EAE Update-Carbon Fiber Plenum

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Abdul

I just looked at the post from IG. It clearly says 12-13 WHP gains with the plenum. That sounds about right.

The BPM tune itself is advertised to gain 15-25 HP. So adding a the tune and Plenum and getting 30-35 HP over a stock car is not far fetched at all.

I can see where the confusion came from. The post should’ve just showed the gains with the plenum and that’s it. Which was consistently between 10-15 HP over stock. I was there for multiple runs.

Nonetheless, as you can see from the YouTube video I just posted, Peter didn’t say anything about gains. The design has changed a bit and so until we don’t do another Dyno run with the current design, we won’t mention anything about HP gains. We haven’t even posted anything about gains in the product description. I’m hundred percent sure there will be but we will know exactly to what extent once we get cars on the Dyno. Until then, we believe that this is the best Carbon Fiber Plenum on the market. The only one that is Made in USA. We’re offering a solid top version and lexan glass version.

Please explain why this is the best one on the market? A claim for something that isn’t on the market and hasn’t been tested on a dyno. You don’t even know what it sounds like yet. Please don’t say the lexan feature is one of the reasons why it’s the best. IMO, this is something that doesn’t belong on the S65. The EAE version was supposedly the best on the market yet they started to fail soon after being installed. The lexan cover is prone to failure due to the small bond area and the deformation of the plenum due to relative motion of the plenum and airbox.

[Abdul]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Please explain why this is the best one on the market? A claim for something that isn’t on the market and hasn’t been tested on a dyno. You don’t even know what it sounds like yet. Please don’t say the lexan feature is one of the reasons why it’s the best. IMO, this is something that doesn’t belong on the S65. The EAE version was supposedly the best on the market yet they started to fail soon after being installed. The lexan cover is prone to failure due to the small bond area and the deformation of the plenum due to relative motion of the plenum and airbox.

1) We do know what it sounds like since we have had V1 of this plenum on many car for over 6 months now. V2 has been on a car for over a month. If you watch the YouTube video I linked earlier, the plenum is on the car.

2) It’s the best plenum on the market in my opinion based on a few factors. Biggest one is that it’s One Piece Plenum. No boding points on the plenum which means less weak points. No other plenum on the market is a true One Piece Plenum. Secondly, it’s being manufactured by Partee Racing. Every single component is being manufactured in house. So they have full control over every aspect of production. This is only plenum Made in USA.

Finally, it’s my opinion. I’ve seen other plenums very closely and I can see a huge difference in the quality and design between them and this one. Everyone has the right to have their own opinion.

2) You’re right. Not everyone thinks the Lexan Feature is suitable for the S65. Heck, even Peter doesn’t want that on his car. But, the reality is that many people do love the Lexan version. To cover both interests, we’re offering a Solid top version and a Lexan Glass version.

3) Optical quality Lexan such as ours is regularly used in Motorsport applications, from pro to club racing, without issue. The methyl methacrylate glue that is used on this plenum won’t even start to degrade until 200c/392fl. The type of carbon, the Lexan and the methyl methacrylate glue each were hand-picked based on their CTE and other characteristics to withstand Motorsport usage. That makes them overkill for the typical consumer/street application, but that’s the way we do things.

[M3SQRD]

1 - again, I don’t watch linked YouTube videos. So a V1 and a V2 released after six months.

2 - 1 piece vs 2 piece doesn’t make the 1 piece inherently better and/or stronger. If properly designed the 2 piece design can be as strong, or stronger, than a 1 piece design. Same thing applies to stiffness. Only failed 2 piece version I’m aware of is EAE. No difference in form and function of 1 or 2 piece. Lol large difference in design and quality is EAE vs all other designs. BTW, your lexan version is a 2 piece design

3 - EAE touted the lexan design as novel and superior to other designs. A see-thru plenum is something you’d expect to see on Japanese, not German, cars. Two optional designs with very different resonances/sounds.

4 - which version of lexan are you using? Same for the methyl methacrylate adhesive? lol - Withstand Motorsport use. You make the plenum sound like it’s a piece of primary structure and subjected to the same loads and deflections suspension components are subjected to in motorsport use. The plenum is not even a piece of tertiary structure. It’s a part made of two plies of CF material. Methyl methacrylate is a thermoplastic, not a thermoset, adhesive which would start to flow again if it’s subjected to sustained high temperatures so the design should not be subjected to temperatures anywhere near 200 C. Material selection is quite simply to select for a design like this. Hell, you could build this plenum out of expired composite materials and adhesives, and, guess what, it would still survive “motorsport use” If it can’t then it’s the design, not materials, that’s the problem. Again, no difference in form or function.

This was more BS marketing material and nothing that quantitatively proves “we believe that this is the best Carbon Fiber Plenum on the market”.

[Abdul]

1. Not going to go back and forth with you. If you don’t watch the videos, why would I answer your questions. Most of your questions are answered there in the video by the manufacturers themselves.

2. One piece is stronger and a much better design. You don’t have to agree. The engineers and experts agree on this matter. Even if they don’t break, the seams look ugly! Again, you’re not watching the video or looking close enough. The Lexan top is also a one piece plenum.

3. We did a poll recently and 70% of m3 owners wanted a Lexan. I guess you’re amount the 30% that doesn’t want a Lexan top. No problem. I’m not forcing anyone to like something they don’t like.

4. The answer I gave about the Lexan is straight from the lion’s mouth. Peter Partee himself. I hope he joins this forum and can speak for himself. This plenum is redesigned and manufactured by his company. He’s a perfectionist. If you’ve never heard of his name, google it and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

I don’t have to do any BS marketing. The product speaks for itself. If you don’t like it, it’s all good. Everyone has their own taste. Have a good night.

Thanks a lot!

[ygoz]

Originally Posted by Abdul

3. We did a poll recently and 70% of m3 owners wanted a Lexan. I guess you’re amount the 30% that doesn’t want a Lexan top. No problem. I’m not forcing anyone to like something they don’t like.

You sure about that mate? I voted in your poll at the time and took a screen shot of the results as even I was surprised

[Abdul]

Originally Posted by ygoz

You sure about that mate? I voted in your poll at the time and took a screen shot of the results as even I was surprised

That was just the IG vote. We sent an email vote to everyone as well. The IG post only had 10-12 votes. Something like that. It wasn’t enough info to decide which direction to start our manufacturing process. But things change dialy and at the moment, we are making one lexan plenum for every solid top plenum.

[tdott]

Failure after failures, let us know when something changes.

Until then it's all fluff.

[Abdul]

Originally Posted by tdott

Failure after failures, let us know when something changes.

Until then it's all fluff.

I don’t know what you mean. But okay. We failed at sourcing a competent Carbon Fiber manufacturer the first time around. I admitted and I was transparent about it. I also made the change to the arguably one of the best Carbon Fiber manufacturers in the country.

Instead of this community being elated that Partee Racing had finely entered the S65 arena, we’re still dwelling over other issues.

I’m super thankful and appreciative that every other EAE product is being used by hundreds of BMW owners and the catalog is only increasing. We cannot keep stock of the PS reservoirs and E39 M5 coolant tanks. I can’t wait till this plenum is back on the market and BMW M3 owners are enjoying it all over the world. We’re on to working on the e39 M5 plenum now. Something nobody else offers.

[reidetailing]

Originally Posted by Abdul

I don’t know what you mean. But okay. We failed at sourcing a competent Carbon Fiber manufacturer the first time around. I admitted and I was transparent about it. I also made the change to the arguably one of the best Carbon Fiber manufacturers in the country.

Instead of this community being elated that Partee Racing had finely entered the S65 arena, we’re still dwelling over other issues.

I’m super thankful and appreciative that every other EAE product is being used by hundreds of BMW owners and the catalog is only increasing. We cannot keep stock of the PS reservoirs and E39 M5 coolant tanks. I can’t wait till this plenum is back on the market and BMW M3 owners are enjoying it all over the world. We’re on to working on the e39 M5 plenum now. Something nobody else offers.

Abdul,

Do you know if Nuke Performance Fuel Rails will be compatible with your Billet Valve covers? I don't see why not but just wanted to double check.


This plenum sounds incredible btw!

~Alex

[Redd]

Can someone please edumacate me how a plenum made out carbon fiber, aluminum and lexan can be considered 'one piece'? I'm not a university professor or nothing.

[kolosy]

Yeah there’s a lot of marketing-opinion-as-fact nonsense going on here. Combined with clear prior issues, spotty (I’m being generous here) communication across the board and general defensiveness in the face of reasonable questions, you get a not so great picture.

[e92dud]

I personally like the plenum without the ribs much better, main thing I don’t like about the eventuri. The ribs look like something nerf or tyco would make in the 90s.

[MaximusB]

Originally Posted by Redd

Can someone please edumacate me how a plenum made out carbon fiber, aluminum and lexan can be considered 'one piece'? I'm not a university professor or nothing.

They’re bonded together with a hot glue gun, hence they’re one piece now. Obviously.

[Chrisyphus]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Bingo. As a business owner, I wanted nothing to do with part time business owners.

I’m a global manufacturing and procurement expert; I’d be happy to help vet the entire company, it’s manufacturing, and procurement.

Sounds like a basement company; sourcing finished goods from third parties without the needed capital to do this the right way. You do not need to own the factory to be a manufacturer, but you do need to know the answer to any questions of the factory / manufacturer before you ask them. If you don’t, you are a reseller susceptible to sourcing a product not capable of meeting the claims of the marketing.

Cheers,
e46e92

560 Memorial drive, Danville, Virginia. 24541
(434) 478-1169
I am not always at my desk as I have parts to make, so feel free to email me if I do not answer: Chris@parteeracing.com

Lets schedule a time. We love to show off our shop.

[Chrisyphus]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

4 - which version of lexan are you using? Same for the methyl methacrylate adhesive? lol - Withstand Motorsport use. You make the plenum sound like it’s a piece of primary structure and subjected to the same loads and deflections suspension components are subjected to in motorsport use. The plenum is not even a piece of tertiary structure. It’s a part made of two plies of CF material. Methyl methacrylate is a thermoplastic, not a thermoset, adhesive which would start to flow again if it’s subjected to sustained high temperatures so the design should not be subjected to temperatures anywhere near 200 C. Material selection is quite simply to select for a design like this. Hell, you could build this plenum out of expired composite materials and adhesives, and, guess what, it would still survive “motorsport use” If it can’t then it’s the design, not materials, that’s the problem. Again, no difference in form or function.

This was more BS marketing material and nothing that quantitatively proves “we believe that this is the best Carbon Fiber Plenum on the market”.

You're spot on that the design is the critical factor in determining whether or not the component will be a long-lasting, high-quality product.

This is, critically, why I spent a LOT of time adjusting the design in Solidworks to be better tailored to a one-piece molding (via a three-piece split mold) process. It is also why we decided to remove the ribs in the plenum- we wanted a greater volume of air in the plenum and more open space above the velocity stacks. The fact that it looks so much better (subjective, to be fair) was a nice benefit.


Regarding your specific concern about the Lexan window, I changed the design here too. In the original version, the fixturing solution was changed and the manufacturer cut corners. The very original design had the Lexan on top of the plenum, outside of the carbon itself. they were unable (or unwilling) to spend the extra time to create a nice black border around the Lexan to hide the adhesive bonding the carbon to the Lexan and as a result, it looked unfinished. this was the time when Abdul had first started consulting with me, I suggested mounting the Lexan to the inside of the plenum as this would give a nice, clean look where the carbon could have a cleanly filleted edge leading up to the Lexan and the bonding could be done on the inside.

I knew that the manufacturer was bonding a top and bottom half together and assumed that they were doing this properly and would take the necessary measures to ensure a good bonding surface and create features in the Lexan that would aid in this before they bonded the top and bottom together.

I was wrong. The manufacturer, as far as I can tell, simply cut away the lip that the Lexan was supposed to sit on top of and bonded undersized and improperly shaped existing Lexan windows to the inside of the plenum. The design at this point was flawed to begin with, and as you stated, it doesn't matter how good the materials are at that point.

So, how have we remedied this?

We took a long and hard look at all the issues in the previous iteration and searched for the root causes, be they poor design, poor craftsmanship, or improper material choices.

I determined that the primary cause for the windows delaminating was by design (or, more accurately, lack of redesign) paired with a quick set epoxy bonding solution- likely because the original manufacturer had to hold the window in place while it cured.

We then debated on the best way to correct these mistakes. We decided that the best thing to do was to go back to a window-on-top design with a black border to create an OEM-like finished product. Then we decided to use a Black MMA to adhere the lexan to the carbon- this MMA was chosen because it has an excellent chemical bond to the Polycarbonate and is ideal for bonding dissimilar materials to the relatively inert (in terms of reactivity and CTE) Epoxy-based prepreg carbon fiber because it is extremely strong and when applied with an appropriate thickness allows for the materials to move, slightly, separately of each other without causing the bond to fail.

We chose to go this route for a few reasons-
One, this is the more foolproof method of bonding the two components together.
Two, we were concerned about former customers (who have been fully refunded) not trusting another underside-mounted window.
Three, we decided to construct our carbon component in a single piece straight out of the mold to increase strength while decreasing component complexity and weight. This would make it very difficult to ensure proper and consistent bonding from the inside.


This latest version, by design and material choice, will not fail.

[omgzirra_exe]

Personally, I still find the whole idea of the plenum window stupid and "ricey," if I dare say... although personal preference, like most. Unique? Sure. Not really? Will I laugh at you at the next CnC if your hood is up? Absolutely.

And this is coming from a guy who ran a full Voltex kit on his Evo 9 and a couple of mismatched brands of aero on his S2000 (C-West rear bumper, INGS front bumper, JS sideskirts, Voltex flares, Voltex Type 2 rear wing), and my current M3. I literally define "rice" to most car guys.

Although if the non-window version shows up better, it could be something to consider.

And I am considering, but I'd like to see a few on the market first, as I don't want to be the R&D guy... when I already do that for work, and I don't want to work after work.

[Chrisyphus]

Originally Posted by Redd

Can someone please edumacate me how a plenum made out carbon fiber, aluminum and lexan can be considered 'one piece'? I'm not a university professor or nothing.

That is a fair point lol.

"One piece" refers to the carbon component of the assembly. All others, to my knowledge, are made with a top and bottom half bonded together after the parts have been cured in an autoclave or otherwise.

This creates an inherent weak point where any stresses will focus and the only structural integrity comes from the bond. To be fair, a properly designed and executed bonding surface can be as strong or stronger than not having a seam at all, but it is added complexity and an additional potential failure mode.

We decided to go the extra mile in producing ours as a single component straight out of the mold with multiple plies of carbon overlapping each other in a staggered manner to disperse any stress concentrations and increase overall strength as much as possible.

To be fair, this is just an intake plenum and should never have any major loads put into it, but when I design something, whether it be a whole part or simply the laminate stack, I want it to be as solid as is reasonably possible.

So yeah, there are 70 individual components to this plenum if you include all the fasteners. The whole assembly is just that. An assembly.

We simply felt that this point was quite obvious as no one would assume we were trying to say that all the Aluminum, Steel, Lexan, and carbon fiber components were all one homogenous piece... would they?

Originally Posted by MaximusB

They’re bonded together with a hot glue gun, hence they’re one piece now. Obviously.

If only it were so easy.

[Chrisyphus]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

Personally, I still find the whole idea of the plenum window stupid and "ricey," if I dare say... although personal preference, like most. Unique? Sure. Not really? Will I laugh at you at the next CnC if your hood is up? Absolutely.

And this is coming from a guy who ran a full Voltex kit on his Evo 9 and a couple of mismatched brands of aero on his S2000 (C-West rear bumper, INGS front bumper, JS sideskirts, Voltex flares, Voltex Type 2 rear wing), and my current M3. I literally define "rice" to most car guys.

Although if the non-window version shows up better, it could be something to consider.

And I am considering, but I'd like to see a few on the market first, as I don't want to be the R&D guy... when I already do that for work, and I don't want to work after work.

Hey to each their own. Some people love the window, others hate it. We just want to provide high-quality parts to those who do and give options to those who don't.

No need for your support in R&D, we have cars of our own for that purpose.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Chrisyphus

This latest version, by design and material choice, will not fail.

Assuming it's produced properly this time...., but also how many years of testing was done with this part? Varying climate testing? etc etc.

You'd think all of that would be done before declaring:
“we believe that this is the best Carbon Fiber Plenum on the market”.

Until there are some results, customer reviews, etc, etc, people have a right to remain skeptical given the companies poor history.

[Chrisyphus]

Originally Posted by tdott

Assuming it's produced properly this time...., but also how many years of testing was done with this part? Varying climate testing? etc etc.

You'd think all of that would be done before declaring:
“we believe that this is the best Carbon Fiber Plenum on the market”.

Until there are some results, customer reviews, etc, etc, people have a right to remain skeptical given the companies poor history.

No assumptions are being made. I am the one making these parts. My design, my material choices, my hands doing the work. No part of what we are doing is experimental. Every single choice was advised by well understood processes and guidelines. There's nothing to spend years testing.. none of your favorite manufacturers spend "years" testing any of their products before launch because even suggesting that is laughable.

Every individual product used in the construction, on the other hand, has decades of experience behind them in every condition and situation imaginable. This data advises material selection.. this is basic engineering.

You and several others, however, are speculating and accusing Abdul of being shady or somehow taking advantage of people, even though he put his money where his mouth is and refunded anyone and everyone who asked for it AND is offering those same customers a massive discount. I just don't see where all this "poor history" talk is coming from Abdul was taken advantage of by another manufacturer who was unable to consistently deliver a quality product. Then, after losing his ass on the deal, he paid out of his own pocket to make affected customers whole.

This sort of discussion is precisely why I abandoned forums years ago. It is Sisyphusian.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Chrisyphus

I just don't see where all this "poor history" talk is coming from

You talk like this only happened one time, whereas there has been several poorly launched products.

Anyways less talk, more action, lets see something go well with happy customers for once.

[M3SQRD]

It doesn’t take much effort to select materials for a part that has to support its own weight in a 1.25-1.5 g loading environment + a secondary enforced deformation loading.

One vs two piece CF plenum designs If you can’t design a bonded joint capable of developing the full strength of 1 or 2 plies of a CF fabric then you should not be designing a 1 piece CF plenum. I’ve designed and tested CF-to-Inconel adhesively bonded structural assemblies that had to survive 11 Kelvin (-439.8 degF) and operate at 19 Kelvin, and required bonding multiple complex CF structures together. A 1 piece monocoque design by itself doesn’t make it inherently better than a 2 piece design.