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View Poll Results: Auto only, what's your pick? M3 or C63?
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      09-21-2008, 09:12 PM   #23
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I totally disagree, the DCT does not feel like any automatic I have driven. If you don't notice a difference then in my opinion you are not "tuned" to the car. With DCT you can feel the clutch engage and disengage. With DCT once in motion the transmission does not slip like in a automatic. No automatic provides engine braking while coasting like DCT (because most automatics will disengage the torque converter under coasting).

All reasons why DCT is better than an automatic IMHO.

I'm not sure what bugs you're talking about, but the only one my car has is the track downshifting issue, which is going to be fixed in two weeks with a software update. I have no issues on the street.

I have to ask if you've driven DCT for more than 10 miles because there is a significant difference. The only similarities between an automatic and DCT is the lack of a clutch pedal.
Good points all - and no, I have never driven the M3 auto. Should've just said they are in fact making an auto M3 right now, though it's a new to BMW design.

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      09-21-2008, 09:16 PM   #24
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Absolutely not. You can really tell this thing has a regular clutch and no torque converter. Have you actually driven the M-DCT?
Nope - and as just mentioned above, I stand corrected.

I just brought up the fact that BMW does in fact supply an automatic again in the M3, though it's obviously of a relatively new design.
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      09-22-2008, 12:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Nope - and as just mentioned above, I stand corrected.

I just brought up the fact that BMW does in fact supply an automatic again in the M3, though it's obviously of a relatively new design.
Except it is not called an automatic, not by BMW or by the vast majority of DCT owners. I would say the majority of those who call the DCT an automatic do not understand the difference and/or don't car about the difference to include the advantages of DCT over an automatic.

For me, I've used the D mode probably less than 30 miles of the 6000 I've put on my car so far.
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      09-22-2008, 07:25 PM   #26
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Except it is not called an automatic, not by BMW or by the vast majority of DCT owners. I would say the majority of those who call the DCT an automatic do not understand the difference and/or don't car about the difference to include the advantages of DCT over an automatic.

For me, I've used the D mode probably less than 30 miles of the 6000 I've put on my car so far.
As with VAG (and now Porsche), BMW calls their transmission something other than the norm because it's a (relatively) new design, and they wish to differentiate. They'd be crazy if they didn't.

When GM introduced the first mass production automatic, they called it a "Hydra-Matic", and for decades, people said hydramatic when they referred to anyone's automatic, no matter the name. Other manufacturers thought up names for their own automatics (i.e. - Fordomatic, Flightomatic, Torqueflite, Powerglide, Powerflite, etc.), but it took a couple of decades for the "hydramatic" term to drop from the everyday lexicon.

Many VAG, BMW (and now Porsche) owners don't refer to their brandy-new transmissions as automatics for several reasons:

1. The manufacturer calls out and publicizes new designs, as do car salesman, etc.

2. A minor touch of OCD.

3. Fear of scrotum shrinkage.

In the fullness of time, I believe these double-clutch designs will continue to proliferate, and will inevitably become known as automatics (all this assuming the internal combustion engine has a fairly long future).

Then, maybe someone will come up with a new type of automatic, and will definitely call it something else.

I'm perfectly content with you and anyone else calling the M-DCT whatever you like, but not content with M-DCT cops policing what others (including me) call this transmission.

See 2 and 3, above.

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      09-22-2008, 08:38 PM   #27
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You actually made my point in a round-about way. All of these automatic transmissions (Fordomatic, Flightomatic, Torqueflite, Powerglide, Powerflite, etc.) work in a nearly identical manner, and are not near as efficient in transferring the engine power to the wheels as and manual transmission or as DCT. Manuals, SMG and DCT all have gear on gear contact to transfer the power to the rear wheels thus transferring a greater percentage of power to the drive wheels. SMG and DCT are internally much more similar to a MT than any automatic.

