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      08-07-2008, 01:58 PM   #89
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Thanks Tim for that another adult post.

You know what I this is mostly my fault I thought that more M3 owners tracked their cars.
This must not be the case if you did you would know the single piston BMW design would not
last. I have seen alot of previous generation M3s at the track I assumed that the E92 M3
would be on the track too but I can tell from posts like Art that many dont ever see the track
sorry for my incorrect assumption.

Seems there are 2 trolls M3Kevin joins the list another who can't read
You seem to miss the point I owned a Z4M with the same outdated M brake design
Not to mention the 2 335is and my X5 albeit non of those have been on the track
with that and the 3 911s all four on the track
As soon as you show you can read please come back and join the conversation.

Again I thank those who participated and didnt take this an insult my question was an
honest one. WHy does BMW put an outdated design on the M3. That has been answered
and to those whom were adult about it and honestly admitted the design is beneath the car I appreciate your response.
So the summary was the BMW engineers didnt contract with a real performance brake company like Brembo till AFTER the M3 came out We will see the proper brake package come out next year or the 10 model. The proof is the 135i already is showing that BMW knows it fields a inferior brake setup on the Mcars and is correcting the problem. Although I think the 135 brakes are over boosted which is a typical BMW trait. Seems like they overboost to make up for the single design. The first 335i I had was VERY grabby
For you guys who felt it necessary to feel insulted and hurl insults I am a bit ashamed that this kind of behavior came in this type of forum. This rarely happens in the GT3 forums. Maybe the higher cost brings a more mature driver. What I saw here bordered on reminding me what the Nissan forum is like or even the Corvette forum are like. A bunch of bench racers quoting magazine tests from Road and Track or C & D.
Let me advise you that if you EVER bring those up in a Porsche forum or a Ferrari forum you WILL be attacked IMMEDIATELY. To get better information go to the track and hang out there and see what the people there are doing. They KNOW better than
ANY car mag or go to some serious tuners like GMG racing in Los Angeles or Sharkwerks in the Bay area for Porsche examples. GMG races GT3 RSRs in the Speed world Challenge races and brings their track knowledge to its customers. They have helped me set up my 997 GT3 Sharkwerks provided me my exhaust and my FIKSE wheel package.

For those of you like M3 Kevin that dont think I know about cars, well I dont like to bring up credentials because most of the time in adult forums its not necessary. I have been a special contributer to Adrian Strether when he wrote the book "the 993 companion" and his 996 book of the same topic. Look in the beginning pages to confirm. I also contribute to the Porsche Marketing letter magazine. I write articles that pertain to modding your newer 911 from 993s and newer. I cover tuners like GMG Sharkwerks and FIKSE.

Now I will tell you the reason behind my post. I absolutely LOVE my X5 4.8iS. Its my daily. I have 30K miles on it. I dont want to sell it or trade it in. I want an other daily and after driving my wifes new 335i I just love that BMW too. But I would like a little more spirited car than hers. I am seriously thinking of the M3 for my Daily and occasional track car. The GT3 to me may be the last "Great" 911 as Porsche is moving to its wet sump design cheaper motor for its GT cars and even the Turbo. So I may be done with Porsche. I dont want to trash the GT3 anymore as I am thinking it may be a classic. THe M3 seems to be the one that can fill all those issues. In spite of the brake package. That is easily fixed and not a major stumbling block for me.
I did NOT come in here to start a flame war. I dont know the forum that well. I have been insulated by the Rennlist GT3 forum as it stays on topic and flame wars are rare without a troll coming in but they are quickly discovered. The GT3 community is small.
I probably wont add anything more here as I was hoping for better.
I WILL probably lurk and will post at the 335 forum since we had to turn in the first one and I can help people who run into issues with the oil cooler and fuel pumps since We had both on our first one.
I thank Radiaton Joe for not getting upset and returning some good info too.

