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      07-22-2008, 08:51 PM   #23
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What an intollerant prick. You call them backwards when you're the one who believes everything written by the same people who thought the earth was flat.
maybe you will understand the meaning of word SARCASM one day...
Read more posted about the OP before trying to respond with "smart" comments...
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      07-22-2008, 08:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
However, I also have the citizenship of Serbia...very different from Bosnia...
When you lived there, were you a supporter of Milosevic? Wasn't he responsible for much of the recent war between Serbs and muslims? I am not a student of Yugoslav/Serb history. I am asking a question.

Were there terrible war crimes committed by Milosevic's government (and military)? Were these crimes for an extended time with many participants (such as in the case of Jasmina)? If these crimes occurred, they are huge in comparison to anything you have ever been able to hold against American military personnel.
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      07-22-2008, 11:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
When you lived there, were you a supporter of Milosevic? Wasn't he responsible for much of the recent war between Serbs and muslims? I am not a student of Yugoslav/Serb history. I am asking a question.

Were there terrible war crimes committed by Milosevic's government (and military)? Were these crimes for an extended time with many participants (such as in the case of Jasmina)? If these crimes occurred, they are huge in comparison to anything you have ever been able to hold against American military personnel.
Please, if you are genuinely intersted in the worst genocide comitted during the YU civil war, read this:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...ext=va&aid=795
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      07-22-2008, 11:51 PM   #26
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      07-23-2008, 12:29 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ///Metak View Post
Please, if you are genuinely intersted in the worst genocide comitted during the YU civil war, read this:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...ext=va&aid=795
That really is an interesting piece from 8 years ago. Were there many calls for Clinton to pay the price for the acts of his administration? Maybe some that were seldom heard.

Certainly the Croats and the Muslims had their viewpoint as well. The story of Jasmina was a very personal one for her and those who suffered like her. Who was most wrong in that war and leading up to it is certainly a matter of opinion. I do not have enough information from either side to have a clear idea of why it all happened and who the bad characters were. It seems that some of them are meeting with justice even now (such as Radovan Karadzic).

Was everyone who was involved on all sides wrong in this war? Or do you strictly take the side of the Serbs?
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      07-23-2008, 07:18 AM   #28
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When you lived there, were you a supporter of Milosevic? Wasn't he responsible for much of the recent war between Serbs and muslims? I am not a student of Yugoslav/Serb history. I am asking a question.

Were there terrible war crimes committed by Milosevic's government (and military)? Were these crimes for an extended time with many participants (such as in the case of Jasmina)? If these crimes occurred, they are huge in comparison to anything you have ever been able to hold against American military personnel.
First of all, the military service (one year long) was mandatory in Yugoslavia. So, I ended up in the service in 1990/91 -- the worst possible time. Last 3 months of my service I spent in the war...
I left Yugoslavia as soon as I got out of the military service. First time I went back was 1999.
Obviously I was not the supporter of Milosevic and his ideas. I lost the country to him. But I learned a lot from that experience and how horrible the wars are...that is why I oppose any war, that is why I still believe Bush and Clinton are war criminals -- they did the same as Milosevic did, slightly different approach...much better propaganda.
About the war crimes -- yes, they were widely commited by all sides. A part of my family is from Bosnia and I have heard grusome stories from them and crimes that Muslims did. We hear about exaggerated Srebrenica numbers, but we do not hear what lead to it.
We have seen mainly staged videos and pictures of Kosovo events, but have not seen the other story -- 250,000 Serbs expelled and NEVER returned.
Similarly in Croatia...
All sides did horrible things equally.
FYI -- in 1991, when the civil war started in Yugoslavia, the US policy supported Serbia, and I have seen the documents where the USA proposed to build its military bases in Serbia. Milosevic refused to agree -- things (propaganda and politics) turned around 180 degrees... From there on Serbs were marked as rapists, killers, and so on. Military bases were built in Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia...
As for the war crimes -- I am almost certain that Yugoslav/Serbian Army did not commit them and they were not ordered to do so. The problem was the paramilitaries that did not follow any rules -- they did unthinkable...

