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View Poll Results: what caliper
stock single piston 49 36.84%
Brembo multi piston 77 57.89%
brakes slow the car down... the point is to make it go Faster!!!!... who needs um... 7 5.26%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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      08-12-2008, 04:18 PM   #45
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Quote:
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so you have a tons of experience tracking m3's? ( I think not)
why not?

i have a good bit of track experience...
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      08-12-2008, 04:27 PM   #46
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so you have a tons of experience tracking m3's? ( I think not)


actually.. now that i think about it...

how much experience do you have?


ive had about 50 days on the track so far this year.... not all in a M...
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      08-12-2008, 06:45 PM   #47
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Quote:
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i bet your friend is Jonathan Czarny.... Onelap is 3 laps.. It would be hard to cook stock M5 brakes in that time...

it took me 5 laps...



But like you said.. what you can do with that money.... in the poll money is not an issue.. but in real life.. it is.....

but i wont be doing a BBK either... i will just deal with the stock brakes...

Small world, Jon Czarny is a good friend of mine. His M5 has seen many track days at Sebring with 0 issues with the brakes. We actually had lunch a few weeks ago and joked about the BBK fad and the poseur value for most people that buy them. We have a pretty large group of "enthusiast" here in Orlando that mod the hell out of their car and will never consider a track day, but they will rationalize that they did it for performance gains. But, to keep it in the spirit of this thread if money were not an issue I guess why not give me some Alcons or Brembos.
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      08-12-2008, 06:53 PM   #48
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On another note I was watching the Edmunds video review of the GTR and they claim the GTR set a new braking record of 98 feet from 60 mph beating the previous record by 2 feet which was held by the E92 M3.
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      08-12-2008, 06:56 PM   #49
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Small world, Jon Czarny is a good friend of mine. His M5 has seen many track days at Sebring with 0 issues with the brakes. We actually had lunch a few weeks ago and joked about the BBK fad and the poseur value for most people that buy them. We have a pretty large group of "enthusiast" here in Orlando that mod the hell out of their car and will never consider a track day, but they will rationalize that they did it for performance gains. But, to keep it in the spirit of this thread if money were not an issue I guess why not give me some Alcons or Brembos.
yeap... he's a cool guy.. him and his buddy Jon that ran onelap with him....


tell him Leh said hey.....
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      08-12-2008, 06:57 PM   #50
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On another note I was watching the Edmunds video review of the GTR and they claim the GTR set a new braking record of 98 feet from 60 mph beating the previous record by 2 feet which was held by the E92 M3.
rite....


I actually took Jon for a ride in a new GTR...

: )
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      08-12-2008, 07:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
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actually.. now that i think about it...

how much experience do you have?


ive had about 50 days on the track so far this year.... not all in a M...
how many days in an M3? that was my comment - I am not saying you have track experience or not - from what you say you go twice a week, more than most of us - but how much in an M3.

me?
since 1998 in M3's among other BMW's. 10-12 days per year. my stock 2001 M3 with ATE bleu and HP+ pads held up just fine at local tracks known to fry brakes. granted it was not racing - just tracking days which is how I understood the question.
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      08-13-2008, 11:21 PM   #52
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none in a E9x M3.....
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      08-13-2008, 11:48 PM   #53
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I've been watching this thread now for a while. The real issue as I see it is the definition of performance for brakes.

The key parameters are:

Pad longevity - on the track it's about getting through an enduro. On the street it's lasting until the end of warranty. Similar goals, different issues.

Rigidity - pedal feel and brake modulation is really important when you're trail-braking, not so much when you're approaching a stop sign.

Maintainability - swapping pads at the track means easy access to the pads themselves. It's not a factor for the dealer or independent mechanic, in fact for them slower might just be better.

Cost - OEM is all about cost. Simpler structures cost less.

Endurance - Simpler stuff lasts longer. Duh.

So what does this mean as far as 6-piston brakes vs. floating caliper single piston brakes?

The floating caliper brakes are cheaper, and with small pads (shorter life) they're as rigid as multi-pot calipers. With fewer parts to go wrong, they'll last longer too. As to stopping power, they're just fine.

Multi-piston brakes are more demanding as far as rotor run-out is concerned - they don't compensate automatically for wobbly wheel bearings. They're much quicker to change pads on, and they have the capacity to hold much larger pads without the risk of the pads actually bending under load.

As for cooling and actual braking power, the two designs will be similar in performance. Cooling is more a factor of air flow and rotor design than the caliper layout.

So, it's really a case of horses for courses. Multi-pots go on race cars because you can run larger pads and change them faster. Floating calipers go on OEM setups because they're cheaper to build, they last longer in long-term service and they are more forgiving of rotor runout issues.