If anyone wants to get ahold of me PM me I would be happy to carry on an adult conversation about cars.
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      08-07-2008, 02:19 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT3 Tim View Post
I saw that one poster from Ireland noted that he had about 20 track days or so and that in higher heats, around laps 4 or 5, he would get a hint of fade. On the stock pads, I do not doubt it. With aftermarket pads, who knows? A fluid upgrade would help for sure. With cross drilled rotors on the M, I do NOT think off gasing was the cause of the fade...rather, I bet the fluid was starting to boil a bit. With a fluid upgrade, I bet the difference would be marked. I guess I will have to wait a bit longer and just do this myself and see what difference it makes.
In my e46 I boiled the brake fluid more than once. That was running upgraded brake fluid. I have not tried the new cars brakes on the race track. Quite frankly due to my very poor experience with previous BMW brakes I am very hesitant to take the car to the track.

Much like the GT3 of your I drove my Elise at buttonwillow on the oem brake pads. No fade despite it being 100+ outside. I did switch to R4 pads when the stock ones wore out because I wanted a different CF. Again, same equation, more rotor area per car weight, better ventilation of the rotor, better caliper design.

I should also note than on my E46 I recorded rotor temps that were still north of 1000F, after a cool down lap and returning to paddoc. Highest I managed on my elise was ~420F under similar conditions.

The caliper design is only part of the problem. The bigger problem for BMW is they have not made an effort in the past to control rotor temps. Perhaps the E92 is suddenly better, but I am not betting on it.
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      08-07-2008, 02:46 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
+1
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      08-07-2008, 07:02 PM   #92
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GT3 Tim - well put. I agree 100% having owned a 996 Iron Brake GT3 and also owning an M3.
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      08-07-2008, 09:11 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
Thanks Tim for that another adult post.

You know what I this is mostly my fault I thought that more M3 owners tracked their cars.
This must not be the case if you did you would know the single piston BMW design would not
last. I have seen alot of previous generation M3s at the track I assumed that the E92 M3
would be on the track too but I can tell from posts like Art that many dont ever see the track
sorry for my incorrect assumption.
wait so one guy calls you out (because you were wrong) and you associate that with m3 owners not tracking their cars.

Why have you made the association between more caliper pistons = higher performance.

The number of pistons a caliper has is one of least important factors in a brake systems performance.

Granted higher performance brake systems tend to have more pistons... but that doesnt mean the multiple pistons are responsible for the extra performance... other factors have a much larger effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
So the summary was the BMW engineers didnt contract with a real performance brake company like Brembo till AFTER the M3 came out We will see the proper brake package come out next year or the 10 model. The proof is the 135i already is showing that BMW knows it fields a inferior brake setup on the Mcars and is correcting the problem.
Once again... the 135i does not have better brakes then the m3... it has more pistons in the calipers... but that again is the association your making between number of pistons and performance, which just isnt accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
For you guys who felt it necessary to feel insulted and hurl insults I am a bit ashamed that this kind of behavior came in this type of forum. This rarely happens in the GT3 forums. Maybe the higher cost brings a more mature driver. What I saw here bordered on reminding me what the Nissan forum is like or even the Corvette forum are like. A bunch of bench racers quoting magazine tests from Road and Track or C & D.
Let me advise you that if you EVER bring those up in a Porsche forum or a Ferrari forum you WILL be attacked IMMEDIATELY. To get better information go to the track and hang out there and see what the people there are doing. They KNOW better than
ANY car mag or go to some serious tuners like GMG racing in Los Angeles or Sharkwerks in the Bay area for Porsche examples. GMG races GT3 RSRs in the Speed world Challenge races and brings their track knowledge to its customers. They have helped me set up my 997 GT3 Sharkwerks provided me my exhaust and my FIKSE wheel package.
Im sorry but your argument is that your butt dyno was a more accurate braking performance measuring device then the 2 data recorders c&d used in their braking test results.

Then you made some preposterous argument that because 2 factors in a comparison test (that had nothing to do with braking) weren't performance orientated... so now every test c&d does is BS.

