BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Lux Angel Eyes
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-24-2008, 10:20 AM   #45
evosport
Enlisted Member
 
evosport's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 CSL Cab
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 34
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
Thanks for the replies,

Quick question for you, are you guys planning on coming out with a Short Shifter Kit for the E9x M3?
We use AutoSolutions short shifter kits as a rule. I am hopeful we will see a kit very soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvagusta View Post
these guy's want your business and thay care about how thay are being judged on there product'ssThay don't have to do this on this board.. The reason why is thay really care on what we think....And i don't think that we would make them rich on buying pulley's.. I needed to say something because i own a business and i can understand on what there doing...When your heart is set on something that you like doing it really show's...Brad your good... I'll be buying... I bought your bumper markers and thay were perfect... thank's...
Thanks! It is great to see people that understand!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Thanks for the answers Brad.

I am not saying BMW engineers are maximizing performance at all costs. Actually, that's why I mentioned "trade-off". They are maximizing performance against competing criteria such as emissions, durability, everyday drivability, etc.

What I am taking away from your answer is that the car might run into some cooling and charging issues if it is operated at low rpms for an extended period of time.

One last question: have you taken an E9X M3 equiped with your product to the track? If you did, what oil temp did it reach after about 25 minutes of hard driving? I am still trying to understand why cooling would not be an issue even at higher vehicle/engine speeds if the car is pushed really hard. It's not as if the stock setup simply stays pinned at 210 degrees. Mine was running at around 255 on a tight track with a relatively short straight. So, why would under-driving the water pump not result in less cooling in those conditions? Are you saying that the water pump cativates at those engine speeds and does not function optimally in the stock setup to begin with so slowing it down doesn't result in less cooling at high revs?
Well this last weekend at Buttonwillow, 3 stock cars went into limp due to oil temps too high - and these are stock cars. I have not done any data logging further then that on track.

However, YES, BMW engineers the water pump to have an the most effective range at lower RPM. So on track, you very easily could have a cavitation issue. This is the case on every other modern BMW we have data-logged. We will be data-logging on the e92 shortly.

Cavitation has nothing to do with straights or turns, it has only to do with RPM.

Quote:
Are you saying that the water pump cativates at those engine speeds and does not function optimally in the stock setup to begin with so slowing it down doesn't result in less cooling at high revs?
Yes, exactly. Again, this has been the case on every other prior modern M car (e36, e46, e39, e60). We will be data-logging an e92 as soon as possible, but I would expect it to be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
I think I'll be adding this mod to my list sometime next year. Cheap horsepower, I'm all for it!
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchM3 View Post
good responses. I'll be placing an order soon
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd54 View Post
I accept the challenge Brad. I will fly down to Southern California to do the test. However the following conditions must be met by your company:

1. We use my car, which is in Socal right now. It is completely stock, a software flash may have been done but I can have the ecu flashed back to stock.
2. We use a shop of my choice, with a dyno I choose. This will be a neutral location for both of us.
3. You can supply the pulley kit, however none of your staff is allowed to install the kit or be anywhere near the dyno for the duration of the test.

The wager remains the same. If there is indeed a 21bhp gain I will issue an apology and pay for the trip, dyno costs, install etc... If the gain is less than 21bhp your company will pay for the installation and removal, dyno testing, my hotel and flights. Let me know so I can make flight arrangements and book some time off.
OK, but if you are serious, then email or PM me. Your conditions are not acceptable as is.

1. your car is fine.
2. as long as it is a dyno-jet 248c (same dyno to see same results) and is not a competitor (must remove bias) - we must agree on the shop
3. why would I allow something to be installed by someone that may or may not know what they are doing? How would us installing the kit lead to any artificial gain? This is just a silly point.
4. The results must be within a range of +/- some percentage. Every car is not exactly the same. That is why we show REAL results on a car, and in fact I will have dyno runs soon from two other nationally known BMW shops on the east coast (Turner and BimmerWorld - where you can also buy this kit from). Just like with software (you said your car may have software), did you get the exact gains they claim? Typically there is a 10-20% variance from car to car (sometimes more). This is well documented by everyone in the industry from BMW to the entry-level tuner.

Again, if you are serious, then I am 100% a go, I would not make a challenge that we were not up for. We just need to agree to conditions that do not set us up to fail. I am a bit smarter then that.

Thanks everyone (well almost everyone, j/k)!

