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      08-02-2008, 11:02 AM   #45
Gearhead999s
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most car mag tests show the cars are quicker with trqaction control fully off - except I recall the COrvette seemed to have a system that was faster in track mode.
Only with an unskilled driver!The Corvette system still is way too intrusive and also increases your brake heat big time if you are agressive at all.
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      08-02-2008, 01:00 PM   #46
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Motorcycles have that,The 1098R has a 8 position traction control setting

http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/my200...el=SBK1098R-08

I dont understand why a stand alone TCS cannot be offered without stability control.That might actually be of some use on track unlike MDM.
Some track-oriented cars offer this type of system, like some of the new Lotus cars but more cars should come with something similar. I might add that it's not a substitute for a skilled right foot, but for most of the guys on sites like this I personally think it would be an aid that most would find useful.

One thing I would like to add is on a track no instructor should allow their student to keep the full DSC system on because you learn nothing of the car's dynamics and what happens when you do finally over step the mark. It's the only place that such a thing is safe to do.
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      08-03-2008, 02:50 PM   #47
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Some track-oriented cars offer this type of system, like some of the new Lotus cars but more cars should come with something similar. I might add that it's not a substitute for a skilled right foot, but for most of the guys on sites like this I personally think it would be an aid that most would find useful.

One thing I would like to add is on a track no instructor should allow their student to keep the full DSC system on because you learn nothing of the car's dynamics and what happens when you do finally over step the mark. It's the only place that such a thing is safe to do.
west coast CCA events its pretty standard to have students leave TC on in D and C groups until they learn the line and prove they know what they are doing. this was due to several e46 M3 drivers that put thier car into the wall due to lack of right foot control.
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      08-03-2008, 04:37 PM   #48
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MDM, isn't a great system, it may be better than before but what is required is something similar to the F430. In it's best setting the car can lap within 0.1~0.2s of the car with all settings turned off, such a system may had cost a lot to develop and that's why it's only currently available on very expensive Ferraris.
I don't think tweaking the current traction control system in the M3 to adjust the duration and magnitude of the intervention would be all that expensive to pull off. The reason there isn't a less intrusive mode is much more likely to be simply related to liability on a mass produced car.
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      08-03-2008, 05:00 PM   #49
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One thing I would like to add is on a track no instructor should allow their student to keep the full DSC system on because you learn nothing of the car's dynamics and what happens when you do finally over step the mark. It's the only place that such a thing is safe to do.
In my experience, the typical instructor at a PCA, BMWCCA or regional DE event won't tell you to leave it on or off almost as a rule. They leave it up to the driver, they may say "PSM is holding you up in this corner" or "it's up to you, if you think your ready for it, but keep it under control until you get the feel of not having it on". Some won't even discuss it.

I've never heard an instructor say "turn it off" as a direct instruction, I assumed they don't want a student to do something stupid, resulting in damage or injury, and then point to their instructor...can't blame them for that.

I agree that PSM will eventually hinder learning, but it's still quite easy to get out of control even with it on, at least on a Porsche.

As a practical matter, would one really want to be in a track-virgin green run group with a bunch of Z06s, Mustangs, Vipers and Turbo P-cars where the rule of the morning was TC off?
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      08-03-2008, 06:22 PM   #50
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In my experience, the typical instructor at a PCA, BMWCCA or regional DE event won't tell you to leave it on or off almost as a rule. They leave it up to the driver, they may say "PSM is holding you up in this corner" or "it's up to you, if you think your ready for it, but keep it under control until you get the feel of not having it on". Some won't even discuss it.

I've never heard an instructor say "turn it off" as a direct instruction, I assumed they don't want a student to do something stupid, resulting in damage or injury, and then point to their instructor...can't blame them for that.

I agree that PSM will eventually hinder learning, but it's still quite easy to get out of control even with it on, at least on a Porsche.

As a practical matter, would one really want to be in a track-virgin green run group with a bunch of Z06s, Mustangs, Vipers and Turbo P-cars where the rule of the morning was TC off?
What amazes me is that with most track training is that part of the initial training is not on the skid pad.I beleive that with the Porsche club up here that you must do a skid pad school before you are even allowed on track in the base group if you have any experiance.Driving with the electronic nannies on does nothing for learning car control.
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      08-03-2008, 06:56 PM   #51
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What amazes me is that with most track training is that part of the initial training is not on the skid pad.I beleive that with the Porsche club up here that you must do a skid pad school before you are even allowed on track in the base group if you have any experiance.Driving with the electronic nannies on does nothing for learning car control.
I wish more tracks had skidpads wet or dry, they're just not available at most places here.

There's plenty to learn as a rank beginner before one should start approaching the limits of adhesion, like how to navigate a track and the line.

I agree, once a driver is lighting up TC/ABS all the time but still under control, it's only making the transition to no TC a steeper learning curve.

There's nothing more fun than a damp track with TC and ABS off to get the brain in order.

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      08-03-2008, 09:27 PM   #52
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The 2 training tracks that we have in this area both have skidpads and there is also another one not related to any race track that is available.This should be mandatory for any abinitial track schooling or for normal street driving IMO.
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      08-03-2008, 10:27 PM   #53
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golden gate chapter requires a car control before you track. LA chapter now offers it as part of the Cal speedway event. the best way to learn at the limit with TC fully off is the autocross IMO.
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      08-04-2008, 02:01 AM   #54
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The one area that early on can be useful for beginners is to show smoothness through corners and control of throttle exiting out of corners. If the DSC is kicking in trim you aggression and once you have learned how to be both smooth with throttle and flowing through the corner then may be the point when DSC should be removed.

Sorry on reflection I reckon my early comments were a little misjudged. I suppose I was thinking on most of the guys that going to this events are regulars. It's also possibly useful to help learn a new course.
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