As for you basically saying porsche and ferrari forums are better because their cars are more expensive well IMO thats a pretty stupid thing to say which isnt true. But hey if you dont want to be on here... no skin off any of our backs.
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      08-07-2008, 11:06 PM   #94
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He's basically posting here because the GT3 lacks comfort - and he's thinking that the M3 is a good compromise between racing and comfort. Which he's right about. But he can't get past the fact that the M3 has 1 piston brakes vs 500 pistons like the GT3. Which obviously makes a better brake. (has nothing to do with the fact that the car is lighter, and the brakes pads are more purpose built, etc..)

Anyway - I have much respect for GT3Tim - no respect for this hoser PaulGT3. Suposed flight engineer and GPS engineer.
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      08-07-2008, 11:07 PM   #95
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GT3Paul - did you forget to wipe after your last post?
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      08-07-2008, 11:45 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
wait so one guy calls you out (because you were wrong) and you associate that with m3 owners not tracking their cars.

Why have you made the association between more caliper pistons = higher performance.

The number of pistons a caliper has is one of least important factors in a brake systems performance.

Granted higher performance brake systems tend to have more pistons... but that doesnt mean the multiple pistons are responsible for the extra performance... other factors have a much larger effect.

Once again... the 135i does not have better brakes then the m3... it has more pistons in the calipers... but that again is the association your making between number of pistons and performance, which just isnt accurate.

Im sorry but your argument is that your butt dyno was a more accurate braking performance measuring device then the 2 data recorders c&d used in their braking test results.

Then you made some preposterous argument that because 2 factors in a comparison test (that had nothing to do with braking) weren't performance orientated... so now every test c&d does is BS.

As for you basically saying porsche and ferrari forums are better because their cars are more expensive well IMO thats a pretty stupid thing to say which isnt true. But hey if you dont want to be on here... no skin off any of our backs.
A big +1 on all of this above.

A big part of the problem here is your attitude. This one below is a real winner showing a bit of your "true colors":

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3 View Post
For you guys who felt it necessary to feel insulted and hurl insults I am a bit ashamed that this kind of behavior came in this type of forum. This rarely happens in the GT3 forums. Maybe the higher cost brings a more mature driver.
Sure you had some pretty heated words and a good spat with a fellow here but you'll have to face it, you lost this argument. On top of that YOU are the fellow who really escalated the beginning of the strong words and sarcasm here in this thread. Look at your own post #65 in which you began seriously questioning Arts credentials.

You have yet to refute with any credible evidence whatsoever that multiple pistons = superior design. One of the biggest misconceptions out there about brakes.

No one is saying BMW brakes are superior to Porsche brakes for dedicated track work. Furthermore no one is saying BMW brakes are 100% track worthy. However, BMWs often out brake P cars weighing substantially less purely in terms of braking distance. Is that as important as fade, no not really, but it is a testament to many things being "right" with their systems.

Please don't forget these key things:

1. The "nice" "beautiful" "racy" MULTI-PISTON Brembo brakes on the 350Z SUCK, period. They are all about looks and not performance.
2. The 135i Brembo brakes may be a grade or two above these but if you swapped the M3 and 135i brakes systems the M3 would suffer immensely.
3. PISTON COUNT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT.

If you acknowledge and accept these three things I think most of us here will feel that the discussion was fruitful and just maybe you will have learned a little something new.

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      08-08-2008, 10:05 PM   #97
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Wow, this thread is like a combination "Mythbusters" and "General Hospital." Drama plus engineering . . .

I have been time trialing an E36 M3 with stock calipers, OEM Euro E36 M3 floating rotors in the front (same size as US, but 2-piece like the E92's for lighter weight and better heat dissipation) and running stainless steel lines, super blue fluid, and Performance friction race pads (PF 01 front, 97 rears). I removed the dust shield in the front for better cooling. Even running the car hard to its limit on near-slick race tires, the brakes do not fade (except if I let the pad thickness get down to a quarter thickness). I have driven lots of other people's cars and am equally impressed with the power, lack of fade, and longevity of my brakes.