Thanks
Brad
__________________
evosport is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:26 AM   #46
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
Well this last weekend at Buttonwillow, 3 stock cars went into limp due to oil temps too high - and these are stock cars. I have not done any data logging further then that on track.
Are you referring to 3 stock E9X M3s here? If so, interesting information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
However, YES, BMW engineers the water pump to have an the most effective range at lower RPM. So on track, you very easily could have a cavitation issue. This is the case on every other modern BMW we have data-logged. We will be data-logging on the e92 shortly.
Please let us know when you have the data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
Cavitation has nothing to do with straights or turns, it has only to do with RPM.
Yes, of course cavitation has nothing to do with track layout. I know that. But air flow, and consequently, cooling, does. What I mean is that I am concerned about what will happen to my car when pushed hard on a track that does not allow for much cooling (relatively speaking) and oil temperature run high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
Yes, exactly. Again, this has been the case on every other prior modern M car (e36, e46, e39, e60). We will be data-logging an e92 as soon as possible, but I would expect it to be the same.
Just to clarify, I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am skeptical with these kinds of things general, and would like to understand the issues and see the relevant data before buying into an aftermarket product. Looking forward to learning about what you guys find out/log.

Thanks.
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:30 AM   #47
evosport
Enlisted Member
 
evosport's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 CSL Cab
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 34
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Are you referring to 3 stock E9X M3s here? If so, interesting information. Thanks.
Yes. I think one was DSG and two were manual. I heard from the instructors in two and one was owned by a club racer (we were there racing)

Quote:
Please let us know when you have the data.
Of course! That is what we do. We spend a LOT of time collecting data. Again, anyone local can come by and see us!

Quote:
Yes, of course cavitation has nothing to do with track layout. I know that. But air flow, and consequently, cooling, does.
Yep, that is correct.

Thanks
Brad
__________________
evosport is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:38 AM   #48
nd54
Captain
 
Drives: RDSport RS 46
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 649
iTrader: (6)

I'll PM you later today to make arrangements, however I absolutely will not use any Dynojet model, this is the most important condition. A pulley install is supposed to be straightforward and takes less than an hour, there is no reason for your staff to install it. How about we agree on 15% variation, roughly 18-24bhp?
I think that the above conditions represent a fair real life test, not everyone will use a Dynojet 248c to test their car (I never would), and most people won't be able to use your tech for the install.

Let me know if this is ok, I'm looking forward to it. Any excuse to go to Socal...


Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
OK, but if you are serious, then email or PM me. Your conditions are not acceptable as is.

1. your car is fine.
2. as long as it is a dyno-jet 248c (same dyno to see same results) and is not a competitor (must remove bias) - we must agree on the shop
3. why would I allow something to be installed by someone that may or may not know what they are doing? How would us installing the kit lead to any artificial gain? This is just a silly point.
4. The results must be within a range of +/- some percentage. Every car is not exactly the same. That is why we show REAL results on a car, and in fact I will have dyno runs soon from two other nationally known BMW shops on the east coast (Turner and BimmerWorld - where you can also buy this kit from). Just like with software (you said your car may have software), did you get the exact gains they claim? Typically there is a 10-20% variance from car to car (sometimes more). This is well documented by everyone in the industry from BMW to the entry-level tuner.

Again, if you are serious, then I am 100% a go, I would not make a challenge that we were not up for. We just need to agree to conditions that do not set us up to fail. I am a bit smarter then that.

Thanks everyone (well almost everyone, j/k)!

Thanks
Brad
nd54 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:46 AM   #49
evosport
Enlisted Member
 
evosport's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 CSL Cab
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 34
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd54 View Post
I'll PM you later today to make arrangements, however I absolutely will not use any Dynojet model, this is the most important condition. A pulley install is supposed to be straightforward and takes less than an hour, there is no reason for your staff to install it. How about we agree on 15% variation, roughly 18-24bhp?
I think that the above conditions represent a fair real life test, not everyone will use a Dynojet 248c to test their car (I never would), and most people won't be able to use your tech for the install.

Let me know if this is ok, I'm looking forward to it. Any excuse to go to Socal...
If you are going to challenge me on the results, call them BS - you need to be able to use the SAME equipment.

You obviously know that every brand of dyno reads differently. Depending on the brand, the variation could be 50% less or 50% more gain.

A dynojet 248c is the most commonly used dyno nationwide to test cars for numbers. We use it for this reason. You CAN go to a dynojet 248c ANYWHERE in the US and get a number that is within 5% of any other dynojet. Two magazines have done this exact test in the last few years.

You called us out, I replied. If you want to take the challenge, then it will only be using the SAME equipment, that is the only way to guarantee parity and fairness.

If you change your mind, let me know.

