BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
PYSPEED
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-19-2008, 12:33 AM   #1
ace996
NASA/PDA Instructor
 
ace996's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island

Posts: 284
iTrader: (0)

Sway Bars for the E9x M3???

So who makes an upgraded sway-bar for the front/rear for the E9xM3?
Thanks,
TomK
__________________

"Arcadian, I've fought countless times, yet I've never met an adversary who could offer me what we Spartans call "A Beautiful Death." I can only hope, with all the world's warriors gathered against us, there might be one down there who's up to the task."Μολὼν λαβέ!!
ace996 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2008, 03:18 AM   #2
Mickb
Private First Class
 
Drives: AW/FR E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ireland

Posts: 137
iTrader: (0)

Could I ask why you want one? Have you driven the stock car on track and found it to be compromised?

Mick
Mickb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2008, 04:46 PM   #3
ace996
NASA/PDA Instructor
 
ace996's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island

Posts: 284
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickb View Post
Could I ask why you want one? Have you driven the stock car on track and found it to be compromised?

Mick
A question for my question...sure...

Mick,
I've yet to own/drive a car that from the factory that offered the roll stiffness to which I am accustomed. I habitually like stiff set-ups and with the EDC, choose to address that viathe bars. I have a track day on September 26th, so I'll see how it goes.
I'm just being proactive.
__________________

"Arcadian, I've fought countless times, yet I've never met an adversary who could offer me what we Spartans call "A Beautiful Death." I can only hope, with all the world's warriors gathered against us, there might be one down there who's up to the task."Μολὼν λαβέ!!
ace996 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-19-2008, 11:40 PM   #4
JAJ
Captain
 
Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

Posts: 923
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
A question for my question...sure...

Mick,
I've yet to own/drive a car that from the factory that offered the roll stiffness to which I am accustomed. I habitually like stiff set-ups and with the EDC, choose to address that viathe bars. I have a track day on September 26th, so I'll see how it goes.
I'm just being proactive.
Stiffer bars transfer load from the inside wheel to the outside wheel, which in turn pushes the outer tire into overload at a lower cornering speed. You trade away grip to get flatter cornering.

If you want it flatter and you want more grip then put in stiffer springs - that reduces the weight transfer and makes the inside tire do more work, raising the speed where the outside tire overloads and starts to slide.
JAJ is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 02:55 AM   #5
KINGLEH
Major
 
KINGLEH's Avatar
 
Drives: 00 GTR - 09 E92 M
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Charleston, SC

Posts: 1,043
iTrader: (1)

its tuff to have a decent thread these days....


the man just asked if anyone knew of any sways....



he could be running R comps at the track... and sways will def help in that situation....


a common rule is..... more grip = go stiffer





i love the over engineering thought process.... thats then turned into another post on these forums...
KINGLEH is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 04:11 AM   #6
IWC Doppel
Private First Class
 
Drives: 08 M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London

Posts: 176
iTrader: (0)

I prefer stiffer roll bars too. Depends on your driving style and feel.

I don't care if a japanese mits something with 4 wheel drive and a tehcno feast has more in corner grip, but rolls like a jelly. I prefer feel and balance and hate body roll ! (With very low profile tyres as I am sure you are all aware the contact patch will reduce very quickly if the car rolls by a lot and lose all grip. As tyre flex is not there to compensate on low pro's)

HOWEVER fitting H&R springs has improved cornering balance significantly to the point I am no longer thinking of roll bars. Suspect a combination of ride height reduction and increased stiffness.
IWC Doppel is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 05:57 AM   #7
Mickb
Private First Class
 
Drives: AW/FR E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ireland

Posts: 137
iTrader: (0)

Lads

Wasn't trying to make the thread degenerate.

Its just I have tracked the car twice now and found the combination of feel & balance to be perfect with EDC set to sport, and felt body roll was not a factor. The car is very neutral, very willing to turn in, and if you have overdone your entry speed a touch of trailbrake gets you turning in very quickly and set up for perfect apexing or beautiful drifts (whatever your poison). All my passsengers commented on how surprised they were at the feel as stock, and that the car belied its apparent size.

