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      07-22-2008, 10:31 PM   #23
GregW / Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
I have been to Evosport. Very legit company. They know what they are doing.
+1. Brad and Evosport are very upstanding. I would be shocked to find cooking the numbers going on here. Brad races and understands our cars.
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      07-23-2008, 09:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
+1. Brad and Evosport are very upstanding. I would be shocked to find cooking the numbers going on here. Brad races and understands our cars.

If you guys go down this path, RPI will also be producing pulleys.

If you live in hot climates, you should consider the hotter temps your car is going to run.
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      07-23-2008, 09:47 AM   #25
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Why is everyone saying 21 hp increase?

I might be stupid, but 367hp-349hp=18hp ?
Right?
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      07-23-2008, 09:56 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
Why is everyone saying 21 hp increase?

I might be stupid, but 367hp-349hp=18hp ?
Right?
Agreed, but that's what they advertise on their website.
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      07-23-2008, 10:01 AM   #27
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Ive just bought them and i stay in Scotland so im sure i wont need to worry about hot temp's
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      07-23-2008, 01:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
Why is everyone saying 21 hp increase?

I might be stupid, but 367hp-349hp=18hp ?
Right?
Most likely the peak horsepower gain is not being created at engine peak horsepower. The 21 hp is probably occuring lower in the rpm range.
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      07-23-2008, 04:44 PM   #29
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Doesn't anybody think there's a big difference between the Evo and Rouge Pulleys, if there almost identical, maybe a different dyno??
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      07-23-2008, 05:07 PM   #30
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Hi all, I am Brad Otoupalik. I am one of the founders of evosport. For those that do not know, we are a BMW, Mercedes and Ferrari tuner. You can see our work in about any eruo magazine, local racetrack or on the street. We are a engineering driven performance company, not a copy cat or bling bling house.

I thought it would be helpful if I answered some of these posts directly. A few board members pointed this thread out to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
http://www.evosport.com/product/prod...VO.PER.B92.P01

What do you think?

I think I would choose Evosport over Rogue Engineering any day.
Thanks! We were the first to do accessory pulleys on BMW's and were the first to successfully do crank pulleys on the V-motors. We have been making pulleys for BMW's since 2002!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd54 View Post
21hp for pulleys??? That's just about the most outrageous claim I've ever heard.
OK? You must not know who we are or anything about our company. We don't make claims, we post dyno numbers. Marketing claims are for those that cannot back it up. Want to put your money up on a wager?

For anyone in SoCal, you are welcome to come by and see our Dev car anytime.

In fact, Powerchip have been over here on the dyno the last 2 nights after some good road testing and we are up over 370 wheel HP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealSanaii View Post
I got the email from them as well. +21HP for only $395 ???

I'm no expert on pulleys so someone should enlighten us.
Pulleys are like riding a multi-speed bike. Recall that when you shift into the higher gears, you have to pedal less to keep the same speed. The principal is the same. By under driving the accessories on the motor you are able to re-gain some of the lost efficiency. On the modern motors, you cannot replace the alternator, PS or H2O pulleys effectively, so we go to the crank pulley (but do not touch the dampener). The accessories are under-driven less then 10% and are well within the engineering tolerances.

In fact, if you drive at high RPM's more regularly, the under driven accessories will perform better as you will not cavitate the water pump especially.

Our pulleys and this principal have been used on Championship winning World Challenge and GrandAm cars as well as hundreds of racers worldwide. More then that, we have no sold over 1000 sets to street customers for ///M cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchM3 View Post
That is in response to the failed I6 pulleys that are referred to below. Our pulleys have no correlation to that article as they do not interfere with the damper in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
thanks for the article! very informative.

one thing though, I know that some of the aftermarket pulleys are dampened. I wonder if this one and the M5/M6 pulleys are too. I know that evosport made dampened pulleys for the C32 and E55 AMG.
Yes, the MBZ pulleys have our own unique damper, but we do not need to do this with the BMW set-up. On the BMW, the damper remains intact, and the pulley bolts to that piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
While I agree with what Dinan wrote most pully systems dont offer underdriven crank pulleys anymore. The last pully set that I saw like this was for the E36 and that was over 6 years ago and around the time this particular article was written. I remember it from five or six years ago when pulley modifications were really really popular. Anyhoo, as long as you dont underdrive the crank then this pulley will work fine. However, if your service department finds out and you develop an engine issue, dont expect them to fix it under warrenty.

With all this being said, there are plenty of BMW's running around that have had upgraded pulleys for 100's of thousands of miles. Even M3 with under driven cranks....