FYI, the pulley install is about 4 hours (I was basing 2 hours off the M5 install - but this is more involved). It is done from above and below the car, not above like previous model M3's. You must remove the lower under panels, remove the airbox, remove the fan, remove one of the idler pulleys. Then when you are done, you have to replace all of those items. You MIGHT be able to do it quicker, but we choose not to RUSH on $70K+ cars - not worth scratching or damaging or not installing something correctly. We will provide complete instructions to do this.

thanks
brad
__________________

Last edited by evosport; 07-24-2008 at 11:23 AM.
evosport is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:47 AM   #50
SlammedR8
Brigadier General
 
SlammedR8's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Audi R8 V10 +2013 Audi S4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 4,936
iTrader: (2)

Send a message via MSN to SlammedR8
__________________
SlammedR8 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:48 AM   #51
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
 
KonigsTiger's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

Posts: 4,398
iTrader: (0)

I'm certain you can get a few hp out of a pulley but can't see how that would not affect A/C or anything AT ALL. Has to affect something. Now, the effect may be so minimal that one should not care, but I would let someone else do it and test it first.
__________________
==================================================
KonigsTiger is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:50 AM   #52
evosport
Enlisted Member
 
evosport's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 CSL Cab
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 34
iTrader: (0)

I hear ya, but please realize that the V8 M3 motor is essentially the same as the V10 M5 motor less 2cyl. Especially on the front. The accessories, etc - and we have been running pulleys on the v10 since the release of that motor. Just an FYI.

thanks
Brad
__________________
evosport is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 10:54 AM   #53
SlammedR8
Brigadier General
 
SlammedR8's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Audi R8 V10 +2013 Audi S4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 4,936
iTrader: (2)

Send a message via MSN to SlammedR8
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
I'm certain you can get a few hp out of a pulley but can't see how that would not affect A/C or anything AT ALL. Has to affect something. Now, the effect may be so minimal that one should not care, but I would let someone else do it and test it first.
Im running the Rogue Pulleys, and there is absolutley no drawback/negative.

Doesnt affect A/C or anything AT ALL
__________________
SlammedR8 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:01 AM   #54
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
I'm certain you can get a few hp out of a pulley but can't see how that would not affect A/C or anything AT ALL. Has to affect something. Now, the effect may be so minimal that one should not care, but I would let someone else do it and test it first.
He did say it would affect cooling and charging if you run the engine at low revs for extended periods of time, as in stuck in a traffic jam maybe? Cooling and charging are the real issues to look out for.

I wouldn't worry about the A/C. The A/C compressor will not be on all the time unless you are driving around at noon in the middle of the desert. Even if you do that, and the compressor needs to run all the time, it shouldn't damage the compressor or the A/C system. You'll just get a little less cold air in the cabin. And I guess the compressor might not be running at peak efficiency (I must assume it is designed to run at a specific rotational speed which would change with the pulley), which might mean slightly higher fuel consumption, but it would be a rather small difference I would guess. Just a guess though.
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:08 AM   #55
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,580
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
We use AutoSolutions short shifter kits as a rule. I am hopeful we will see a kit very soon.

Thanks! It is great to see people that understand!

Well this last weekend at Buttonwillow, 3 stock cars went into limp due to oil temps too high - and these are stock cars. I have not done any data logging further then that on track.

However, YES, BMW engineers the water pump to have an the most effective range at lower RPM. So on track, you very easily could have a cavitation issue. This is the case on every other modern BMW we have data-logged. We will be data-logging on the e92 shortly.

Cavitation has nothing to do with straights or turns, it has only to do with RPM.

Yes, exactly. Again, this has been the case on every other prior modern M car (e36, e46, e39, e60). We will be data-logging an e92 as soon as possible, but I would expect it to be the same.

Thanks!

Thanks!

OK, but if you are serious, then email or PM me. Your conditions are not acceptable as is.

1. your car is fine.
2. as long as it is a dyno-jet 248c (same dyno to see same results) and is not a competitor (must remove bias) - we must agree on the shop
3. why would I allow something to be installed by someone that may or may not know what they are doing? How would us installing the kit lead to any artificial gain? This is just a silly point.
4. The results must be within a range of +/- some percentage. Every car is not exactly the same. That is why we show REAL results on a car, and in fact I will have dyno runs soon from two other nationally known BMW shops on the east coast (Turner and BimmerWorld - where you can also buy this kit from). Just like with software (you said your car may have software), did you get the exact gains they claim? Typically there is a 10-20% variance from car to car (sometimes more). This is well documented by everyone in the industry from BMW to the entry-level tuner.

Again, if you are serious, then I am 100% a go, I would not make a challenge that we were not up for. We just need to agree to conditions that do not set us up to fail. I am a bit smarter then that.

Thanks everyone (well almost everyone, j/k)!

Thanks
Brad
Overheating M3's? First time I have heard of this.... expected you to say they were 335i's....