I come from an E46 M3 that had KW v3's upgraded arb's, camber plates etc etc and I just urge people to try the car as stock before changing stuff. it really is very accomplished. Certainly as someone who just enjoys drifting the car, and nice balanced handling, I don't feel any need to change anything relative to my last car and certainly don't feel I could do anything suspension wise that would lower lap times.

I acknowledge that if you are a hardcore tracker you might prefer somewhat a stiffer feel, but I also believe too many people think that you can fix all handling woes with sway bars etc, when in fact it often just leads to greater understeer, and then a vicious circle of more modifications etc etc

Thats why I was just curious if the OP had driven the car in anger and what he found to be deficient about the stock handling.

Regards


Mick
Mickb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 06:15 AM   #8
IWC Doppel
Private First Class
 
Drives: 08 M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London

Posts: 176
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickb View Post
Lads

Wasn't trying to make the thread degenerate.

Its just I have tracked the car twice now and found the combination of feel & balance to be perfect with EDC set to sport, and felt body roll was not a factor. The car is very neutral, very willing to turn in, and if you have overdone your entry speed a touch of trailbrake gets you turning in very quickly and set up for perfect apexing or beautiful drifts (whatever your poison). All my passsengers commented on how surprised they were at the feel as stock, and that the car belied its apparent size.

I come from an E46 M3 that had KW v3's upgraded arb's, camber plates etc etc and I just urge people to try the car as stock before changing stuff. it really is very accomplished. Certainly as someone who just enjoys drifting the car, and nice balanced handling, I don't feel any need to change anything relative to my last car and certainly don't feel I could do anything suspension wise that would lower lap times.

I acknowledge that if you are a hardcore tracker you might prefer somewhat a stiffer feel, but I also believe too many people think that you can fix all handling woes with sway bars etc, when in fact it often just leads to greater understeer, and then a vicious circle of more modifications etc etc

Thats why I was just curious if the OP had driven the car in anger and what he found to be deficient about the stock handling.

Regards


Mick
Mick, well put

I did not track the car before fitting the H&R springs (Should of TBH), you will find a write up on the differences. A good friend who also has an E92M3 compared the two on his favourite route and concluded the same as me. Tony did have 3 CSL's at one time one race car in BRITCAR I think and a modded trackday car as well as a roadie !.

I trust Tony's judgement and he is fitting them to his E92 M3 after comparing the two

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149729

My initial comments :

" 10mm spacers all round

I might try 13mm on the rear to fill out a little more.

Regarding handling & ride comfort

Rise is marginally stiffer, feels a little tighter and planted. Little or no reduction in comfort.

I had it set up by a race team and they strung the car properly, factory was out especially at the rear. corner weights a little out (not adjustable)

After fitting springs corner weights much better, they reduced the toe in at the rear from factory and put 2mm toe out on the front. Cambers adjusted where possible (reduced ride height adds a little negative camber)

Turn in much better, steering feels weightier and more acccurate
Virtually eliminates float at speed
Body roll feels much reduced (I investigated aftermarket roll bars, it now feels much better and I am not looking any more !)
EDC seems better between settings, Normal is well balanced and my every day setting

Full stiff much better, no longer fidgety and bouncy if driven on a less than perfect road. When I am pushing on I choose full stiff and enjoy the hell out of it. Before I only got on with full stiff on the smoothest of surfaces as it simply felt unsettled

Adjustable susp now works, when driving hard the slight compromise on road surface transmission and stiffness is the right trade for a little more forgiving and surface absorbing ride. Both feel taughter and sportier

Overall I would say it's significantly better than stock and it looks much better too "
IWC Doppel is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 01:11 PM   #9
ace996
NASA/PDA Instructor
 
ace996's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island

Posts: 284
iTrader: (0)

So... I'm to assume that there are no upgraded sway-bars then...
__________________

"Arcadian, I've fought countless times, yet I've never met an adversary who could offer me what we Spartans call "A Beautiful Death." I can only hope, with all the world's warriors gathered against us, there might be one down there who's up to the task."Μολὼν λαβέ!!
ace996 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 02:32 PM   #10
m_parade
Private First Class
 
Drives: 08 Jet Black M3 Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Posts: 153
iTrader: (0)

It all depends on what type of tracks you would be running on. Sway bar could easily changed the characteristics of your car being oversteer or understeer.

P.S. I called H&R and they say they are developing a set of sway bars which are coming out in 2 months.
m_parade is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 02:32 PM   #11
IWC Doppel
Private First Class
 
Drives: 08 M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London

Posts: 176
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
So... I'm to assume that there are no upgraded sway-bars then...
I'm not aware of any at the moment .................
IWC Doppel is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 05:58 PM   #12
aussiem3
Major
 
aussiem3's Avatar
 
Drives: Goggomobil
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kangaroo land

Posts: 1,450
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2007 E92 M3  [0.00]
2011 F25 X3 30d  [0.00]
I've heard so many negative comments about putting spacers on, and the wheel bearings will suffer and lead to failure, as well as the steering geometry getting out of sync.

Could someone enlighten me whether this is a myth or is there real concerns?

I've read that Porsche are doing a limited run of Caymans with "wheel spacers" with GT3 wheels etc. I am really puzzled ... because Porsche won't do it if it will lead to bearing failure etc.!

The reason I am asking is because I have a set of original CSL wheels (not the Competition pack replicas) which I plan to use on the car when I track it. I don't know whether they will fit as standard or whether they'll need spacers. If I need spacers then I don't want to end up with a massive bill to replace any bearings because of failure.

I would rather run on the stock tyres and replace them! Any comments/input will be greatly appreciated.
__________________

2007 E92 6MT - Silverstone II with /// Performance Exhaust with ACM Test Pipes and BPM Sport Stage II Dev-Tune
2011 F25 X3 3.0d
aussiem3 is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 05:59 PM   #13
!Xoible
Banned
 
Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

Posts: 46,037
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [3.50]
2007 335i  [4.50]
2008 528i  [4.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [4.00]
i was reading in a car magazine the other day that one of the most sold modification for M3 so far has been Hotchkis sway bars. i never even knew they're making them.
!Xoible is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 08:46 PM   #14
KKSigua
Forever Modding!
 
KKSigua's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 JZB M3, M-DCT
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Indianapolis

Posts: 1,069
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
I've heard so many negative comments about putting spacers on, and the wheel bearings will suffer and lead to failure, as well as the steering geometry getting out of sync.

Could someone enlighten me whether this is a myth or is there real concerns?

I've read that Porsche are doing a limited run of Caymans with "wheel spacers" with GT3 wheels etc. I am really puzzled ... because Porsche won't do it if it will lead to bearing failure etc.!

The reason I am asking is because I have a set of original CSL wheels (not the Competition pack replicas) which I plan to use on the car when I track it. I don't know whether they will fit as standard or whether they'll need spacers. If I need spacers then I don't want to end up with a massive bill to replace any bearings because of failure.

I would rather run on the stock tyres and replace them! Any comments/input will be greatly appreciated.
+1 please enlight me as well.
__________________

Advan F7, Vorst. GTS3 Bumper, Deck lid, AA Pulley, ECU 1.5, X-Pipe w/HFC, Eisenmann Black Series Race, CF Grills,Vents,Mirrors, BMW Perf. Steering Wheel, 09 iDrive Knob, Alum. Pedals, Euro Rear Fog & Side Mirrors, Lux H8, F1 Tint, Ventureshield, EAS Mirror Mod, , Gruppe M CAI, Dinan 3.62, Stage 3 susp. ACS CF side skirt, Escort 9500ix, Challenge CF rear diffuser, Kics R40 Stud Conv. Kit, Alekshop F&R Cam.
KKSigua is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 09:08 PM   #15
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
 
Drives: 2008 M3 Coupe, 2012 ML350
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

Posts: 7,263
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
So... I'm to assume that there are no upgraded sway-bars then...
I would bet Ground Control will have them at some point.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2008 M3 Coupe - Alpine/Fox Red/Carbon
2015 M4 coupe on order
GregW / Oregon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-20-2008, 09:30 PM   #16
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKSigua View Post
+1 please enlight me as well.
You need to run spacers with the CSL wheels to prevent damage. Your CSL wheels need at least a 10mm spacer (probably 15 or 20mm) to get your offset close to the stock front offset on the e9x M3.