As far as how well your brakes will do at getting you stopped the next time you use them, either on the track or in traffic, is more a function of rotor design and pad selection than the number of pistons.
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      08-14-2008, 11:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
how many days in an M3? that was my comment - I am not saying you have track experience or not
Leh is extremely humble, more so than most. I've been familiar with his track work for a few years, starting with the STI (the white one with gold wheels and the injen intake), to the P-cars. Go to Google video and search for
'Leh Keen' and entertain yourself for a bit....some very nice driving there.
Here's one I like from Watkins Glenn-


Again, he is very humble and I'm amazed he's stayed in this riduculous discussion for this long.

The original question was wouldwe choose the stock brakes or Brembo 6/4 pots from the factory? Like when filling out our order form, one of the costless options would be Brembo 6/4 brakes or leave them stock.
I cannot fathom how anyone would not check that box, especially if you go to the track (which is where this car belongs).
Think about if you would really not check that box...
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      08-14-2008, 11:27 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
Leh is extremely humble, more so than most. I've been familiar with his track work for a few years, starting with the STI (the white one with gold wheels and the injen intake), to the P-cars. Go to Google video and search for
'Leh Keen' and entertain yourself for a bit....some very nice driving there.
Here's one I like from Watkins Glenn-


Again, he is very humble and I'm amazed he's stayed in this riduculous discussion for this long.
Good God!

I checked the BBK box.
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      08-15-2008, 11:21 PM   #56
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Nice post Kingleh just some highlights from your info from the forum members:
those whom use their M3 as intended @ the track:

1.i'll just say this...before i knew how many pistons there were in the stock brakes, i said the brakes were the only thing that could remotely be improved. i'm not saying the stock brakes are lame, but there is a lot of room for improvement.

2.I am getting the Rotora system when I can do it. I already spoke to Loren and have the system on my current E46...it was a HUGE positive change and I can't wait to get another set of red cherries for the new car.

3.Fluid boiled on two different days though. Needs to be upgraded...

4.After this quote(Originally Posted by masmole
I vote stock and I track quite often, and with many different cars in the past. Been attending DE's and open track days since 1999. I've experienced 2 full seasons on my heavier E60 M5 with a nearly identical caliper design as the E92 M3 and those brakes were stellar for even longer 30 minute sessions,)

the truth comes out--Maby you gotta mash the pedal a lil harder!... i experience fade with a E60 M5 in 5 laps.. on a track that is very nice to brakes.... Autobahn and Road America (assuming thats where your tracking most) are much harder on brakes then the place i was at (Roebling Road)....

anyways.. i lost trust in the brakes after the 4th lap.. then on the 5th i was having to brake 50 feet earlier...

5. I HAVE to throw in an IDIOTIC post by ARTPE -others subcumb to 'bling', BMW doesn't
(obviously Art cant spell TRACK!)

6.The BBKs from Brembo and Stoptech both offer over 20 pounds in weight savings as well. If money was no object, you would be crazy to pick the OEM brakes.

7.No doubt, there are better things you can do for the money. The ROI on BBK for the M3 is very small. But this is a money is no object question according to KINGLEH so the answer to the poll is a no brainer.

8.ACE 996 has the best clear headed post-Single piston brakes ...OK...if someone would find ONE race team that prefers the sliders over multipiston Iwould be amazed. Funny how every car I've ever seen that has an ability (within the rules) to change the brakes on a car
for racing goes to Brembo/Alcon/Stoptech/AP. I've never seen a team stick with sliders.

Sliders over Brembos...that's not even funny.

9.This is FUN! ARTPE comes up with more IDIOCY -"in case you didn't realize...the e9x M3 IS a STREET car.." I guess NOBODY GOES TO THE TRACK with a M3? what the crap am I passing all the time then?

10. Kingleh how do you put up with ART?

11. Ace comes through AGAIN-
Someone please find one race team (non-poseur bling people) that chooses to stay with the stock sliders for their braking needs.... just one...

12. Wheres M3 kevin and SeriousM?

13.heck if money were no cost lets just have carbon ceramic brakes. (Let ME tell you DAMN good choice same brakes on my car!)

14.ACE AGAIN (ARTPE he is KILLING YOU!!!)Exactly why I love my Brembos on my STI and exactly why I would love them on my (within two weeks) M3 coupe. It would certainly be disappointing if my new M3 needed upgaded calipers for HPDEs with R-compounds.

Guess which brakes found their way onto the new ALMS M3???

"Front brake system: Six-piston aluminium brake calipers, inner-vented grey-cast iron brake disks 380mm in diameter

Rear brake system: Four-piston aluminium brake calipers, grey-cast iron brake disk, 332mm in diameter"

If the stock hardware is so good, why didn't they use it???...

Be good,
TomK

15. Poor Kingleh having to put up with this crap--thats just not true...
driving hard enough... you will cook stock M brakes.....
drive harder!