Jason
You are correct. I was in involved in a World Challenge team that broke 2 crank shafts in one weekend with that brand pulley. It was not engineered correctly. To further that the harmonics of the long inline 6 crank are difficult to control.

However, our pulleys do not suffer from these same issues.

Also, FYI, we have had numerous S54 engines replaced under warranty WITH pulleys one them (mine included). As many know, the S54 was a problematic motor and many dealers replaced them due to rod and rod bearing issues.

We also work with numerous BMW dealerships and offer the same warranties and support you would find with Dinan or any other high end manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchM3 View Post


To buy or not to buy, that is the question.

Evosport Pulley Features:
- Bolt-on design
- Billet aluminum
- Black anodized
- Does NOT modify factory harmonics or dampening
- Includes replacement belts and bolts
- Easily reversible
That is right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ne View Post
I am sure this would void your engine warranty. But then again I could be wrong
According to Federal Law (Moss-Magnusson) this is not the case. Any failure would have to be reasonably linked to the part. That is a pretty big task. Not to say that shady dealers might try it, but the law is on your side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd54 View Post
I'm calling BS on this and for the M5 and M6. No other company, from the most obscure to the most established, claims these sort of power gains. I would sum up Evosport with this cliche: caveat emptor.
Again, please do your research. First of all, you really should watch what you say. Few tuners have been around as long in the US as we have or have had the results we have. You might want to check this out. And if you are going to make these claims, then be ready to back it up as we are. You think we are full of BS, lets see if you want to put that to the test? The car is here on the dyno now. You front the plane ticket and I will show you before and after dyno sheets and take you for a ride in the car. If I am wrong, I will pay for your trip. If you are wrong, you will post an apology and pay your own way? Up for it?

Second, MANY company's claim this - all the ones that have copied our products. I can give you a list if that helps!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchM3 View Post
so this is fake? Although the claims seem to be far fetched. Posting a faulty dyno is pretty slimy.

We have never and will never post a fake dyno. That is about all I need to say about that. Our reputation is not worth taking that type of risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
I have been to Evosport. Very legit company. They know what they are doing.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
Post from M5board.com, member bought and installed pulleys.

Evosport pulleys on a M5, with dyno. 26hp increase.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...light=evosport
There are many dyno's and posts on that forum with very happy customers and proven results on a dyno (not seat of the pants).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
If you get 10 more hp from the pulley, its worth the money in my opinion.
I agree. Easy, bulletproof, cheap, proven... What more can I say. But again, don't trust me - every BMW performance house in the country is about to start selling these (I have the PO's from many of them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I had the Evosports pulleys on my M6. I was tracing a vibration issue, it turned out to be the flywheel but I removed the pulley.

There are lots of vids of people with pulleys and without.....

IMHO, I don't think it actually does anything. I don't miss them, my car is just as fast without them.

The big minus to the pulleys on the M6 was the oil temp is usually higher (I am sure the coolant was too but we don't have a coolant gauge)
I am sorry that you did not feel the gains. Did you ever dyno test them?

BTW, it would only be possible to increase the oil temps if you only drive at very low RPM's. The ONLY way this could happen would be that at low RPM's the water pump spins slower as well as the car making more hp. So the water cooling will increase a bit, which COULD increase slightly. However, this has NEVER been documented by over 1000 customers and we have never seen a problem with oil or water temps on a street or race car. I know sometimes that people mistake coincidence for actuality, but I would ask that you contact us and we can certainly help you solve that issue. We have professionals on staff to properly identify and fix these types of issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
+1. Brad and Evosport are very upstanding. I would be shocked to find cooking the numbers going on here. Brad races and understands our cars.
Thanks Greg!

Of course they are not cooked - that just makes me laugh really! lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
Why is everyone saying 21 hp increase?

I might be stupid, but 367hp-349hp=18hp ?
Right?
The dyno sheets are WHEEL and the 21 is CRANK. Sorry for any confusion.

Please feel free to ask any questions, here to help!

thanks
Brad
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      07-23-2008, 05:17 PM   #31
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Nice numbers Brad We have installed a few sets of the Evosport E60 M5 pulley kits and our customers have been very pleased with the performance. In fact we need a set for our E92 M3 project car
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      07-23-2008, 05:18 PM   #32
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thanks for the answer Brad. I was thinking of pm'ing you or Simon on MBW to chime in here... guess I didn't have to!

when I get mine, it's going straight down to you guys.
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      07-23-2008, 05:26 PM   #33
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Brad,

Thanks for posting and representing your company on the forum. My questions below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
The principal is the same. By under driving the accessories on the motor you are able to re-gain some of the lost efficiency. On the modern motors, you cannot replace the alternator, PS or H2O pulleys effectively, so we go to the crank pulley (but do not touch the dampener). The accessories are under-driven less then 10% and are well within the engineering tolerances.
1. Why is there "lost efficiency" on an M car to begin with? Why would M engineers ship a car with a 21 hp deficit that they could have recovered?