IMHO, most of those that call SMG or DCT an automatic are ignorant to the differences in technology and aren't true M3 or car enthusiasts.
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      09-22-2008, 10:09 PM   #28
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You actually made my point in a round-about way. All of these automatic transmissions (Fordomatic, Flightomatic, Torqueflite, Powerglide, Powerflite, etc.) work in a nearly identical manner, and are not near as efficient in transferring the engine power to the wheels as and manual transmission or as DCT. Manuals, SMG and DCT all have gear on gear contact to transfer the power to the rear wheels thus transferring a greater percentage of power to the drive wheels. SMG and DCT are internally much more similar to a MT than any automatic.
So with you it's number two.

How about the Mercedes SL 7-speed with no torque converter. Or the IS-F 8-speed that locks up the top 7 in sport mode.

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Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
IMHO, most of those that call SMG or DCT an automatic are ignorant to the differences in technology and aren't true M3 or car enthusiasts.
First off, you mean that as some sort of accusation, which is ridiculous. A '95 and an '04 have graced our garages, and I'm not an M3 enthusiast. Whatever works best for me when it's time to buy or lease something, and BMW either competes or not - and I don't give a damn. We've also had a couple of Vettes, and I've never been a Vette guy either.

Secondly, you have a hopelessly myopic view of what a car enthusiast is. As an example, my neighbor traded his Jag XK-R on a CLS500, which then hit the road in favor of a CTS. Of those three, he really loves the CTS as opposed to the Jag (kind of liked it) and the Merc (hated it). He's been a car nut for pretty much all his life, and doesn't know a damned thing about cars except for what he likes. He's as much of a car nut as anybody.

My wife is a car enthusiast who also doesn't know anything about cars except for what she likes. Right now she still really loves her '05 Pilot, compared to either a new Pilot, a GL450 or an Acadia (others she's recently checked out).

Fine by me. I like it too.

I think the Honda Fit and the Dodge Cummins diesel pickup are exceedingly cool vehicles that I'd really like to own - and so far I prefer the single 1 series I drove to either of the new M3s I've driven. I'm impressed by the M3, but would rather actually own a Fit, the aforementioned Dodge, or a 1 series. I also know that the M-DCT is an automatic, by virtue of having two pedals and no-shift driving. Does all this mean I'm not an enthusiast?

I applaud the passion of anybody who loves all things BMW (or any other Marque) over everything else out there, but abhor their judgement.

Bruce
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      09-22-2008, 11:00 PM   #29
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......
I'm impressed by the M3, but would rather actually own a Fit, the aforementioned Dodge, or a 1 series. I also know that the M-DCT is an automatic, by virtue of having two pedals and no-shift driving. Does all this mean I'm not an enthusiast?

I applaud the passion of anybody who loves all things BMW (or any other Marque) over everything else out there, but abhor their judgement.

Bruce
I think you should buy an automatic Fit.
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      09-22-2008, 11:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
So with you it's number two.

How about the Mercedes SL 7-speed with no torque converter. Or the IS-F 8-speed that locks up the top 7 in sport mode.



First off, you mean that as some sort of accusation, which is ridiculous. A '95 and an '04 have graced our garages, and I'm not an M3 enthusiast. Whatever works best for me when it's time to buy or lease something, and BMW either competes or not - and I don't give a damn. We've also had a couple of Vettes, and I've never been a Vette guy either.

Secondly, you have a hopelessly myopic view of what a car enthusiast is. As an example, my neighbor traded his Jag XK-R on a CLS500, which then hit the road in favor of a CTS. Of those three, he really loves the CTS as opposed to the Jag (kind of liked it) and the Merc (hated it). He's been a car nut for pretty much all his life, and doesn't know a damned thing about cars except for what he likes. He's as much of a car nut as anybody.

My wife is a car enthusiast who also doesn't know anything about cars except for what she likes. Right now she still really loves her '05 Pilot, compared to either a new Pilot, a GL450 or an Acadia (others she's recently checked out).

Fine by me. I like it too.

I think the Honda Fit and the Dodge Cummins diesel pickup are exceedingly cool vehicles that I'd really like to own - and so far I prefer the single 1 series I drove to either of the new M3s I've driven. I'm impressed by the M3, but would rather actually own a Fit, the aforementioned Dodge, or a 1 series. I also know that the M-DCT is an automatic, by virtue of having two pedals and no-shift driving. Does all this mean I'm not an enthusiast?