Besides, bearings aren't that expensive.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-21-2008, 01:31 AM   #17
ace996
NASA/PDA Instructor
 
ace996's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island

Posts: 284
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
I would bet Ground Control will have them at some point.
Yes, I assume the usual suspects will have their offerings... HR, Hotch, GC, ect. But none now?...I wonder if I can get a buddy to bend one custom....

Be good,
TomK
__________________

"Arcadian, I've fought countless times, yet I've never met an adversary who could offer me what we Spartans call "A Beautiful Death." I can only hope, with all the world's warriors gathered against us, there might be one down there who's up to the task."Μολὼν λαβέ!!
ace996 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-21-2008, 02:18 AM   #18
IWC Doppel
Private First Class
 
Drives: 08 M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London

Posts: 176
iTrader: (0)

I am personally not concerned about 10mm spacers affecting wheel bearings.

Look at what is actually happening here, the centreline of the wheel and centre point of the forces will move 10mm further out. We can assume that a spacer acts in the same way as a wheel with a different offset (high quality spacers)

The forces on the wheel bearings may see additional leverage and therefore additional force, but this needs to be put in context. The small potential increase will be marginal in comparison to the varied forces a wheel bearing may or may not see in various road/track situations. IF any increase was marginal then the bearings would be a marginal and a problem.

I am not sure what front wheel bearings an E46 CSL has but the CSL alloys have a different offset to std E46M3 wheels. Most aftermarket wheels have different offsets AC Schnitzer e92 M3 wheels vary by as much as 15mm increase in offset (ie reduced negative offset) so the same effect as fitting a 15mm spacer to stock wheels.

I ran an E39 M5 with 10mm front spacers for 70,000 miles no problems. Porsche sell different wheels or the same car with marginally different offsets and the latest option list allows you to factory order 5mm spacers !

I owned a Porsche 964RS for 10 years, the standard mod for track work was 22mm rear spacers and 11mm front spacers. I never changed this set up and never had a problem.

Look at FACTORY race cars they run stock bearings with some very aggressive offset wheels.

I am sure you could get a situation where you did have problems but not without first fitting a wide arch kit !
IWC Doppel is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-21-2008, 06:00 PM   #19
aussiem3
Major
 
aussiem3's Avatar
 
Drives: Goggomobil
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kangaroo land

Posts: 1,450
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2007 E92 M3  [0.00]
2011 F25 X3 30d  [0.00]
IWC:

I am considering putting the CSL wheels on the E92 M3 not on an E46.

Thank you for the very informative post.
__________________

2007 E92 6MT - Silverstone II with /// Performance Exhaust with ACM Test Pipes and BPM Sport Stage II Dev-Tune
2011 F25 X3 3.0d
aussiem3 is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      08-21-2008, 06:17 PM   #20
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
Stiffer bars transfer load from the inside wheel to the outside wheel, which in turn pushes the outer tire into overload at a lower cornering speed. You trade away grip to get flatter cornering.

If you want it flatter and you want more grip then put in stiffer springs - that reduces the weight transfer and makes the inside tire do more work, raising the speed where the outside tire overloads and starts to slide.
Very wrong. The cars CG determines the amout of weight transfer. All the bars and springs do is determine how much that makes the car lean. You can also use a sway bars to change the ratio of roll stiffness front to rear to induce or reduce understeer or oversteer.
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-22-2008, 05:14 PM   #21
m_parade
Private First Class
 
Drives: 08 Jet Black M3 Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Posts: 153
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
i was reading in a car magazine the other day that one of the most sold modification for M3 so far has been Hotchkis sway bars. i never even knew they're making them.
I read it from luxury modified and saw they made the sways for our car. I called yesterday and they are not going to be out until end of this year.
m_parade is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-22-2008, 05:16 PM   #22
!Xoible
Banned
 
Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

Posts: 46,037
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [3.50]
2007 335i  [4.50]
2008 528i  [4.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_parade View Post
I read it from luxury modified and saw they made the sways for our car. I called yesterday and they are not going to be out until end of this year.
damn! im sure UUC is working on one too. i liked the difference UUC's made on my 335, altho i hated the installation process and the design and the noises it made
!Xoible is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:36 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST