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      07-24-2008, 07:54 PM   #23
sayemthree
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Originally Posted by stevespools View Post
Has anyone done both and could describe the difference? I signed up for M School Nov 6-8 and have been a club member for a year but haven`t attended anything yet. I don`t want to abuse my car on a track while it`s still so new and under warranty. I`ve never attended any driver school or driven on a track.

wow - over $3000!?! If I were you I would recommend a BWM CCA car control, then autocross, then track school. those three might cost you 750 for all three. that leaves money for new tires and BMW will pay for the brake pads. AS was said BMW uses many of the same instructors that instruct for CCA.

Its not that hard on the car - the M3 was built for it. Its mostly wear on the tires and brake pads- AND you might as well do it WHILE the car is covered under warranty!
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      07-24-2008, 08:03 PM   #24
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Its not that hard on the car - the M3 was built for it. Its mostly wear on the tires and brake pads- AND you might as well do it WHILE the car is covered under warranty!
Its not hard on the car if you drive slow.

However, if you do push the car things will wear out and/or break pretty quickly. Also there is no way I would trust the free BMW brake pads at a track. They will overheat and fade.
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      07-24-2008, 08:24 PM   #25
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sounds cryptic; I think you`re saying it can`t be practiced on the street. Are you advising me to do the CCA driver schools before attempting M School?

No, I was making fun you heel-n-toeing in the middle of a turn....

Just practice on every gear shift on the street. But recognize heel-n-toe on the track is different than heel-n-toe on the street because on the track your foot is much deeper into the brake pedal and your need to blip much harder to match revs.

There is at least one exercise on heel-n-toe at the 2 day M school.....like I said, it is easy to spot who has been on the track and not on this exercise.

The autocross you shift into the right gear and the course is done in one gear.

The rest of the time will be SMG on the M5 / M6.

You will have fun.
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      07-25-2008, 01:58 AM   #26
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Its not hard on the car if you drive slow.

However, if you do push the car things will wear out and/or break pretty quickly. Also there is no way I would trust the free BMW brake pads at a track. They will overheat and fade.

I tracked a 2001 M3 for over 7 years NOTHING ever broke at the track. NOTHING ! EVER!
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      07-25-2008, 05:03 AM   #27
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I just finished the M school recently in Greenville. Its the best 48 hours you will
spend learning about the performance limits of your car. I highly recommend it.
The instruction is TOP NOTCH and feedback is very very useful. I am also going
to be attending the Advanced M school in August. VERY HIGHLY recommended!
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      07-25-2008, 05:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by alvinjamur View Post
I just finished the M school recently in Greenville. Its the best 48 hours you will
spend learning about the performance limits of your car. I highly recommend it.
The instruction is TOP NOTCH and feedback is very very useful. I am also going
to be attending the Advanced M school in August. VERY HIGHLY recommended!
do you have track experience? I`m getting the feeling from the responses here that I should postpone M School until I do a few BMWCCA events.
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      07-25-2008, 09:14 AM   #29
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If you've never heel and toe'd before, it might be best to even start with the car off and parked, just to initially get a feel of where your foot will go on the pedals since it will likely feel unnatural initially. Since you're not moving, you can look to see where your foot is best positioned. Then start the engine, and practice the feel of blipping the throttle while still parked. You don't want to be moving with the distraction of trying to figure out where your foot should go/move.
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      07-25-2008, 09:40 AM   #30
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I'm probably going to get FLAMED for this...but nevertheless, I will go ahead and
say what I think :

Manual Transmissions will be a thing of the past - as technology progresses, and
we have sophisticated gearboxes the typical foot clutch manuals will go away
from high performance cars. Just look at the pricing on some Ferraris and even
the BMW M3 with manual tranny compared to DCT tranny. The times for shifting
will make people that cling onto manual tranny think again.

That aside, you should either goto BMWCCA and drive your own car OR you can
goto the BMW M School/Advanced M School and drive their cars. Either way you
will learn a lot. You don't require track experience for either. I did not have
any track experience before going to the M schools.

Good luck and drive in good health.

- aLV

PS: I would highly recommend you buy the Skip Barber Racing book. It is fantastic!
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      07-25-2008, 10:30 AM   #31
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If you can afford it, go to M School. Much better professional instruction and you get to beat on BMW's cars instead of your own.
+1...........just came abck from the two day performance school and I was blown away by how well run it was and how professional and competant the instructors were. Will be going back for M-School next summer
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      07-26-2008, 06:31 AM   #32
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thanks for all the responses I signed up for BMWCCA Pocono North Course Driver School on Oct 11-12 to get some training before M School in Nov. Anyone else on here going to Pocono Raceway then?
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      07-26-2008, 07:45 AM   #33
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Definitely start with at least one CCA car control clinic. Then you can sign up for lapping days. I have attended 2 car control clinics and 2 sessions at the track. The learning curve is steep so I would get some skills down prior to spending the $3000.

The car control clinics have a class associated with them. They will inform you that to do heel and toe you need to practice in every day driving for a long time before it would make sense to try it on the track. You certainly don't won't to be concentrating on that with the myriad of other things on your mind.

As far as beating up your car goes, I guess I could argue that either way. But why own these cars if we can't use them occasionally. My track day last Weds use about 1/5 of my tires, so that could get expensive. But it is a hell of a lot of fun and you don't have to be the best to enjoy it.
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      07-26-2008, 09:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Definitely start with at least one CCA car control clinic. Then you can sign up for lapping days. I have attended 2 car control clinics and 2 sessions at the track. The learning curve is steep so I would get some skills down prior to spending the $3000.