16.King starts hitting harder-i bet your friend is Jonathan Czarny.... Onelap is 3 laps.. It would be hard to cook stock M5 brakes in that time...
it took me 5 laps...
But like you said.. what you can do with that money.... in the poll money is not an issue.. but in real life.. it is.....
but i wont be doing a BBK either... i will just deal with the stock brakes...

16.Kingleh keeps speaking the truth--- actually.. now that i think about it...
how much experience do you have? (probably NONE otherwise he would have
cooked his brakes)
ive had about 50 days on the track so far this year.... not all in a M...

17.LEH comes back with
a great comment after some idiot posted a braking record wiht the E92 Pssssss ON THE TRACK YOU STOP MORE THAN ONCE IDIOT!)
rite....
I actually took Jon for a ride in a new GTR...
: )

18.GAWD here is a guy who read the WHOLE THREAD and he comes up with this!:
As far as how well your brakes will do at getting you stopped the next time you use them, either on the track or in traffic, is more a function of rotor design and pad selection than the number of pistons.

NO! TRACK WILL MELT YOUR STOCK BRAKES IN 5 LAPS Sheesh!

19.AND FINALLY ACE99 FINISHES this with this comment LOADED with Truth and video of Lehs driving and experience:Leh is extremely humble, more so than most. I've been familiar with his track work for a few years, starting with the STI (the white one with gold wheels and the injen intake), to the P-cars. Go to Google video and search for
'Leh Keen' and entertain yourself for a bit....some very nice driving there.
Here's one I like from Watkins Glenn-


Again, he is very humble and I'm amazed he's stayed in this riduculous discussion for this long.

The original question was wouldwe choose the stock brakes or Brembo 6/4 pots from the factory? Like when filling out our order form, one of the costless options would be Brembo 6/4 brakes or leave them stock.
I cannot fathom how anyone would not check that box, especially if you go to the track (which is where this car belongs).
Think about if you would really not check that box...


Leh THIS is my LAST post on this forum. I was appalled at the continued idiocy of the people here. I asked a simple question last week and got blasted mostly by the children here. I dont know how a serious MDriver can stay on this forum. This discussion alone shows you that you cant ask a regular question without pure idiocy coming to fore.

The question from ACE BEGS to be ANSWERED!!!!!
SHOW ME ONE RACE TEAM THAT USES SINGLE PISTON CALIPERS!!!!!!!!!

Never was answered (We know why)

Leh I asked this question on the Forums.rennlist.com and go to the 997 GT3 forum. We all track (90%) and there are many that have Mcars NONE with stock brakes.
They all said that you have to change to TRACK!!!
One Guy Jeff from the South and callsign on Rennlist is FRAYED has had
A Ferrari 430, a 996 GT3, a 997 GT3 and he keeps coming back to his M3 (not a
E92) to track GREAT car BUT IT HAS TRACK BRAKES HULLO!!!!!!

Leh I welcome you to Rennlist.
Also 6 Speed online.com/forums probably has a more mature forum than here.
with a BMW forum there.
Seems as though a bunch of kids like ARTPE (an engineer!LOL!!!!) and M3Kevin
and SeriousM bring this whole forum down. Maybe mommy has a M3 and Art
posts to pretend he knows how to drive.

Good Luck to you guys and if someone sees my GT3 at Willow springs,
ButtonWillow, or Fontana PLEASE come by and say hello!! (Adults ONLY that
means You ARTPE and M3Kevin!! Probably cant afford a wrist band!)
My GT3 is easy to spot GT silver CF rear spoiler Fikse wheels with Dark spokes
I run with POC or Speedventurs or PCA and I have been to VARA events too.
Hope to see you guys (adults) on other forums.
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      08-16-2008, 04:19 PM   #57
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Leh THIS is my LAST post on this forum. .
applause.....



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      08-17-2008, 11:13 AM   #58
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wow.....

'that escelated rather quikly'.....




i dont know what to say.... bout that...


but i do know.. that this poll is pretty crazy.... 34 to 34 rite now..... dead nuts tie....
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      08-17-2008, 03:52 PM   #59
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I drove back to back laps on the Nurburgring and the brakes were fading bad on the second lap. I'm going to order some Brembos when I get back home.
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      08-17-2008, 04:31 PM   #60
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I drove back to back laps on the Nurburgring and the brakes were fading bad on the second lap. I'm going to order some Brembos when I get back home.
I beleive you. however were they stock pads? thats what 14 miles per lap? thats a gruelling test. with merely a change to track pads or racing pads at a fraction of the price its likely the issue would be resolved.
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      08-17-2008, 04:34 PM   #61
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Quote:
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I beleive you. however were they stock pads? thats what 14 miles per lap? thats a gruelling test. with merely a change to track pads or racing pads at a fraction of the price its likely the issue would be resolved.
Sorry, Somehow, I don't think logic, common sense or experience will win this one. This argument is going to go on for a loooooong time.
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      08-17-2008, 06:09 PM   #62
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Sorry, Somehow, I don't think logic, common sense or experience will win this one. This argument is going to go on for a loooooong time.

there are no winners.

