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      08-06-2008, 05:04 PM   #67
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A graph of MDM intrusion on acceleration out of a turn.

Red is without MDM, black was with.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rjsams/M...28147870404594

I marked the point at which I tried to get on the power in both cases.
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      08-06-2008, 10:58 PM   #68
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Why is it offensive to ask someone giving you advice on a subject for their qualifications on the subject?
because your ego shows thru in most your quotes - its obvious you think you are the fastest and we are all slow.

I agree TC totally off is always faster. most of us are running track days for fun and have some self-preservation instilled in us. we are not running for top times to prove we are the fastest out there.
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      08-06-2008, 11:09 PM   #69
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because your ego shows thru in most your quotes - its obvious you think you are the fastest and we are all slow.
No, there are a some very good drivers here. I just know BS when I see it and call it out.

I still have a lot to learn, no doubt. Heck, just last weekend I got some great advice from my former autocross co-driver. But if you want me to listen to you, show me you are doing something I can learn from...

No offense but I am skeptical of unkown internet posters that show up and immediatly talk smack.
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      08-06-2008, 11:27 PM   #70
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No, there are a some very good drivers here. I just know BS when I see it and call it out.

I still have a lot to learn, no doubt. Heck, just last weekend I got some great advice from my former autocross co-driver. But if you want me to listen to you, show me you are doing something I can learn from...

No offense but I am skeptical of unkown internet posters that show up and immediatly talk smack.
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Its not hard on the car if you drive slow.

However, if you do push the car things will wear out and/or break pretty quickly.
the BS here is your denial of your large ego.
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      08-07-2008, 11:23 AM   #71
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Just a quick note on my experiences...

I have attened BMW High Performance Driving Schools/Event (HPDE) and many others over the years. In a nutshell, they are all pretty mcuh the same.

My recommendation would be to find any HPDE and just go for it! There are MANY great private clubs that offer instruction.

I have been tracking for 11 years and instructing the last 4. I instruct with private clubs and for one track that offers its own trackdays/instruction. Every club I have been to has good instructors...and I have been to many! You really cannot miss! Just pick one and go!
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      08-07-2008, 11:29 AM   #72
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Quote:
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Laguna 1:42
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...26878137&hl=en

THill 2:04
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19264416&hl=en

I've since gone faster at THill but didn't have the camera at the time.

Point is I hear a lot of people talk about "smooth is fast" and then never go out and back it up. I always laughed when those same people would tell me that Fernando Alonso drove the wrong way and would be faster if he was "smoother".

Enigma, what were you driving at T-Hill? A 2:04 is smokin'. I used to run 2:12's in my E36 M3 on stock tires.
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      08-07-2008, 12:16 PM   #73
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Enigma, what were you driving at T-Hill? A 2:04 is smokin'. I used to run 2:12's in my E36 M3 on stock tires.
That was my Elise on RA-1s
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      08-07-2008, 12:42 PM   #74
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That was my Elise on RA-1s
NICE!
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      08-07-2008, 12:58 PM   #75
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That was my Elise on RA-1s

Did you run the BMWCCA event at Infineon on March 8/9th this year?
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      08-07-2008, 01:09 PM   #76
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Did you run the BMWCCA event at Infineon on March 8/9th this year?
Hell no.

I very much enjoyed the BMW CCA before I moved to the west coast. However, the group out here was no fun what so ever to drive with.

I went to one BMW even back in 06 at thill. They asked me to slow down because I was catching the other students too quickly. A few weeks later I put a stopwatch on the video to see about how quick my "excessive speed" was. It was a smoking 2:21. Think about that, 17s of a good lap for the car was considered driving too fast at a BMW CCA event.

In 2 days I never had a lap where I wasn't stuck behind someone for at least half the lap. It just wasn't fun. The other things that irritated me is their "instructors know everything" attitude, even when they are giving you completly wrong advice. Like:

Ins: take the wide line in 2.
Me: But this isn't a BMW
Ins: The line is the same for all cars



Now, their autocross program is great
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      08-07-2008, 01:55 PM   #77
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Hell no.