Jason
__________________
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic14547_7.gif
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:10 AM   #56
CatchM3
Major
 
CatchM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 F80 M3 Mineral Grey
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boca Raton

Posts: 1,007
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 E90 M3  [0.00]
__________________

YoutTube Car Videos: CLICK ME
CatchM3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:11 AM   #57
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Overheating M3's? First time I have heard of this.... expected you to say they were 335i's....

Jason
Well, he said they were being raced, so I am not surprised. An additional oil cooler should solve the problem. I think that's a pretty common mod with E36 M3s that are being tracked hard/raced.
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:14 AM   #58
evosport
Enlisted Member
 
evosport's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 CSL Cab
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 34
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Well, he said they were being raced, so I am not surprised. An additional oil cooler should solve the problem. I think that's a pretty common mod with E36 M3s that are being tracked hard/raced.
Tracked in the drivers school, but yes, driven hard.
__________________
evosport is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:15 AM   #59
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

First of all Brad and Simon are stand up guys and Evosport is good company.....

I just think there are some questions that people have on this specific product. In my experience with the pulleys on the M6:
  • I took issue with the pricing - a pulley on a BMW is 4-5X price of a domestic - but this is just personal and non-relevant opinion to performance
  • I just didn't see real world performance with my pulleys but I did see slightly higher oil temps
I had the pulleys on my M6 last year when I went to Mosport in my M6. I have gone again this year, with the stock pulleys. There is a long uphill straight at Mosport. There was no appreciable difference in speeds at the end of the straight. With the pulleys, the car did run hotter.

I have no doubt that the dynos show these results. And my buttt dyno may be miscalibrated. But can you corroberate with some trap speeds at the dragstrip with all things being equal except the pulleys?

ND54, props.....go visit!
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:17 AM   #60
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
Tracked in the drivers school, but yes, driven hard.
Do you know what oil temps they were running when they went into limp mode? There are 3 reports on the M3s on the forum, including mine, which reached 255 on hot summer days at the track that did not limp, so I am curious as to where the trigger point is. 275 maybe?
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:23 AM   #61
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I had the pulleys on my M6 last year when I went to Mosport in my M6. I have gone again this year, with the stock pulleys. There is a long uphill straight at Mosport. There was no appreciable difference in speeds at the end of the straight. With the pulleys, the car did run hotter.
How much hotter to be specific?
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:32 AM   #62
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
How much hotter to be specific?

Putting around town with the stock pulleys, the oil temp was a needlewidth cooler than the middle meatball

Putting around town with the Evosport pulleys, the oil temp was a needwidth warmer than the middle meatball

Around the track with stock pulleys, the temp was between the middle and other meatball.

Around the track with the Evosport pulleys, the temp was slightly higher and closer to the second meatball.


Sorry unscientific but noticable. No limps in the M6
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:37 AM   #63
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Putting around town with the stock pulleys, the oil temp was a needlewidth cooler than the middle meatball

Putting around town with the Evosport pulleys, the oil temp was a needwidth warmer than the middle meatball

Around the track with stock pulleys, the temp was between the middle and other meatball.

Around the track with the Evosport pulleys, the temp was slightly higher and closer to the second meatball.


Sorry unscientific but noticable. No limps in the M6
What, you don't have a digital oil temp gauge installed on your dash!!!

All this time, I thought you knew what you were doing!

Now, can you please tell me what the numbers above the three meatballs are on the M6? Same as the M3?
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 11:44 AM   #64
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
What, you don't have a digital oil temp gauge installed on your dash!!!

All this time, I thought you knew what you were doing!

Now, can you please tell me what the numbers above the three meatballs are on the M6? Same as the M3?

As you can see with civilized Metric societies, we have very clean instrument clusters. See the middle 3 meatballs for reference.

Middle meatball is 100 degrees C not sure if the scale is linear.
Attached Images
 
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 12:03 PM   #65
KonigsTiger
Racying Dynamics
 
KonigsTiger's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3 RS46 Club Sport, others
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dweller

Posts: 4,398
iTrader: (0)

I don't see anything different to my M3 other than the CF. Am I missing something?
__________________
==================================================
KonigsTiger is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-24-2008, 12:04 PM   #66
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
As you can see with civilized Metric societies, we have very clean instrument clusters.
Couldn't agree more on this one. We're totally stuck in the stone age here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
See the middle 3 meatballs for reference.

Middle meatball is 100 degrees C not sure if the scale is linear.
OK. The M3 has the same numbers above the meatballs (in awkard units of course). 120-210-300 F. So the temps you are running in your M6 are pretty much identical to mine in the conditions that you describe in stock form.

Name:  M3 dash.jpg
Views: 267
Size:  157.2 KB
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST