. I just can't get into them.
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      09-27-2008, 07:00 PM   #93
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The only Porsche I would have is a 997 turbo or better. 620NM of those dirty torques has got to hurt. It's a serious bit of kit. They're far too expensive though when compared with an M3 and a bit too head turn-aroundey. They're in a different league, a different niche of automotive ability.

The M3 is an amazing car - let's not forget that... (although it could do with more torque) It can be relaxed and civilised - easily toot around town with only those in the know batting an eyelid at its cheeky beef. Do you really need any more than the offerings of an M3 for the real life driving on the roads? Not in the UK.

I still think that V8 is an engine from heaven. It's quiet when your right foot is having a lighter day, and still manages to transform itself into the sound of absolute carnage when you put your foot down.

So taking comparible price into consideration - what would you do? Own the best car that BMW make or shell out on a second hand low spec non turbo Porsche?

I know what I'd do - every time.
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      09-27-2008, 08:44 PM   #94
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Talk about commitment phobia! I haven't yet ordered the 997.2. If I go that route I won't order it until after Nov. 8th. That is when the Sport Exhaust will be available. In the interim, I have positioned myself on my dealer's list for a MY2010 997.2 turbo (#1 slot) and MY2010 997.2 GT3 (#2 slot). I have the first right of refusal in each of those respsective positions.

Of course, much will depend on what improvements these cars get. I am looking for the SPASM (Sport Suspension) option on the turbo- which is purely speculative on my part. PAG did it with the 996tt and I believe they now want to recapture the title. I also expect 20, hopefully 30 more ponies (510) and all of the 997.2 engine attributes, 12lbs less, slung lower in the chassis, DI for better response and a broader mid-range. All of this with a reasonable 3% price hike.

I would go GT3 as it will likely be more of a focused high strung beast than it already is (rumored to get 430-440hp and a host of very light weight internal engine components for very fast revs), but being in the #2 slot, is wishful thinking. Of course, my friend is no. 1 and he's really waiting for a GT3RS, so he may pass on a GT3.

If my I am let down by enough factors in both scenarios, then I will get the 997.2 C2S. Of course, I may not have enough info until early spring/summer to even make a decision.

So, no I don't have my car yet!

But, I do look forward to meeting up.
Wow, you keep on raising the stakes. You would have to track the GT3 if you got one, but I don't know about tracking a $100k+ car. Either way, looking forward to meeting up at some point, and checking out whatever you end up with.
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      09-27-2008, 11:49 PM   #95
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I would not acquire a 911 (even the turbo) and I definitely can afford it

I have driven (at least 6 times) the 911 as well as the turbo, all I can say despite longing and drooling for one since my university days, that it is not for me. It was and still is hard, uncomfortable and requires some skill to drive it and control it properly. I am also aware of quite a few 911 fans with persistent back ache and pain after driving these.
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      09-28-2008, 06:44 AM   #96
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If I could afford a new 911, I'd most likely opt for an Aston Martin V8. Don't care if it's slower, the AM just looks sexy as hell!!!
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      09-28-2008, 08:10 AM   #97
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Wow, you keep on raising the stakes. You would have to track the GT3 if you got one, but I don't know about tracking a $100k+ car. Either way, looking forward to meeting up at some point, and checking out whatever you end up with.
Have you been to the track with your M since we last talked?
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      09-28-2008, 10:10 AM   #98
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Have you been to the track with your M since we last talked?
Yes, I had two more sessions after that. The same story. The car is very well balanced and becomes a different beast on the track, but eats front tires and melts stock pads--at least on NHMS which has a couple of downhill braking zones and not a very long straight. There was a 993 911 in my last session. Nimble car surely, but still no match for the M! And I am going for two more days next weekend after installing track pads. Then I'll do an "intensive driving school" on the 17th. 4 hours of track time on a single day. That'll be interesting. I'll try to tape that one...
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      09-28-2008, 10:37 AM   #99
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The 2009 997S is not $45,255 more than a comparably equipped 2009 E92 M3.
The difference is more like $30,000-$32,000, dependent on whether the car has PDK or DKG, respectively. The additional cost of Porsche's dual clutch over BMW's may be worthy as many testers consider it a better transmission. (Whether it is or not is in the hand of the beholder.)

i.e. I specced out a very highly optioned 997 C2S and it's MSRP was roughly $105,000. I could have easily dropped the sticker to less than $100k and still have similar options as the M. It's still a lot of dough, but it's not over $45k.
It is in Canada as the spead betwwen a C2s and M3 is much larger up here than in the states.To be in the same range with the duties & current exchange rate,it would have to a 06 to be in the same pricing area.
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      09-28-2008, 10:38 AM   #100
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Yes, I had two more sessions after that. The same story. The car is very well balanced and becomes a different beast on the track, but eats front tires and melts stock pads--at least on NHMS which has a couple of downhill braking zones and not a very long straight. There was a 993 911 in my last session. Nimble car surely, but still no match for the M! And I am going for two more days next weekend after installing track pads. Then I'll do an "intensive driving school" on the 17th. 4 hours of track time on a single day. That'll be interesting. I'll try to tape that one...

Sounds like some of your fears about tracking a $70k car have disappeared. I imagine the learning curve is very high and that you are becoming much more confident.

The pads should cure a lot of the braking issues. Just be careful they don't eat the rotors. You might want to consider changing the brake fluid. Have you considered dedicated track wheels/tires yet?
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      09-28-2008, 10:40 AM   #101
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It is in Canada as the spead betwwen a C2s and M3 is much larger up here than in the states.To be in the same range with the duties & current exchange rate,it would have to a 06 to be in the same pricing area.

Sorry, I didn't look at your location. That's quite a difference. I love Porsches, but I would have to agree that $45k more is too much.
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      09-28-2008, 10:49 AM   #102
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Sounds like some of your fears about tracking a $70k car have disappeared. I imagine the learning curve is very high and that you are becoming much more confident.

The pads should cure a lot of the braking issues. Just be careful they don't eat the rotors. You might want to consider changing the brake fluid. Have you considred dedicated track wheels mounted with track tires?
I've done fluid and that helps. It used to boil and splash around.

I still have concerns about tracking a $70k car. Let's face it, if you push it, anything can happen on the track. But I've thought long and hard about it, and decided that is what I want to do. If something happens, that'll bite, but at least it is an informed decision. But I am considering purchasing track insurance just in case. It's about $300 per event (covers both days for next weekend).

I am definitely more comfortable with the car on the track. It can get a bit twitchy at those downhill breaking zones, and they don't really have run-off areas, but I haven't ran into trouble so far.

I am still torn about getting a dedicated track car. E46 M3s with 70k miles are beginning to sell for less than $20k. Stripping and caging one would make a good winter project. If I don't go with that, I'll get track wheels for the the E92.
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      09-28-2008, 12:15 PM   #103
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people buy what they can afford.

people buy what they can afford.

And by that i dont mean people who possess enough money to buy a 911 always buy one, because they cant AFFORD to buy one.

the person who can afford to buy a 911 is the same person that would concider stretching their budget towards an aston martin or ferrari before deciding a 911 would be more realistic.

I love the M3 just like all/most of you do. but if i heard from someone that they had 500k worth of "car spending money" and they would still get the M3, i honestly wouldnt belive them.

This doesnt mean some people dont preffer the M3 over the 911, but people are by far the minority.
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      09-28-2008, 12:20 PM   #104
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people buy what they can afford.

And by that i dont mean people who possess enough money to buy a 911 always buy one, because they cant AFFORD to buy one.

the person who can afford to buy a 911 is the same person that would concider stretching their budget towards an aston martin or ferrari before deciding a 911 would be more realistic.

I love the M3 just like all/most of you do. but if i heard from someone that they had 500k worth of "car spending money" and they would still get the M3, i honestly wouldnt belive them.

This doesnt mean some people dont preffer the M3 over the 911, but people are by far the minority.

Very true.
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      09-28-2008, 07:16 PM   #105
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...I am still torn about getting a dedicated track car. E46 M3s with 70k miles are beginning to sell for less than $20k. Stripping and caging one would make a good winter project. If I don't go with that, I'll get track wheels for the the E92.
You might want to consider a 325. A terrific platform to start with (lightweight engine and all that), and Will Turner is a hop, skip and jump up the road. Those guys have the definitive knowledge pool about such cars, and for relatively short money you could have a genuine track star - much more fun than the relatively heavy M3. Parts are cheaper, too.