I actually think BMW may have given the 1-series 6-piston brakes more for marketing reasons (to attract the STi/Evo/350Z crowd) than for performance reasons. I believe they use solid rotors on the 135i which are smaller than those used on the 335i's single piston set up. I'd take the single-piston M3 brakes any day.

I think no one denies how good Porsche's brakes are. They have always been known for their brakes. However, with small changes my E36 M3's have been equal to the Porsches I have braked against. I, for one, hope the M3s are up to the task of 10/10ths track work (at least on Toyo R888s or similar R-compounds). I assume it will require a change in brake fluid (minimum) and perhaps some higher temp pads. I will find out fairly soon. I am impressed with the brakes on back roads so far, but that is not much of a test.
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      08-08-2008, 10:38 PM   #98
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BMW used a multi-piston set-up on an M car almost 15 years ago...
iirc, possibly before Porsche did...
they did not see any advantage on a street car...so they stopped...

the brakes are only hardware...it's the drivers skill that makes a difference...

2 guys, same set-up...at the end of a race, the guy with more brake left will more times than not, be the faster...

there is much more to the science of braking that piston count, fixed vs sliding, etc.
but first you must know WHAT the brake does (they are used on may things, elevators, conveyors, various motor driven machines)...they convert kinetic energy into heat (energy) via friction...

the M3 brakes are way over designed:
SS lines
'stiffer' pad
hi-temp fluid
solid bushings

they will do just fine
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      08-08-2008, 10:43 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
A few comments, yes from another engineer, scientist and former brake designer and engineer...

Art: To calculate swept area (and swept area per weight of vehicle) you need to consider the area swept by the pad. So rotor diameter is a decent approximation for swept area but not perfect.

I completely side with Art on the magazine testing here. From the test gear, Futek and Racelogic to the methodology, it is pretty solid. As well the conclusions are solid. The Nissan with the lowest end, total poser Bembo system simply sucks. The brakes on this car are about looks above all else and this clearly shows that piston count is very low on the list of things that matter. No surprise that the 335i performs better. As well no surprise that the Z06 and PCCB and non PCCB cars exhibit less fade than the 335i.

Generally I heavily question a source. So I am sensitive the the poor quality of testing and evaluation that some car rags produce. In this case you just can not throw out the baby with the bath water.

It is my understanding of the carbon ceramic material used in the PCCB rotors that the principal advantages of the material are longevity and weight, much more so than fade resistance or braking power. However that being said the rotors are very likely not contributors to any fade in the system. That is likely the pads, fluid and brake lines. This could be improved but again PCCB brakes or not the Porsches are street cars, not race cars.
I knew that, i was only looking at order of magnitude...
measure from 'ridge' to 'ridge'

my point was, M3's are have more than adequate brakes...very good ones in fact...

as far as PCCB's, you are spot on: weight/life...but it doesn't hurt that they cost 10k$ either...

bingo! pads/fluid/brake lines...

Bosch states one disadvantage of the fixed caliper is that the transfer line crosses right over the edge of the rotor, the hottest point...
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      08-09-2008, 09:34 AM   #100
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brakes are a relative thing......all brakes will have the ability to "lock" a given wheel on a given car...... the differences come in how well they can handle heat (think fade).... any "sports" cars brakes with proper pads and fluid will be fine on the track for DE purposes and can be for racing, with a good driver and near stock power....

Everyone is hung up on the fact that the M3 has simple sliding calipers & not a fancy fixed 4-6-8 piston brembo style brake....but the fact remains that the rotor design (two piece) is as good as they come.....14.2" doesn't hurt either.....

I haven't tracked my M3 yet...but will next month....and I intend to test the limits of the brakes....
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      08-15-2008, 11:40 PM   #101
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BUMP PM I JUST GOT FROM "PAULGT3"

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulGT3
Just to not drag on the debate but thankfully
I asked the same question in the GT3 forum.
EVERYONE in the GT3 forum on Rennlist backed me
up BMWs brakes are INFERIOR.
Do a search in the 997GT3 forum under BMW brakes.
Since 90% of us track I know the M3 is under braked
The main problem was warping rotors
thanks for your immature post nitwit.
LOL.

Someone find the post on rennlist... i couldnt.
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      08-16-2008, 09:38 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
BUMP PM I JUST GOT FROM "PAULGT3"



LOL.

Someone find the post on rennlist... i couldnt.

nitwit? class act...

warping?
almost impossible with the cross-drilled, radial floating design
this allows for elastic expansion (and return) without deformation/distortion

it was a problem on older cars (e28, etc.), very heavy fast cars with too little brake...
they have fixed this issue
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      08-16-2008, 12:27 PM   #103
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Wow. Sorry guys, but I called this in the first page of the thread when I basically felt he was coming on here to start an argument. Don't care what his history on here is, after this thread, dudes lost all credibility and respect.

The worst part is BMW marketing dooped him. He is proof that BMW marketing knew exactly what they were doing when they put brembo kits on the 135i which was to get people to think that made the car brake better than regular not brembo kits that BMW and other manufacturers make so as to get people to buy the 135i. Obviously, BMW marketing was right when they thought the word "brembo" on the side of a brakes would improve sales.
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      08-16-2008, 12:47 PM   #104
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Quote:
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BUMP PM I JUST GOT FROM "PAULGT3"



LOL.

Someone find the post on rennlist... i couldnt.
its in off topic on rennlist
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      08-16-2008, 08:05 PM   #105
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its in off topic on rennlist
ahh you have to pay to access their off topic.
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      08-17-2008, 01:46 PM   #106
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      08-17-2008, 02:59 PM   #107
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      08-17-2008, 06:03 PM   #108
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maybe we should go to Rennslist and start trolling with some rude comments aboue high performance Volkswagens with engines in the wrong end? LOL!!!!!!!!

I say time to lock this thread.
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      08-18-2008, 07:10 PM   #109
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I've been lurking for a while and after seeing all of nonsense going on in here, I figured I would have a go. I'm not an engineer, but that doesn't make me any less or more knowledgeable on this subject. The man asked a legit question that had some very good answers, both for and against BMW's choice for the braking setup. Then some fanboys came out and without anything intelligent started spouting nonsense. I'll try to state this clearly. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THIS CAR WAS DESIGNED FOR THE STREET. However for the person that plans on tracking this car, like many M owners do, he would like to know why BMW took a less aggresive approach with the brakes. Many know Porsche has more of a track intent in mind, but some lower priced cars don't and they still have some higher technology built into their brakes. One thing I will say is on the racing circuit, Porsche is probably more known for their brakes than any other aspect of their cars. So there's nothing wrong with following their lead. But in my opinion, this was a cost cutting measure, not BMW's far superior expertise in brakes and deciding not to get caught up in the hype. Just like when Ford decided to keep a live axle in the back of the Mustang. They claimed that well most of our customers said they prefer the setup over an IRS due to the superior drag racing abilities and reliability. It was B.S., they did it to keep the cost of the Mustang down. I don't have a problem with this, but don't throw out a line of B.S. Call a spade a spade. This thread got even better when the "engineers" started name calling. It's sad when a group of enthusiasts can't have a decent debate on design and engineering aspects of a performance car. Most of you guys need to grow up, and calm down. Try to have an intelligent conversation where you actually listen to what the other person has to say, and not take an emotional stab at somebody for not having the same opinion as you.

He clearly stated that there was a performance AND aesthetic value to the more expensive brakes and he wanted to know why BMW chose what he believes to be an inferior setup. I'm pretty sure, outside of the fanboys, anyone that takes a subjective approach will probably tell you that the M3's brake setup is inferior to whats currently available on a lot of sports cars today, especially cars in the 70k price range on up.

Its a lot like the engine debate between low tech 2 valve pushrod American muscle V8's and high tech multi cam, 87 valve foreign sports cars. Some people prefer the higher technology in a high performance car, some people prefer the bottom line(i.e. power). I'd be willing to bet some of the snobs would have passed-out if BMW decided to replace the beloved Inline 6 with a relatively heavy 5.7L Single Cam 2 valver that revs out to 6 grand. It would probably get the job done, but its just not the essence of a German sports car. So why is it so hard to accept that BMW might have chosen the low road on brakes? Porsche, Ferrari, etc......don't put these multi piston unobtanium bits on their cars for marketing. Its for performance. You don't see carbon ceramic on cars competing in Grand Am for hype. They put them on these cars because they perform better than what they used to use.


1. It doesn't take an engineer to know that the Car and Driver test does nothing to replicate a track environment. As I'm an avid reader of C&D the first thing I realized when I read this test, was how unlike the track this test is. It's great for someone making 25 emergency stops in 20 second intervals. Who knows when someone would have to do this but this sidesteps many ways a manufacture might try to improve a cars braking performance. For instance this does nothing to show how well a manufacture has directed airflow to the braking system. On a track you never brake to zero, let alone 25 times. You brake from many different speeds, for many different lengths of times. If you were to take the average speed of each vehicle in this test(including stopped time) this average would be MUCH lower then the average speed on a race course. More speed equals more airflow. This is just one obvious aspect of this test that doesn't replicate what a car might see on the track. Since they used a Nismo package on the Z with more body cladding then a Pontiac Aztec, I wouldn't be surprised if airflow was a major issue on the car that the specialized Brembo package can't overcome. Since I own a Z without the Brembo package I can tell you that the brakes are terrible. I can barely get the ABS activate with aftermarket 19 inch wheels and rubber. I can assure you this brembo package out-brakes what I have on the touring model. A better test would be several different brake packages on the same car. In this test they are comparing the overall braking performance of a car, not of a particular system. Except for the 2 911's(one with the PCCB's). In this test they couldn't see a difference between the two because they couldn't get either of them to start fading, not because they both have the same performance. Put these cars in a 24 hour Le Mans, and then tell me if they perform the same. Ask any enthusiast that upgrades his brakes, and tell me if they don't feel a difference. Aside from measuring the increased pedal distance and increased pedal pressure to achieve the same braking results, this test does very little to measure feedback of the brake system which is probably the most important aspect of a braking system.

2. More pistons should mean a more uniform clamping area. I'm sure like gear ratios in a transmission, there becomes a point when more is useless or counterproductive, but even pad/rotor wear is a very important aspect of braking performance. It also has a direct correlation on braking feel. With more pistons pressing down on the rotor you should need less pressure exerted on the pad to get the same braking performance. With lighter carbon ceramic rotors there is less unsprung weight, which also means better performance in all aspects of racing (cornering, accelerating, decelerating, etc..), and also LESS HEAT for the same amount of stopping performance.

Well this is just my .02, its sad that this thread got mauled by a few idiots and some over-reactions. But it is a good question that should've led to a really good discussion.
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      08-18-2008, 08:51 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
I've been lurking for a while and after seeing all of nonsense going on in here, I figured I would have a go. I'm not an engineer, but that doesn't make me any less or more knowledgeable on this subject. The man asked a legit question that had some very good answers, both for and against BMW's choice for the braking setup. Then some fanboys came out and without anything intelligent started spouting nonsense. I'll try to state this clearly. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THIS CAR WAS DESIGNED FOR THE STREET. However for the person that plans on tracking this car, like many M owners do, he would like to know why BMW took a less aggresive approach with the brakes. Many know Porsche has more of a track intent in mind, but some lower priced cars don't and they still have some higher technology built into their brakes. One thing I will say is on the racing circuit, Porsche is probably more known for their brakes than any other aspect of their cars. So there's nothing wrong with following their lead. But in my opinion, this was a cost cutting measure, not BMW's far superior expertise in brakes and deciding not to get caught up in the hype. Just like when Ford decided to keep a live axle in the back of the Mustang. They claimed that well most of our customers said they prefer the setup over an IRS due to the superior drag racing abilities and reliability. It was B.S., they did it to keep the cost of the Mustang down. I don't have a problem with this, but don't throw out a line of B.S. Call a spade a spade. This thread got even better when the "engineers" started name calling. It's sad when a group of enthusiasts can't have a decent debate on design and engineering aspects of a performance car. Most of you guys need to grow up, and calm down. Try to have an intelligent conversation where you actually listen to what the other person has to say, and not take an emotional stab at somebody for not having the same opinion as you.

He clearly stated that there was a performance AND aesthetic value to the more expensive brakes and he wanted to know why BMW chose what he believes to be an inferior setup. I'm pretty sure, outside of the fanboys, anyone that takes a subjective approach will probably tell you that the M3's brake setup is inferior to whats currently available on a lot of sports cars today, especially cars in the 70k price range on up.

Its a lot like the engine debate between low tech 2 valve pushrod American muscle V8's and high tech multi cam, 87 valve foreign sports cars. Some people prefer the higher technology in a high performance car, some people prefer the bottom line(i.e. power). I'd be willing to bet some of the snobs would have passed-out if BMW decided to replace the beloved Inline 6 with a relatively heavy 5.7L Single Cam 2 valver that revs out to 6 grand. It would probably get the job done, but its just not the essence of a German sports car. So why is it so hard to accept that BMW might have chosen the low road on brakes? Porsche, Ferrari, etc......don't put these multi piston unobtanium bits on their cars for marketing. Its for performance. You don't see carbon ceramic on cars competing in Grand Am for hype. They put them on these cars because they perform better than what they used to use.


1. It doesn't take an engineer to know that the Car and Driver test does nothing to replicate a track environment. As I'm an avid reader of C&D the first thing I realized when I read this test, was how unlike the track this test is. It's great for someone making 25 emergency stops in 20 second intervals. Who knows when someone would have to do this but this sidesteps many ways a manufacture might try to improve a cars braking performance. For instance this does nothing to show how well a manufacture has directed airflow to the braking system. On a track you never brake to zero, let alone 25 times. You brake from many different speeds, for many different lengths of times. If you were to take the average speed of each vehicle in this test(including stopped time) this average would be MUCH lower then the average speed on a race course. More speed equals more airflow. This is just one obvious aspect of this test that doesn't replicate what a car might see on the track. Since they used a Nismo package on the Z with more body cladding then a Pontiac Aztec, I wouldn't be surprised if airflow was a major issue on the car that the specialized Brembo package can't overcome. Since I own a Z without the Brembo package I can tell you that the brakes are terrible. I can barely get the ABS activate with aftermarket 19 inch wheels and rubber. I can assure you this brembo package out-brakes what I have on the touring model. A better test would be several different brake packages on the same car. In this test they are comparing the overall braking performance of a car, not of a particular system. Except for the 2 911's(one with the PCCB's). In this test they couldn't see a difference between the two because they couldn't get either of them to start fading, not because they both have the same performance. Put these cars in a 24 hour Le Mans, and then tell me if they perform the same. Ask any enthusiast that upgrades his brakes, and tell me if they don't feel a difference. Aside from measuring the increased pedal distance and increased pedal pressure to achieve the same braking results, this test does very little to measure feedback of the brake system which is probably the most important aspect of a braking system.

2. More pistons should mean a more uniform clamping area. I'm sure like gear ratios in a transmission, there becomes a point when more is useless or counterproductive, but even pad/rotor wear is a very important aspect of braking performance. It also has a direct correlation on braking feel. With more pistons pressing down on the rotor you should need less pressure exerted on the pad to get the same braking performance. With lighter carbon ceramic rotors there is less unsprung weight, which also means better performance in all aspects of racing (cornering, accelerating, decelerating, etc..), and also LESS HEAT for the same amount of stopping performance.

Well this is just my .02, its sad that this thread got mauled by a few idiots and some over-reactions. But it is a good question that should've led to a really good discussion.
You should have stopped there, because all you did was come on here and spill out more dribble that means pretty much nothing. So for not picking a better thread and coming with more factual information on your first post.

There are plenty of "engineers" on this site, but not enough. The last thing this thread needed was another opinion from someone who doesn't know, and doesn't even own either of the two cars in question.
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