If you are racing - then use a BBK if allowed by the rules. however many classes require stock calipers and such cars do quite well with racing pads.

For track events stock brakes should work fine with track pads. just like one has to manage thier tires and not overdrive and overheat them, the same is possible for brakes. It seems to me more beginners cook thier brakes as they tend to oversue them. just my 2 cent.
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      08-18-2008, 01:47 AM   #63
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Quote:
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I beleive you. however were they stock pads? thats what 14 miles per lap? thats a gruelling test. with merely a change to track pads or racing pads at a fraction of the price its likely the issue would be resolved.
Stock pads. What do you recommend for aftermarket pads?
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      08-18-2008, 04:21 AM   #64
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Wow....just, wow!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace996 View Post
Leh is extremely humble, more so than most. I've been familiar with his track work for a few years, starting with the STI (the white one with gold wheels and the injen intake), to the P-cars. Go to Google video and search for
'Leh Keen' and entertain yourself for a bit....some very nice driving there.
Here's one I like from Watkins Glenn-


Again, he is very humble and I'm amazed he's stayed in this riduculous discussion for this long.
OMFG!! Did anyone else besides Brad & me watch that video. Leh, you were passing people like they were standing still. My only question is why you started off so far back in the pack when your lap times were so much faster than everyone else's? OR, were we seeing you lap other cars?

I checked Brembo BBK, but admittedly I'm a little partial because BPS is a Brembo dealer. :-)

Here's one bit of experience I can offer. I just got my new E92 M3 last Monday. I've spent the past month parting out my E46 M3. I had an AP Racing BBK with 6-pistons front and 4-pistons rear. It was a huge shock after driving that car for 3 years with aftermarket brakes to go back to stock. I'm just amazed how much braking power I've lost on that car. Compared to the AP kit, the pedal feels mushy and the travel is at least twice as far before the car begins to slow. They WILL stop, but you have have to stand on them a little more.

Now the NEW car...one of the things I was most impressed with the E92 M3 was how much better the brakes are than the stock E46 M3. BUT...I don't personally believe you can have too much stopping power, AND they still feel mushy compared to my old AP Racing BBK.

My car only has 300 miles, but as soon as it is broken in, the mods will begin and Brembo it right at the top of the list. Great brakes, great people to work with, and a recognizable name that will add prestige to your car. The stock brakes are good, but I want that super car feeling I had in my E46 M3.

Brembo here I come!! My $0.02.

Bob
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      08-18-2008, 10:48 AM   #65
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Stock pads. What do you recommend for aftermarket pads?

I ran my e46 M3 with stock brakes and Hawk HP plus pads. they held up fine at Cal Speedway and laguna seca - both hard on brakes.

obviosely a BBK is better - but hi-po pads has a much bigger bang for the buck.
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      08-18-2008, 01:17 PM   #66
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OMFG!! Did anyone else besides Brad & me watch that video. Leh, you were passing people like they were standing still. My only question is why you started off so far back in the pack when your lap times were so much faster than everyone else's? OR, were we seeing you lap other cars?

I checked Brembo BBK, but admittedly I'm a little partial because BPS is a Brembo dealer. :-)

Here's one bit of experience I can offer. I just got my new E92 M3 last Monday. I've spent the past month parting out my E46 M3. I had an AP Racing BBK with 6-pistons front and 4-pistons rear. It was a huge shock after driving that car for 3 years with aftermarket brakes to go back to stock. I'm just amazed how much braking power I've lost on that car. Compared to the AP kit, the pedal feels mushy and the travel is at least twice as far before the car begins to slow. They WILL stop, but you have have to stand on them a little more.

Now the NEW car...one of the things I was most impressed with the E92 M3 was how much better the brakes are than the stock E46 M3. BUT...I don't personally believe you can have too much stopping power, AND they still feel mushy compared to my old AP Racing BBK.

My car only has 300 miles, but as soon as it is broken in, the mods will begin and Brembo it right at the top of the list. Great brakes, great people to work with, and a recognizable name that will add prestige to your car. The stock brakes are good, but I want that super car feeling I had in my E46 M3.

Brembo here I come!! My $0.02.

Bob
i qualified first for that race... but got DQd for blocking on the warmup lap for the qualy session.. me and 2 buddy's (they were both in GT3 Cup cars) decided to block the guys behind us so we could get clean laps..... the organizes didn't like that... so i got in trouble... my 2 buddy's didn't tho.. they are the last 2 cars i pass in the video.... the white 997 cup and the green 996 cup... the video is of the first part of the Sprint race.... i started last....
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