There is much more to this but this is a wrong thread for that...
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      07-23-2008, 07:21 AM   #29
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Was everyone who was involved on all sides wrong in this war? Or do you strictly take the side of the Serbs?
Show me a single war where only one side is "guilty"...
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      07-23-2008, 10:48 AM   #30
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.....Was everyone who was involved on all sides wrong in this war? Or do you strictly take the side of the Serbs?
Wrong? Well that is totally a matter of perspective. I think it is important to look at the big picture. I grew up as a Yugoslav, I wanted to see the country remain united. All Serbs wanted a united YU. That is what they were fighting for(in the begining). The fighting would never have escalated to the level it did without outside government interferance. Serbs were victims of Nazi/Ustasha(Croatian) facsism during WWII, only to be victims again in Croatia during the 90's. Census data from Krajina, Croatia shows that almost 1/2 million Serbs were ethnically cleansed from that area, 250,000 in a 36 hour period. In addition, 20,000 massacred dead from this region and this is often in media refered to an organized evacuation. People who lived there for 500 years, gone, never to return. Yet all you will ever hear about in the news is Srebrenica and the ~8000 dead. Kosovo, a territory inside Serbia itself has now been recognized as independent and will no longer be part of Serbia. Over the past 50years the Serbs have been driven out of Kosovo, only to create a "Greater Albania". All I see is great injustice on a large scale. What happened to Jasna is tragic, but so many people are looking at the branch while an entire forest is burning.
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      07-23-2008, 10:49 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Show me a single war where only one side is "guilty"...
I can't think of any reason the allies were wrong in world war 2. There may be individual actions that were not pefectly executed or fully justified. Perhaps detention of citizens of Japanese descent would fit that category, but they were not executed, and to my knowledge, not abused.

In wartime, some rights are suspended. We need to avoid war whenever possible. This is where Ron Paul and Chuck Baldwin may just have the best ideas in this election year.
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      07-23-2008, 10:59 AM   #32
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I can't think of any reason the allies were wrong in world war 2. There may be individual actions that were not pefectly executed or fully justified. Perhaps detention of citizens of Japanese descent would fit that category, but they were not executed, and to my knowledge, not abused.

In wartime, some rights are suspended. We need to avoid war whenever possible. This is where Ron Paul and Chuck Baldwin may just have the best ideas in this election year.
I know for sure that there were "executions" done by the alied forces, too...
The WW2 is a bit different though as one side tried to concur the rest of the world. Other wars (like Korea, Vietnam, the Balkans, middle East, majority of Civil Wars) do involve crimes on all sides...
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      07-23-2008, 08:02 PM   #33
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The night Karadzic rocked the Madhouse

Apparently there are those in Serbia who are still fond of Milosevic and his associates.
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The night Karadzic rocked the Madhouse
Julian Borger in Belgrade
The Guardian,
Thursday July 24, 2008

Everyone at the Luda Kuca bar remembers Dragan David Dabic. The white-whiskered doctor lived in a block of flats around the corner and the local kids called him "Santa Claus".

The man unmasked on Monday as Europe's most wanted fugitive, Radovan Karadzic, was a regular at the bar. He would stop in every few days for a glass of red wine and pass a couple of hours reading and writing.

In retrospect, it is hardly surprising it was his favourite pub. The walls and bar of the Luda Kuca (the name means madhouse) are adorned with the Serb pantheon - Slobodan Milosevic, Vojislav Seselj, Ratko Mladic and of course, Radovan Karadzic - each one a nationalist hero. For the hardline clientele, the fact that they also shared the distinction of having been charged by The Hague war crimes tribunal only enhanced their status as warriors.

~

"I am proud that he was here, that he felt safe and secure here," he said.

"I am just sad because of what has happened and that he is going to a dungeon in The Hague."
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      07-23-2008, 08:12 PM   #34
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Apparently there are those in Serbia who are still fond of Milosevic and his associates.
Apparently at least 20% of Americans would still vote for this dumb ass criminal -- Bush, so what???
And even more for a criminal Clinton...
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      07-24-2008, 09:52 PM   #35
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Serb Leader’s Capture Brings Little Solace at Site of Killings in Bosnia

Serb Leader’s Capture Brings Little Solace at Site of Killings in Bosnia

By DAN BILEFSKY
Published: July 25, 2008

SREBRENICA, Bosnia and Herzegovina — Fadila Efendik had little time to rejoice this week over the capture of Radovan Karadzic, the man she blames for the death of her only son: she was too busy looking for his missing and scattered body parts.

The arrest on Monday of Mr. Karadzic, the wartime leader of the Bosnian Serbs accused of masterminding the worst massacre since World War II, brought cold comfort to Mrs. Efendik, she said.

She nervously played with her head scarf and sobbed as she scanned the endless rows of white grave stones here on Wednesday in the area where Serbian paramilitary forces under the command of Mr. Karadzic separated the men and boys who would later be killed in a frenzy that claimed 8,000 lives. “I am bitter because it took so long to find Karadzic,” she said. “My son was two weeks shy of his 20th birthday. I still can’t find his body. I found some of my husband’s bones but not enough to bury him whole. Karadzic may have been found, but now I am alone in the world.”

When news of Mr. Karadzic’s arrest on war crimes charges broke on Monday, hundreds of Muslims poured onto the rainy streets of Sarajevo, the Bosnian capital. The city still bears the scars of a brutal three-and-a-half year siege during which Mr. Karadzic is accused of authorizing the shooting of civilians.

Some danced and chanted “This is Bosnia!” — a defiant answer to Mr. Karadzic’s wartime aim of “ethnically cleansing” Bosnian Muslims from the country and making it part of a greater Serbia. More than 10,000 Bosnians died in Sarajevo during the war.

But here in Srebrenica, where the massacre took place in 1995, locals said they had little faith in a legal process undertaken by the United Nations tribunal in The Hague 13 years after the hunt for Mr. Karadzic began. Some feared the tragedy he is accused of helping to orchestrate was being overshadowed by the lurid soap opera, played out on front pages across the world, detailing his evasion as an alternative medicine specialist, with a mistress, a fake American family and an elaborate disguise.

Mr. Karadzic has been indicted, along with the Bosnian Serb military commander, Gen. Ratko Mladic, for genocide in connection with the killings during the siege at Sarajevo and the massacre at Srebrenica, where unarmed Bosnian Muslim males were lined up, killed and buried in mass graves.

Mrs. Efendik said residual anger at the West’s inaction remained. In particular, she pointed to the 300 Dutch peacekeepers at the United Nations-protected enclave where 40,000 people had sought refuge before the killings. She said they should have done more to protect Bosnian Muslims from the raiding Serbian forces, some of whom stole the helmets and vehicles of peacekeepers to trick and capture victims trying to flee. Past Dutch governments have said responsibility for the massacre lay with the killers, not with the United Nations troops.

“The U.N. couldn’t save us then. What is it going to do now?” Mrs. Efendik said.

Mrs. Efendik recalled the day the killings began, when Serbian paramilitary forces separated the men from the women, putting the women on open trucks that would carry them to Muslim-controlled territory. She said the truck she was traveling on was stopped along the route, where the women were forced to watch and give the three-finger Serbian nationalist salute as Serbian forces mowed down their fathers, brothers and sons before their eyes.

Only a handful of the 8,000 men and boys survived, some by pretending to be dead and hiding under corpses. Witnesses said those who remained were herded to nearby wooded areas, soccer grounds, warehouses or barren meadows, where they were killed. Many bodies were later found in mass graves with their hands tied behind their backs.

Hatidza Mehmedovic, president of Srebrenica Mothers, a victims support group, who lost two young sons, her husband, her father and two brothers during the massacre, said she would only be able to rest when the West brought to justice Mr. Mladic, who is still at large.

“Karadzic gave the orders for Srebrenica, but it was Mladic who executed it,” she said. “I have some satisfaction from Karadzic’s arrest, but it doesn’t change the fact that Srebrenica remains a mirror to the shame of the world and its inaction. All those who could have prevented this should see the graves so that this will never happen again.”

Ms. Mehmedovic said all she had left of her two sons, Almir and Azmir, 19 and 21 at the time of their deaths, was a tree Almir had planted in her front yard and a school notebook Azmir had left on his desk. “We were awaiting the wedding of our children, the birth of our grandchildren, now all we have are empty graves.”

She said Mr. Karadzic’s arrest was little solace for thousands of families like hers that had not been able to bury their loved ones because forensic experts had only recovered part of their remains. Last year, she said, she found the mangled body of one of her sons, but was unable to identify which one. She had found the bones of her husband, but not enough to bury him.

Avdo Suljic, 35, an unemployed Bosnian Muslim, who lost 200 relatives at Srebrenica, ranging in age from 16 to 85, said he had only recently returned, for fear of confronting too many ghosts. He recalled he had escaped being killed by trekking seven days in the mountains, drinking rain water and hiding. “Karadzic is an old man. Nothing with his arrest has changed for me. I have no job and little future.”