I very much enjoyed the BMW CCA before I moved to the west coast. However, the group out here was no fun what so ever to drive with.

I went to one BMW even back in 06 at thill. They asked me to slow down because I was catching the other students too quickly. A few weeks later I put a stopwatch on the video to see about how quick my "excessive speed" was. It was a smoking 2:21. Think about that, 17s of a good lap for the car was considered driving too fast at a BMW CCA event.

In 2 days I never had a lap where I wasn't stuck behind someone for at least half the lap. It just wasn't fun. The other things that irritated me is their "instructors know everything" attitude, even when they are giving you completly wrong advice. Like:

Ins: take the wide line in 2.
Me: But this isn't a BMW
Ins: The line is the same for all cars



Now, their autocross program is great

I happened to be in SF for the weekend and drove out to Infineon and saw a few Elise so I wondered if you were one of them.

Eh...like I wrote above..... the BMW instructors are racers who also teach, they are top pros. You always get a mixbag with club instructors.
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      08-07-2008, 01:57 PM   #78
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Eh...like I wrote above..... the BMW instructors are racers who also teach, they are top pros. You always get a mixbag with club instructors.
I have said before, some are great, other much less so.
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      08-07-2008, 02:14 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
A graph of MDM intrusion on acceleration out of a turn.

Red is without MDM, black was with.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rjsams/M...28147870404594

I marked the point at which I tried to get on the power in both cases.
Enigma - cool graph. did you try any such graph comparing EDC normal vs. sport? that would be interesting.
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      08-07-2008, 04:49 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Hell no.

I very much enjoyed the BMW CCA before I moved to the west coast. However, the group out here was no fun what so ever to drive with.

I went to one BMW even back in 06 at thill. They asked me to slow down because I was catching the other students too quickly. A few weeks later I put a stopwatch on the video to see about how quick my "excessive speed" was. It was a smoking 2:21. Think about that, 17s of a good lap for the car was considered driving too fast at a BMW CCA event.

In 2 days I never had a lap where I wasn't stuck behind someone for at least half the lap. It just wasn't fun. The other things that irritated me is their "instructors know everything" attitude, even when they are giving you completly wrong advice. Like:

Ins: take the wide line in 2.
Me: But this isn't a BMW
Ins: The line is the same for all cars



Now, their autocross program is great
LOL!!! That is funny as I noticed your line into 2 was not "the norm". lol. You obviously know the late entry/apex we teach for T2 at Thill! Yeah, it is a "safer" line to do it late.....all intructors are supposed to teach it, unless you go in the instructors/racers group, then you can do whatever the hell you want. lol
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      08-07-2008, 05:04 PM   #81
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LOL!!! That is funny as I noticed your line into 2 was not "the norm". lol. You obviously know the late entry/apex we teach for T2 at Thill! Yeah, it is a "safer" line to do it late.
Actually the line on that fast lap isn't my norm either. While its the fastest sector time I ever did through T2, its not really one I want to repeat. That last 0.1s over the normal stay tight longer then track out under power was not worth the "please don't let me die here" moment I had right after I turned in.

The data logger showed me turning in at about 2mph more than normal and all I could do at that point was go with it and be ready to drive straight off if it came to it. Lifting would have spun me off so I kept the car stable hoping for enough track to make it. I'll happily give up those 2mph to not do that again. I'll stick with the minor overbrake, adjust, and accelerate those 2mph back keeping the car stable.

[edit] For those that don't know thill T2 is a long left hand turn thats near a constant radius. The turn is in many ways longer than the following straight. Most light cars take a tight line though it to minimize the time in the turn. I tried it because I saw the spec miatas running the inside line. The data showed it to be faster so I stuck with it.

Heavier cars that have a difficult time folling the tighter line tend to setup outside to maximize the radius of the turn. But the lighter cars tend to steal the apex when you start wide just by outbraking the heavier car on the inside.

[edit 2] gack, amazing how a minor typo can make you say exactly the opposite of what you meant.
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      08-07-2008, 07:23 PM   #82
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Heavier cars that have a difficult time following the tighter line and tend to setup outside to maximize the radius of the turn. But the lighter cars tend to steal the apex when you start wide just by outbraking the heavier car on the inside.
Couldn't have explained it better myself! Different lines for different cars. That is why you see spec miata's on differnet lines that GT3's, etc. A miaita would be more of a "momentum car"...a GT3 is more of a "point and shoot car". lol. Good explaination in your post about how different cars take different lines.....for those that are interested.

Too often at "schools", the instruction is in Novice and Low Intermediate....then, instruction becomes optional....it is at this point where people don't learn the little things about altered lines, trail braking particular corners, etc, etc, etc. Even though I have been tracking a while, I STILL ask a fellow instruction to sit with me once in a while! It is amazing on how a second set of eyes can pick up on the little things you could do better, or gives you ideas on different ways to approach, apex, and exit a corner.

that brings up a good point...sorry so OT....if you get signed off and are able to run solo, go ahead, but if you want to improve, get all the instruction you can! A good instructor will be able to see where you are at, and will start to foster you even more.
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      08-07-2008, 07:26 PM   #83
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that brings up a good point...sorry so OT....if you get signed off and are able to run solo, go ahead, but if you want to improve, get all the instruction you can! A good instructor will be able to see where you are at, and will start to foster you even more.
This is why I got a data logger and camera for the car. I may not always have someone in the car but if something happens or I have a question I can get a second set of eyes on the data even if they were not there at the time.

Sector times are an amazing tool when combined with video from the event. You can see what worked and didn't work then appy that to your next time on the track.
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      08-08-2008, 02:39 AM   #84
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the BMW instructors are racers who also teach, they are top pros. You always get a mixbag with club instructors.
the west coast instructors are problly the best group of instructors out west if not in the USA..... most of them club race, some race nationally, some race professionally, some have raced internationally, some instruct for BMW USA, some instruct at the 'Ring and all over the country and world. i Have been to several other west coast events and believe me the instructors there were not even close in caliber (not to mention the safety or lack thereof).

Remember the BMW CCA event is a school - there is no trophy at the end of the day , no glory, no timed laps, no top time of the day..... just fun and learning. If you want to learn in a safe atmosphere the CCA schools are a great place to start. and in A and B group they now allow unlimited passing with a point by. If you want to race balls, out door to door , bump and grind the go somehwhere else.
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      08-08-2008, 03:10 AM   #85
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Remember the BMW CCA event is a school - there is no trophy at the end of the day , no glory, no timed laps, no top time of the day..... just fun and learning. If you want to learn in a safe atmosphere the CCA schools are a great place to start.
I am all for safe, but you really do have to be going fast enough that there is some challenge or you never really learn anything.
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      08-08-2008, 08:57 AM   #86
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I am all for safe, but you really do have to be going fast enough that there is some challenge or you never really learn anything.
Alright already. We all now know how awesomely fast you are. Please just let the rest of us slow, plodding, DSC reliant, BMWCCA school attending dolts enjoy our discussions. I'm sure there is a forum for Elise driving, camera-data logger toting, ego-maniacs-that-have-never-raced-door-to-door to discuss their awesomeness. Please go there.
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      08-08-2008, 11:29 AM   #87
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Alright already. We all now know how awesomely fast you are. Please just let the rest of us slow, plodding, DSC reliant, BMWCCA school attending dolts enjoy our discussions. I'm sure there is a forum for Elise driving, camera-data logger toting, ego-maniacs-that-have-never-raced-door-to-door to discuss their awesomeness. Please go there.
Read the tread title again. It was a comparison of two schools. I know you guys don't like my opinion but I don't want to see others go through what I did. I 100% vote for the M school.
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      08-08-2008, 11:42 AM   #88
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Read the tread title again. It was a comparison of two schools. I know you guys don't like my opinion but I don't want to see others go through what I did. I 100% vote for the M school.
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