We know M engineers are doing whatever it takes to extract every single hp out of the engine, especially given the competition the M3 is facing these days. What is it they are not willing to trade-off that you are willing to trade-off exactly? There is no silver bullet here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
In fact, if you drive at high RPM's more regularly, the under driven accessories will perform better as you will not cavitate the water pump especially.
2. Out of curiosity, do you know when the water pump on the M3 cavitates? If you do, how do you know exactly? What tests have you run?

3. What is the extent of testing you have done on this product in terms of durability? How many miles on an engine and under what loading conditions?

Thanks again.
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      07-23-2008, 05:32 PM   #34
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Sorry for the dumb question Brad but I did not understand... is the crank pulley underdriven or is it the same size just lighter? Thank you very much in advance for the answer.
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      07-23-2008, 05:57 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
The dyno sheets are WHEEL and the 21 is CRANK. Sorry for any confusion.

Please feel free to ask any questions, here to help!

thanks
Brad

Thanks for the replies,

Quick question for you, are you guys planning on coming out with a Short Shifter Kit for the E9x M3?
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      07-23-2008, 05:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
Nice numbers Brad We have installed a few sets of the Evosport E60 M5 pulley kits and our customers have been very pleased with the performance. In fact we need a set for our E92 M3 project car
Thanks for the support! I sent you a PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
thanks for the answer Brad. I was thinking of pm'ing you or Simon on MBW to chime in here... guess I didn't have to!

when I get mine, it's going straight down to you guys.
Thanks again for the support!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Brad,

Thanks for posting and representing your company on the forum. My questions below:

1. Why is there "lost efficiency" on an M car to begin with? Why would M engineers ship a car with a 21 hp deficit that they could have recovered?

We know M engineers are doing whatever it takes to extract every single hp out of the engine, especially given the competition the M3 is facing these days. What is it they are not willing to trade-off that you are willing to trade-off exactly? There is no silver bullet here.

2. Out of curiosity, do you know when the water pump on the M3 cavitates? If you do, how do you know exactly? What tests have you run?

3. What is the extent of testing you have done on this product in terms of durability? How many miles on an engine and under what loading conditions?

Thanks again.
Thank you for the opportunity!

I will attempt to answer your questions the best I can. Realize, I am not an engineer so I might not answer technically 100%, but I attempt to take what my engineers explain and translate it into something most can understand.

1. This is a fallacy that BMW engineers are maximizing performance on every level. You must realize that these car companies, and especially BMW being the most profitable around, make decisions all the time that are not based on performance. Often, they will make choices on cost, value, longevity, time-frame, etc. I cannot speak as to why BMW does or does not do what they do.

What I do KNOW is that the accessories are designed to spin and make maximum performance at lower RPM. For example, there may be a factory parameter that the car must idle for 120 minutes without water temps overheating? Or for the alternator to charge at idle? I dunno, but it is not that far fetched to guess. I will tell you that with accessory pulleys you cannot charge the battery at idle to 14v and you will overheat if you let it sit at idle for 2 hours.

This simply moves the effective point of the accessories to a higher RPM. So, if you are actually driving and enjoying the car, you are not trading anything (in fact you gain performance). If you are using it as a grocery getter, sitting at idle for a LONG time and never revving, then you should not mod the car anyhow! lol

2. I do not know about the pump on the new M3. I can tell you that it does on the e46. We have done extensive testing (including data logging) on street and race cars. We have also shared data with EMP Stewart Components who make the best replacement water pump for the e36 chassis BMW's.

3. We have done testing on the V8 on the street and dyno. With every load condition. In addition, we have 2+ years of testing on the M5. 6+ years on the e46 M3. 5+ years on AMG, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STI View Post
Sorry for the dumb question Brad but I did not understand... is the crank pulley underdriven or is it the same size just lighter? Thank you very much in advance for the answer.
The crank pulley is smaller which in turn under-drives the accessories (the same as if the accessory pulleys were larger). It is also lighter.

Thanks
Brad
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      07-23-2008, 06:26 PM   #37
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these guy's want your business and thay care about how thay are being judged on there product'ssThay don't have to do this on this board.. The reason why is thay really care on what we think....And i don't think that we would make them rich on buying pulley's.. I needed to say something because i own a business and i can understand on what there doing...When your heart is set on something that you like doing it really show's...Brad your good... I'll be buying... I bought your bumper markers and thay were perfect... thank's...
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      07-23-2008, 06:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
1. This is a fallacy that BMW engineers are maximizing performance on every level. You must realize that these car companies, and especially BMW being the most profitable around, make decisions all the time that are not based on performance. Often, they will make choices on cost, value, longevity, time-frame, etc. I cannot speak as to why BMW does or does not do what they do.
Thanks for the answers Brad.