Who knows, Will may have an E46 ex-track car around.

Bruce

PS - The most fun track car I ever had was my '98 ACR Neon, mostly due to its size and weight. Plus it was as much a purpose-built track car as one might wish for. Sheer speed is secondary.
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      09-28-2008, 07:31 PM   #106
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You might want to consider a 325. A terrific platform to start with (lightweight engine and all that), and Will Turner is a hop, skip and jump up the road. Those guys have the definitive knowledge pool about such cars, and for relatively short money you could have a genuine track star - much more fun than the relatively heavy M3. Parts are cheaper, too.

Who knows, Will may have an E46 ex-track car around.
Damn Bruce you are about 6 months too late; I sold my 325 last Spring! The steering feel was not really there though for the track, but I guess that can be fixed/modified.

I'll stop by Turner to pick up the track pads sometime this week. I'll ask for advice on a dedicated track car.
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      09-28-2008, 08:27 PM   #107
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I really like Porsche... they are special car, the dealerships are special places, and most Porsche drivers are great auto freaks.

That being said, most of the Porsche's I would actually buy are a little small for my taste. I am 6-3 and never found the 911 to be enough car for me. But they are magnificent machines for sure!

Jason
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      10-07-2008, 01:57 AM   #108
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I've been watching this thread with interest since it started.

I had five cars on my shortlist when looking for a new car in January.
- M3
- Vantage
- 911
- M6
- XKR

I finished up with the M3 having lusted after the 911 or Vantage after the wife intervened, less about affording and more about justifying A$250k (about US$200k at the time) on a car (Aussie cars are not cheap!). So I bought the cheapest. I am a cash buyer (no leverage on a depreciating asset).

I've been kicking myself for not standing up to her ever since and notwithstanding recent financial wobbles stepped into the Porsche dealer last week...

They priced it up for me and I can easily afford the trade-in (cash in my chequing account afford) and they have a new car coming in with very close to the spec that I want in a couple of months (2S, PDK, loaded). But as he started to show me the upgrades to the new car and I asked some questions it became increasingly clear that I wasn't convinced any more. I was paying a big premium for a smaller and less practical car, similar performance and by the time I optioned for close to my M3 (specced with everything apart from the ski bag - Aussie cars come fully loaded by default) I was adding a huge amout of extra cost (OK, so I could live without TV and a few other things). I'm still going to test the PDK in the next couple of weeks out of interest but can't see it convincing me.

So I think I've decided to instead wait for financial armageddon to get done with and get something REALLY special in '09 (probably a Lambo and a 135i for daily driver or keep the M3). Despite having had 911 pics on my wall since age five I just couldn't make the numbers work, in the end it felt like blowing US$60k for a badge.

Maybe if I was in the US (or even the UK!) so smaller numbers it might be different but I'm not sure.
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      10-07-2008, 11:01 AM   #109
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The 997tt may be over-priced, but a 49% residual after 36 months? I am assuming that is the lease buy out? I know that since the car's arrival two years ago, MY2007's are still bringing between $115-$120k. Not as bad as expected, considering that the 2007, well equipped, had an MSRP of $128k-$130k.
Hi Devo, you are exactly right. I had one of the first 997 TT to come off the line. I drove the car for 18 months and had 12k miles on it when I traded it in for the M3.

You are right on in respect to what the retail prices the car should bring, however not quite what a dealer would give you in trade.

I knew what my cost for the M3 was and therefore only interested how much the dealer was willing to give me for the 997.

I traded for a little less then what you suggested as a price and it is a good thing I did it almost 4 months ago.


The BMW dealer sold it to their sister company out of state and as luck would have it I happened to be at the sister dealership a few weeks ago.Guess what I saw? My 997 just sitting there still unsold after 4 months. Playing stupid I asked a sales person what they were asking for the car and he quoted me $10,000 more then they gave me in trade.. When I told him that was my car he said they would take $2000 less then they gave me in trade...

Bottom Line I am glad I traded the car when I did.

Edit, Hey Devo I was referring to the M3 not for the 997TT for the 49% residual as per BMW's new lease rates

Scott

Last edited by Captain Scott; 10-07-2008 at 01:17 PM.
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      10-08-2008, 01:01 AM   #110
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I am selling my M for a 997TT


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