Mr. Suljic, who fought with Bosnian forces during the war, said the war had economically devastated the town. He said he spent his days gambling and drinking. He noted two events that eased his pain since he returned to Srebrenica two years ago. “I found my father’s legs two years ago, and two weeks ago I found his head,” he said.
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      07-24-2008, 10:27 PM   #36
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      07-24-2008, 10:35 PM   #37
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Apparently there are those in Serbia who are still fond of Milosevic and his associates.
And there are white supremacists in the U.S. who adore Hitler. Doesn't make it right.

There are lots of stupid people in the world. One may call them ignorant, as I'm certain they're all not idiots. Let me find a good quote for ignorance...

Found it:
"Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.” -The Dalai Lama

Another:
"Despite all appearances, no one is really evil. They are led astray by ignorance. If you ponder this truth always you will offer more light, rather then blame and condemnation."
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      07-24-2008, 10:46 PM   #38
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I can't think of any reason the allies were wrong in world war 2. There may be individual actions that were not pefectly executed or fully justified. Perhaps detention of citizens of Japanese descent would fit that category, but they were not executed, and to my knowledge, not abused.

In wartime, some rights are suspended. We need to avoid war whenever possible. This is where Ron Paul and Chuck Baldwin may just have the best ideas in this election year.
I read an interesting book by Pat Buchannan called "Hitler, Churchill, and the Unnecessary War". I do not agree with Mr. Buchannan on a lot of things but I found this book to be quite interesting.

His basic premise is that WWI caused WWII. It certainly makes sense. The Allies were just as wrong as the Germans/Austrians in WWI. The Allies were also wrong in WWII. Just as an example - Stalin was also involved in attacking Poland and yet he was an Allied leader. The Western Allies gave him all of Eastern Europe on a platter (including Poland). That was wrong. Just that fact makes the allies wrong in WWII. The war started with a War Gurantee to Poland. That gurantee was never fulfilled. Stalin was just as bad a Hitler.

Back to God. If God is there then may the son of a gun strike me dead now!!
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      07-24-2008, 10:47 PM   #39
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I am still alive!!

God does not exist.
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      07-25-2008, 02:56 PM   #40
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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish. -Unknown
Only if the man is close minded and doesn't believe that he needs to use the intellect that god gave him, then he died because he was a fool.
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      07-25-2008, 05:16 PM   #41
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Only if the man is close minded and doesn't believe that he needs to use the intellect that god gave him, then he died because he was a fool.
Are you trying to say that people don't pray for divine intervention? Some people rely on it pretty heavily, that god is their 'copilot', someone 'upstairs' is looking out for them.

Prayer is very useful for personal inspiration, and solace, but if one thinks there is a god looking out for one's best interest, and it will make a real difference, one is wasting one's time.

Humans are screwing up big time. The 'rapture' is magical thinking. No god is going to save us.

The greatest mass delusion, ever.

"I don't understand this. It must be magic." -everyone
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      08-02-2008, 11:07 AM   #42
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Karadzic Accuses His Accusers

In the letter, he offered bitter criticism of the former American envoy Richard C. Holbrooke; Mr. Karadzic claimed in court on Thursday that he had brokered a deal with Mr. Holbrooke that would enable him to avoid a trial. Mr. Karadzic also asserted in the letter that Madeleine K. Albright, secretary of state at the time, had proposed that he drop out of sight by opening a private clinic somewhere abroad.

Ms. Albright suggested that “I get out of the way and go to Russia, Greece or Serbia and open a private clinic or at least go to Bijeljina,” he wrote.

“There was an agreement he would leave power,” Mr. Holbrooke said. “He got nothing in return.”

Some observers of the trial of Mr. Milosevic, the former Serbian president and Mr. Karadzic’s mentor, said they saw parallels between the men. Mr. Milosevic often used his time in court to criticize and try to embarrass the West.
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      08-22-2008, 03:44 AM   #43
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south korea?... almost all the Koreans i know are christian..
most of my korean friends all believe in god
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      08-30-2008, 01:34 AM   #44
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Are you trying to say that people don't pray for divine intervention? Some people rely on it pretty heavily, that god is their 'copilot', someone 'upstairs' is looking out for them.

Prayer is very useful for personal inspiration, and solace, but if one thinks there is a god looking out for one's best interest, and it will make a real difference, one is wasting one's time.

Humans are screwing up big time. The 'rapture' is magical thinking. No god is going to save us.

The greatest mass delusion, ever.

"I don't understand this. It must be magic." -everyone

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