I am not saying BMW engineers are maximizing performance at all costs. Actually, that's why I mentioned "trade-off". They are maximizing performance against competing criteria such as emissions, durability, everyday drivability, etc.

What I am taking away from your answer is that the car might run into some cooling and charging issues if it is operated at low rpms for an extended period of time.

One last question: have you taken an E9X M3 equiped with your product to the track? If you did, what oil temp did it reach after about 25 minutes of hard driving? I am still trying to understand why cooling would not be an issue even at higher vehicle/engine speeds if the car is pushed really hard. It's not as if the stock setup simply stays pinned at 210 degrees. Mine was running at around 255 on a tight track with a relatively short straight. So, why would under-driving the water pump not result in less cooling in those conditions? Are you saying that the water pump cativates at those engine speeds and does not function optimally in the stock setup to begin with so slowing it down doesn't result in less cooling at high revs?
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      07-23-2008, 10:20 PM   #39
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I think I'll be adding this mod to my list sometime next year. Cheap horsepower, I'm all for it!
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      07-23-2008, 10:45 PM   #40
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good responses. I'll be placing an order soon
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      07-24-2008, 02:23 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otoupalik View Post
OK? You must not know who we are or anything about our company. We don't make claims, we post dyno numbers. Marketing claims are for those that cannot back it up. Want to put your money up on a wager?

Again, please do your research. First of all, you really should watch what you say. Few tuners have been around as long in the US as we have or have had the results we have. You might want to check this out. And if you are going to make these claims, then be ready to back it up as we are. You think we are full of BS, lets see if you want to put that to the test? The car is here on the dyno now. You front the plane ticket and I will show you before and after dyno sheets and take you for a ride in the car. If I am wrong, I will pay for your trip. If you are wrong, you will post an apology and pay your own way? Up for it?
I accept the challenge Brad. I will fly down to Southern California to do the test. However the following conditions must be met by your company:

1. We use my car, which is in Socal right now. It is completely stock, a software flash may have been done but I can have the ecu flashed back to stock.
2. We use a shop of my choice, with a dyno I choose. This will be a neutral location for both of us.
3. You can supply the pulley kit, however none of your staff is allowed to install the kit or be anywhere near the dyno for the duration of the test.

The wager remains the same. If there is indeed a 21bhp gain I will issue an apology and pay for the trip, dyno costs, install etc... If the gain is less than 21bhp your company will pay for the installation and removal, dyno testing, my hotel and flights. Let me know so I can make flight arrangements and book some time off.
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      07-24-2008, 04:03 AM   #42
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^^ wow for real?! i guess i will sit back relax and watch how this turns out. then decide whether or not i will purchase the pulley. haha
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      07-24-2008, 06:16 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd54 View Post
I accept the challenge Brad. I will fly down to Southern California to do the test. However the following conditions must be met by your company:

1. We use my car, which is in Socal right now. It is completely stock, a software flash may have been done but I can have the ecu flashed back to stock.
2. We use a shop of my choice, with a dyno I choose. This will be a neutral location for both of us.
3. You can supply the pulley kit, however none of your staff is allowed to install the kit or be anywhere near the dyno for the duration of the test.

The wager remains the same. If there is indeed a 21bhp gain I will issue an apology and pay for the trip, dyno costs, install etc... If the gain is less than 21bhp your company will pay for the installation and removal, dyno testing, my hotel and flights. Let me know so I can make flight arrangements and book some time off.

This is Just Childish...If you are NOT convinced by the reply of the products representative just donít Buy it in the First place.Other people will....Why would you risk to loose like 1000 $ or more on a silly Bet for a product that costs less than 400$ ??? On the other hand Dyno number can vary due to Humidity-Temperature-Dyno and also wrong installation of this Product. This is my point of view i will not put myself in any arguing procedure with anyone...I think this will my first Mod,......from Thessaloniki,Greece,out!
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      07-24-2008, 07:02 AM   #44
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He has been publicly challenged, and he apparently has decided to accept the challenge. His choice. Nobody would have blamed him for ignoring it, and nobody should blame him for considering it. What is childish about that? It seems like both parties are happy with the situation; Brad was not asked to offer the test.

Weather conditions can be documented and accounted for. They would do a base run before the installation anyway. Also, it doesn't take that much to install a pulley properly.

I, for one, am looking forward to the results.
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