I applaud the passion of anybody who loves all things BMW (or any other Marque) over everything else out there, but abhor their judgement.

Bruce

Well shit, I just typed a nice long response but lost it into cyberspace. So here's the less wordy cliff notes:

I never said you weren't an enthusiast, I began that sentence with IMHO, which is just that...my opinion. That fact that you're a track instructor (former) and previously wrote a long ass post how to do a drag strip makes that quite obvious. Again IMHO, an enthusiast knows a thing or two about the cars he/she drives. Based on your description your neighbor the car nut doesn't make it to enthusiast status in my book.

Well I wish I could find my previous response somewhere on this PC, but it's gone, it's late, and I have to drive my M3 355 miles tomorrow. You might hear the sonic boom in Lancaster as I go by.
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      09-23-2008, 08:09 AM   #31
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... it's gone, it's late, and I have to drive my M3 355 miles tomorrow. You might hear the sonic boom in Lancaster as I go by.


I'll listen for it. In my opinion, they should bottle the sounds the M3 makes and sell the results. They could make cubic money.

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      09-23-2008, 12:20 PM   #32
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I think you should buy an automatic Fit.
I'd like to (no auto, though), but my bride and I are trying out a relatively new strategy. Since my retirement (about eight years early according to the feds), we're trying to stick with a two-car strategy, as opposed to a three (or even four) car plan we implemented for many years. Thus, when I sold the SRT4 last year (wonderful track car), I haven't replaced it with another toy.

The Fit would be great for local errands, plus it can swallow a bunch of stuff from the Home Depot, etc., and the Dodge is great just for the sounds it makes, plus the sheer heft of the Cummins internals. But see, we're trying to stick to this two-car plan.

You know - as if we've actually matured or something.

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      09-23-2008, 04:25 PM   #33
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Bruce, I think you might be downplaying the meaning behind a name too much.

An automatic transmission is named such because of its overall functionality. But over time it has become associated with certain features, namely a torque converter. There have been derivatives of the aforementioned transmission, but they were only modifications. (ie. Steptronic, Tiptronic transmissions in BMW and Porsche) They were mechanically the same however.

Now when you talk about the M-DCT or the Audi/VW DSG. You are talking about a system that is mechanically different. No torque converter transmission with a gimmick shift lever, but an actual clutch. So the only trait that is shared between the 2 is that they both use gears, and that they both don't require the user to work a manual clutch. They are similar in direct interface alone which would be a pretty stereotypical way of associating anything. In this case, a new name is warranted because the DCT is not an automatic transmission. It simply just functions 'automatically'. The difference is that the same word can be used to either describe or name the product in question. Yes, it does function automatically for the user. But it is not an "automatic" transmission. A description that many consider to be taboo when used in conjunction with a competetive sportscar. While you may be sitting there wondering why it matters what name you call it by, we are sitting here equally baffled and wondering why you won't just call it what it's named. Stop trying so hard to be different!


Lastly, you said you wife was a car enthusiast but she knew nothing about cars. I believe you use the term enthusiast incorrectly here. I think the term shouldn't be used for someone whose interest in cars is only skin deep. I'm not trying to bash your wife or anything, and there is nothing wrong with just liking how cars look and not caring much more about them. I'm just saying that she wouldn't typically be classified as an enthusiast or a fanatic.

