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      08-08-2008, 01:20 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Read the tread title again. It was a comparison of two schools. I know you guys don't like my opinion but I don't want to see others go through what I did. I 100% vote for the M school.
I`m glad somebody finally remembered the intent of this thread
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      08-08-2008, 07:12 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I am all for safe, but you really do have to be going fast enough that there is some challenge or you never really learn anything.

Not directed at you Enigma....

No matter what league of driving people are in, they can always benefit from good instruction / coaching.

I don't think people can always drive on the hairy edge, it is a battle to stay sharp and it is incredible how quickly bad habits are picked up.
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      08-08-2008, 08:16 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


funny thing is many of the CCA instrtuctors also teach for BMW NA!!
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      08-10-2008, 11:57 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Point is I hear a lot of people talk about "smooth is fast" and then never go out and back it up.

Speed Secret number 12 : Smooth is Fast
Ross Bently, SpeedSecrets 1. I guess Ross is just a poseur with no credentials?
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      08-11-2008, 01:16 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
Speed Secret number 12 : Smooth is Fast
Ross Bently, SpeedSecrets 1. I guess Ross is just a poseur with no credentials?
Ahh, but are they talking about smooth line, smooth inputs, or something else. Problem is all too many don't know the difference.
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      08-11-2008, 02:21 AM   #94
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Ahh, but are they talking about smooth line, smooth inputs, or something else. Problem is all too many don't know the difference.
oh yeah - "they" are talking about "something else".
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      08-11-2008, 02:38 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
oh yeah - "they" are talking about "something else".
I really want this to be my last post in this thread. The point of the thread is to compare and evaluate two driving schools. I have not done the M school but I have done many others. Some professional, others informal.

The reasons I would not recomend the BMW school:
1: The instructors pushed a one line fits all approach, despite full knowledge that it may not apply in all cases.

2: The school fosters a superiorty attitude with many of the instructors.

3: Due to severe traffic I was not able to practice turns at speed. The car behaves very differently at speed vs coasting speed.

4: I didn't have a good time at the event.

sayemthree, you seem to think this is about me trying to prove I am faster than everyone else. Its not, the BMW CCA event was the only time that might have been true. Most of the clubs I run with have much faster cars and drivers out there.

The weekend I ran with the BMW CCA I was actually there for a 3 days event. I ran with another club the friday before. I had a great time trying to keep up with some other very good drivers. But somehow I went from being about average in speed to being stuck behind rolling chicanes one after another. I was actually driving slower than the day before. I don't claim to be fast, but I know those cars on the track were slow compared to what I ran with the day before.

Now you can try to debate the meaning of "smooth" with me. The smooth you want as a driver is to keep the car on the outer edge of its traction circle at all times. You do that and drive the proper line and the car will appear, and be, smooth. However, that in no way implies you will be giving the car smooth inputs to achieve this. This is the common misunderstand that so many have and are heald back by. Sometimes to get the car to go fast while being smooth the driver must give it inputs that are not smooth. This will also very from car to car. What works in a stock e36 325 will be very different than a race preped E30.

What I find insteresting is just how many people that have never gone beyond the BMW CCA for their track time worship at its alter. Its really the big fish in a small pond syndrome. You need to get out and see what the rest of the clubs out there have to offer.
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      08-11-2008, 08:10 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
A graph of MDM intrusion on acceleration out of a turn.

Red is without MDM, black was with.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rjsams/M...28147870404594

I marked the point at which I tried to get on the power in both cases.
Thanks for the plot. Where exactly is the traction control intervention though? Between 1.5-2.5 secs? Did you see the traction control warning come on at that point?

I am asking these questions because I want to know if MDM makes minor interventions in the background that are not necessarily obvious like a major power cut.
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      08-11-2008, 09:24 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
What I find insteresting is just how many people that have never gone beyond the BMW CCA for their track time worship at its alter. Its really the big fish in a small pond syndrome. You need to get out and see what the rest of the clubs out there have to offer.

+1

PCA (Porsche) is probably the best of the "Makes" clubs.

If you want to see good crashes, go to the Ferrari clubs.....they do have spectacular matching driving suits though
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      08-11-2008, 09:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
If you want to see good crashes, go to the Ferrari clubs.....they do have spectacular matching driving suits though
I bet they serve free lattes...Didn't you recently threaten to jump the BMW ship and join the Ferrari camp instead?
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      08-11-2008, 10:05 AM   #99
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I bet they serve free lattes...Didn't you recently threaten to jump the BMW ship and join the Ferrari camp instead?

Since the meds kicked in, I will see what ///M has to offer in the next generation before making the jump to:
  • Custom driving suits + hand painted helmet by an unknown artist
  • Custom driving suit for my girlfriend and fans
  • Custom trailer with backup Ferrari (in case I crash)
  • A stopwatch that improves my laptimes
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      08-11-2008, 10:11 AM   #100
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      08-11-2008, 10:59 AM   #101
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The OP is a beginner.
1) he will be slow and not break his car.
2) he will have an open mind to learn without having his ego in the way.
3) he would save a lot of money starting out with a CCA car control or autocross event, then a track school.
4) I have been to BMW and CCA events and the level of instruction for beginners is not that much different compared to the cost you could do 6 to 10 CCA events compared to one M-school.
5) pros for the M school would be you drive their car/tires/gas/brakes etc.

not sure about east coast but west coast CCA now allows open passing in A and B (advanced) run groups.

if he goes to a PCA event he will be sneered at for having the engine in the wrong end of the car!
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      08-11-2008, 12:36 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Thanks for the plot. Where exactly is the traction control intervention though? Between 1.5-2.5 secs? Did you see the traction control warning come on at that point?

I am asking these questions because I want to know if MDM makes minor interventions in the background that are not necessarily obvious like a major power cut.
Yes it was during that time range and it was a major power cut. Enough so that my pasenger asked what was wrong with the car. It should be noted these were autocross conditions and not track conditions. The difference being I was probably more rough with the car since you don't have time to learn the course.
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      08-11-2008, 01:40 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Yes it was during that time range and it was a major power cut. Enough so that my pasenger asked what was wrong with the car. It should be noted these were autocross conditions and not track conditions. The difference being I was probably more rough with the car since you don't have time to learn the course.
OK, thanks for the clarification. That helps.
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      08-12-2008, 09:33 AM   #104
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its a cool graph - however comparing MDM on an autocross is not the same as on the track.
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      08-12-2008, 12:34 PM   #105
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its a cool graph - however comparing MDM on an autocross is not the same as on the track.
Because the car knows its at an autocross and behaves different?

Try Reno Fernly, its like a bit autocross (at least the back section). Or if you were thinking of speed and smoothness its really not going to like T10/11 at thill or the back straight at reno.
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      08-12-2008, 05:57 PM   #106
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Just viewed the graph, that is quite a crippling factor if you are seriously wanting to do trackdays, how much distance would you have estimated the MDM cost you on that one corner, I'm guessing 2 car lengths.

It's purely there to make those average drivers feel like they are the one in control but if you have any skills at all MDM is totally useless.
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      08-12-2008, 06:04 PM   #107
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It's purely there to make those average drivers feel like they are the one in control but if you have any skills at all MDM is totally useless.
MDM takes away the ability to rotate the car with the throttle. It was about a 0.2s loss in the one turn.
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      08-13-2008, 12:20 AM   #108
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whats this got to do with M-school vs CCA?

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