The car control clinics have a class associated with them. They will inform you that to do heel and toe you need to practice in every day driving for a long time before it would make sense to try it on the track. You certainly don't won't to be concentrating on that with the myriad of other things on your mind.

As far as beating up your car goes, I guess I could argue that either way. But why own these cars if we can't use them occasionally. My track day last Weds use about 1/5 of my tires, so that could get expensive. But it is a hell of a lot of fun and you don't have to be the best to enjoy it.
thanks for the advice - I`m thinking of postponing M School until next year so I can develop some skills first so I get the most out of it.
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      07-26-2008, 10:04 AM   #35
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thanks for the advice - I`m thinking of postponing M School until next year so I can develop some skills first so I get the most out of it.

Sorry Steve, your logic is escaping me. You may lack the confidence of going on the track because you have not been there before yet the first time you want to do it is with your own car with decent instruction from BMW CCA?

You will get excellent instruction at M School, lots of seat time, you will get everything from basic car control to advanced open lapping in BMW's own cars.

The only exercise that may scare seems to be the heel-n-toe, don't worry about it, most people suck.

You will be a much better driver after M school than out of a CCA event, by a long stretch.


BTW, one of my classmates crashed and wrecked a M5, after he cleared medical, he went out in the next session.
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      07-26-2008, 10:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Sorry Steve, your logic is escaping me. You may lack the confidence of going on the track because you have not been there before yet the first time you want to do it is with your own car with decent instruction from BMW CCA?

You will get excellent instruction at M School, lots of seat time, you will get everything from basic car control to advanced open lapping in BMW's own cars.

The only exercise that may scare seems to be the heel-n-toe, don't worry about it, most people suck.

You will be a much better driver after M school than out of a CCA event, by a long stretch.


BTW, one of my classmates crashed and wrecked a M5, after he cleared medical, he went out in the next session.
I agree with you, T Bone; that was actually my feeling originally, that I didn`t want to use my own car, at least at first. Most of the responses here seem to indicate that I can start out more slowly at a CCA event and gradually build up skills so I won`t be in over my head at M School. Since I`ve never done either it`s hard to decide which is better except to ask advice from those who have. I really appreciate every who has taken the time to give me advice on this. I guess I can`t go wrong either way, it will probably come down to whether I feel comfortable using my own car. I`m kicking myself for never doing any events over the last 3 years with my ZHP
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      07-26-2008, 02:00 PM   #37
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question -- do you have the choice of taking M school in a MT car or a DCT car?

I'd def be interested in doing it, but as a DCT owner thats never used a MT and has no intention of learning, I really don't see the purpose of the MT stuff.
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      07-26-2008, 04:05 PM   #38
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You will be a much better driver after M school than out of a CCA event, by a long stretch.
I would not disagree that one M school can teach you more than a single CCA event. But, if one spends the equivalent $3200 on multiple CCA events (probably a car control clinic plus 5-7 HPDE weekends plus gas/hotel/etc), I think that one will probably actually learn more via the multiple CCA schools. Over that period someone could probably develop from a complete novice to a mid/high intermediate driver in the CCA program. Just two days of M school I couldn't see someone getting much past the novice level, maybe at best to low intermediate. It's all about seat time and experience to develop track skills.
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      07-26-2008, 05:29 PM   #39
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I would not disagree that one M school can teach you more than a single CCA event. But, if one spends the equivalent $3200 on multiple CCA events (probably a car control clinic plus 5-7 HPDE weekends plus gas/hotel/etc), I think that one will probably actually learn more via the multiple CCA schools. Over that period someone could probably develop from a complete novice to a mid/high intermediate driver in the CCA program. Just two days of M school I couldn't see someone getting much past the novice level, maybe at best to low intermediate. It's all about seat time and experience to develop track skills.

Are you making a quality vs. quantity statement?

If our friend Steve is a noob at the track, I would almost argue exclusively for the M School. These are the informative days. There is also theory at M School.

No one doubts the value of the CCA events but M School is a premier driving school run by pros. Plus, it is one helluva experience too.
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      07-26-2008, 05:36 PM   #40
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No one doubts the value of the CCA events but M School is a premier driving school run by pros. Plus, it is one helluva experience too.
I do. The value of CCA events is entirely dependant on getting a good instructor. That doesn't always happen. If you draw a bad one not only will you not have a good time, what you learn may be outright wrong
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      07-26-2008, 06:12 PM   #41
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this has been very informative for me - I can see the value in both, and I want to do both. I will do the CCA Pocono in Oct and M School in Nov and report back my experiences. Thanks again
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      07-26-2008, 06:14 PM   #42
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this has been very informative for me - I can see the value in both, and I want to do both. I will do the CCA Pocono in Oct and M School in Nov and report back my experiences. Thanks again
is there a site with more info on the pocono event?
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      07-26-2008, 06:28 PM   #43
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is there a site with more info on the pocono event?
here`s a link:

http://www.delvalbmwcca.org/

click on events. There`s also one in Jersey in August but it`s full already.
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      07-27-2008, 09:31 AM   #44
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Are you making a quality vs. quantity statement?
Sort of - more like time vs. money. On time, over just 2 days M school certainly comes out ahead, but on dollars, less expensive but many more CCA events will come out ahead, much ahead in my opinion.

Not questioning whatsoever about the quality of M school and experience. It's just that M school is expensive. I'm not saying don't go to M school, I'm just saying that as an educational value there are alternatives to consider.

For Steve, I think you're on the right track, doing some other events first to get the basics. As others have said, the learning curve is steep, so if you have some basics first I think you'll maximize the value of M school as opposed to starting directly with M school. If you don't even know how to "walk" yet, better to hold off on paying for the expensive "running coach" until after you learn to walk first.
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