In both my cases above, the word doesn't matter quite as much. Just an arbitrary collection of letters. The meaning behind the word however is important. The meaning is what carries the weight and the idea with it. So, if you don't use the correctly matched words with their significantly more important meanings then you've just got something that poeple don't understand and will argue about.
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      09-23-2008, 05:14 PM   #34
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honestly i dont get what it matters if it has a torque converter or not. it automatically shifts for you unless you manually do it pressing a lever or button. performance-wise there isn't a very big difference between sport tuned ones like in the c63 or is-f. hell porsche's automatic 911 turbo outperformed the manual version, and that's with a torque converter. I guess since it's labeled "automatic" it was designed for women, and not a true manual like the DCT
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      09-23-2008, 05:16 PM   #35
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honestly i dont get what it matters if it has a torque converter or not. it automatically shifts for you unless you manually do it pressing a lever or button. performance-wise there isn't a very big difference between sport tuned ones like in the c63 or is-f. hell porsche's automatic 911 turbo outperformed the manual version, and that's with a torque converter. I guess since it's labeled "automatic" it was designed for women, and not a true manual like the DCT
Well by your logic I can call automatics that offer a "manual" mode.........ready for this?
A MANUAL!
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      09-23-2008, 06:40 PM   #36
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looks kill, and the C63 is just overly flamboyant...E92 M3 ftw...
The c63 is way more subtle
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      09-23-2008, 07:11 PM   #37
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Well by your logic I can call automatics that offer a "manual" mode.........ready for this?
A MANUAL!
which is what everyone keeps pushing to call dct. i just dont get why there is so much nitpicking as far as a torque converter vs a computer controlled clutch. they basically operate with the same function, removing the need for a third pedal.
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      09-23-2008, 08:15 PM   #38
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Bruce, I think you might be downplaying the meaning behind a name too much.
Quite the opposite. The entire concept of the automatic transmission was to free the driver from having to shift gears and row down the road. That's why it's called an automatic.

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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
An automatic transmission is named such because of its overall functionality. But over time it has become associated with certain features, namely a torque converter. There have been derivatives of the aforementioned transmission, but they were only modifications. (ie. Steptronic, Tiptronic transmissions in BMW and Porsche) They were mechanically the same however.
Tying the term "automatic transmission" to how a device actually goes about being automatic is nonsense. "Automatic" means you don't have to intervene from time to time in order to get down the road, and tying "automatic" to "torque converter" is a specious argument.

Even so, your logic will need to embrace the Merc SL 7-speed, which doesn't have a torque converter. So - it's not an automatic?

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Now when you talk about the M-DCT or the Audi/VW DSG. You are talking about a system that is mechanically different. No torque converter transmission with a gimmick shift lever, but an actual clutch. So the only trait that is shared between the 2 is that they both use gears, and that they both don't require the user to work a manual clutch. They are similar in direct interface alone which would be a pretty stereotypical way of associating anything.
Just how in the hell do you think the automatic transmission got its title, except by the direct interface? Jesus.

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In this case, a new name is warranted because the DCT is not an automatic transmission. It simply just functions 'automatically'. The difference is that the same word can be used to either describe or name the product in question. Yes, it does function automatically for the user. But it is not an "automatic" transmission.
Once again, the interface is what defines the name.

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A description that many consider to be taboo when used in conjunction with a competetive sportscar.
Yes. See note 26 in this string. Reason three.

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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
While you may be sitting there wondering why it matters what name you call it by,...
Nope. See note 26.

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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
...we are sitting here equally baffled and wondering why you won't just call it what it's named.
I have routinely referred to it by its marketing name, but of course that has nothing to do with my utter conviction that it's an automatic.

Incidentally, only some of you are wondering why I call it an automatic. For those, see note 26.

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Stop trying so hard to be different!
I'm not trying to be different, but I tend to exert no effort to be the same.

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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Lastly, you said you wife was a car enthusiast but she knew nothing about cars. I believe you use the term enthusiast incorrectly here. I think the term shouldn't be used for someone whose interest in cars is only skin deep. I'm not trying to bash your wife or anything, and there is nothing wrong with just liking how cars look and not caring much more about them. I'm just saying that she wouldn't typically be classified as an enthusiast or a fanatic.
I believe that's another myopic view. Liking how cars look is important to most folks, but my wife, for instance, cares quite a lot about functionality. She just doesn't know about the inner workings. Restricting the use of the term "enthusiast" to someone who has a lot of car knowledge seems a little elitist to me. I think that a person who is excited or enthusiastic about cars is an enthusiast.

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In both my cases above, the word doesn't matter quite as much. Just an arbitrary collection of letters. The meaning behind the word however is important. The meaning is what carries the weight and the idea with it. So, if you don't use the correctly matched words with their significantly more important meanings then you've just got something that poeple don't understand and will argue about.
I agree that word meanings are important, which is why I am still engaged in this ultimately boring exercise.

Bruce
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      09-23-2008, 08:47 PM   #39
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I agree that word meanings are important, which is why I am still engaged in this ultimately boring exercise. Bruce
I'll toast to that. Cheers.

Well most of the stuff I was going to say in post #30 was already said by others. So at least I don't have to retype it.

It seems as if we're at an impasse on what is an automatic transmission with both sides sticking to their guns. I truly don't know enough about the C63 tranny to classify it as one or the other.

I do agree with ultimate that a car enthusiast is more than someone who is enthusiastic about a car. My 15 yr old daughter is enthusiastic about my M3 but that doesn't make her a car or BMW or M3 enthusiast in my book.

Does anyone know what the definition of "is" is?

I do know this, I've put 1100 miles on my car since Friday, 5 days ago. This car is just as spectacular at interstate cruising as it is at the track or carving up a canyon. All my interstate driving has been with the cruise control set on 80 (77-78 actual speed) EDC on comfort. I've averaged just under 21 mpg during that stint. These seats are the most comfortable seats I've ever had in a car. The interior is as quiet as a bank vault at speed. And the M3 attracts the attention of other "enthusiasts" driving Z06s, Viper coupes, and today at Silver E46 with some wide ass tires on it and some track tech (HPDE) stickers on the windshield. I LOVE THIS CAR.

One more thing, my M3 in Space Gray must not have "give me a ticket" written on it. As I passed one cop doing 78, because I stupidly ignored my V1 thinking it must be a false alarm.

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      09-23-2008, 10:52 PM   #40
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Restricting the use of the term "enthusiast" to someone who has a lot of car knowledge seems a little elitist to me. I think that a person who is excited or enthusiastic about cars is an enthusiast.
Since when are we 'not' elitists? I was already under this assumption. Besides, I think the term enthusiast carries a slight elitist connotation anyways.

Regardless, I've said my piece on the topic. Not trying to push my views on you. I just think there is more to the transmission than simply the interface.
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      09-24-2008, 10:21 AM   #41
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Good poll op....I being non-biased want to try out the new DCT M3. DCT FTW

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Right now, the C63 in a heartbeat. In a year or so (when BMW has had a chance to work the bugs out of their auto), it's a tossup.

Bruce
That is after they clear out the bugs which was rightly pointed out by Bruce.

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Great question,

you may also want to go to the RedSox forum and ask them who deserves to win the next world sereis- the Redsox or the Yankees
Lol....Yankees
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      09-24-2008, 10:38 AM   #42
Mr.Metak2you
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
....I agree that word meanings are important, which is why I am still engaged in this ultimately boring exercise.

Bruce
Going back to my earlier post. Answer this question...if you have an automatic Steptronic shifter with the ability to shift gears manually, would you call it a manual transmission? See how faulty your logic is?
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      09-24-2008, 12:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I believe that's another myopic view. Liking how cars look is important to most folks, but my wife, for instance, cares quite a lot about functionality. She just doesn't know about the inner workings. Restricting the use of the term "enthusiast" to someone who has a lot of car knowledge seems a little elitist to me. I think that a person who is excited or enthusiastic about cars is an enthusiast.

I think you're mixing up being interested in cars with being an enthusiast. To be an enthusiast, you have to care about driving dynamics. From most of your posts, it seems like that's something that really doesn't matter to you. That's the reason most of these people are here and drive BMWs, we all share a love for good driving dynamics. Calling a dual-clutch transmission an automatic is only downplaying your intelligence and car "enthusiasm."
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      09-24-2008, 12:42 PM   #44
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It doesn't really matter if you can hear the clutches working like a previous poster stated. That doesn't define anything. The DCT requires not one more ounce of driver involvement than any other "automatic car with paddle shift" out there. Compared to an automatic 328i, there is the same involvement to shift from a driver's standpoint, which is directing the shifter in a certain direction. So from a driver's standpoint, the DCT is essentially an automatic.

On the other hand, from a technical perspective, people could still consider it a manual IMO. B/c yes it lacks a torque converter and gains all sorts of fun little gizmos they write about in the manual but no one ever knows what/where they are.

So in conclusion, there is no more connection to the car with the driver than any other auto on the market. So basically it's an automatic with a fancy name.
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