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      07-14-2008, 04:40 AM   #1
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Realistic Exhaust Pricing...

Just been in contact with Milltek. They have the full exahust system ready for the M3.

Stainless steel, full system, four 90mm pipes etc etc. Total price €1,121.

Slightly cheaper i think you will agree than Gruppe M and Remus.

Still waiting on a price to fit, but they indicated it would be no more than €200.

Booked in for the job to be done early september
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      07-14-2008, 04:43 AM   #2
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Red face

Actually igonre that. They just called back...made a mistake the price they gave was for the 335.

she is gone off to get a price for the M3
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      07-14-2008, 12:10 PM   #3
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I have to admit that M3 exhaust pricing is ridiculous. I'd love an Eisenmann system, but paying upwards of $2500 for a damned muffler is just lame.
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      07-14-2008, 12:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
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I have to admit that M3 exhaust pricing is ridiculous. I'd love an Eisenmann system, but paying upwards of $2500 for a damned muffler is just lame.
+1. I find it awkward that more people do not speak out about this because that is the only way pricing will come down and/or be more realistic. If everyone is just fine shelling $2500 for a muffler then obviously the price will never come down. And new exhausts coming to the market will look at those prices in pricing their own systems.
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      07-14-2008, 12:40 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Kadarin View Post
I have to admit that M3 exhaust pricing is ridiculous. I'd love an Eisenmann system, but paying upwards of $2500 for a damned muffler is just lame.
Eisenmann systems are the absolute highest quality exhausts in the business, and are priced accordingly. I can assure you that we’re not running away with thousands of dollars of your money every time we make a sale- the price is indeed justified by the manufacturing and import costs.

Eisenmann systems use the highest quality stainless steel throughout the muffler, with stainless steel internals and hangers for the longest possible exhaust life- few other manufacturers still offer 304 stainless internals, for cost reasons. Although other manufacturers may advertise a “stainless steel” muffler, they typically use mild steel hangers and internals for an overall lower quality product.

Eisenmann’s fit and finish is tested to the highest standards, both because of their need to pass TUV approval, and because they are an OEM manufacturer for Porsche and AMG cars. The TUV approval process is also extremely costly, and does add somewhat to the price.

Just about anyone with a few contacts in the aftermarket business can call a factory in Taiwan, China, Korea, or one of the many other major producers of outsourced product, and take advantage of third world labor rates to get cheap product made. Eisenmann stays above the outsourcing mess by using well paid, well taken care of workers in Germany.

Even if you live in Germany, the cost for an Eisenmann system is 1785 Euro, which translates into $2835, $4 off of our MSRP.

Simply put, Eisenmann systems are not for everyone- they’re the highest end stainless steel exhausts money can buy, and the price reflects this.
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      07-14-2008, 03:43 PM   #6
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Exhaust system prices

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Originally Posted by Ilia@IND View Post
Eisenmann systems are the absolute highest quality exhausts in the business, and are priced accordingly. I can assure you that we’re not running away with thousands of dollars of your money every time we make a sale- the price is indeed justified by the manufacturing and import costs.

Eisenmann systems use the highest quality stainless steel throughout the muffler, with stainless steel internals and hangers for the longest possible exhaust life- few other manufacturers still offer 304 stainless internals, for cost reasons. Although other manufacturers may advertise a “stainless steel” muffler, they typically use mild steel hangers and internals for an overall lower quality product.

Eisenmann’s fit and finish is tested to the highest standards, both because of their need to pass TUV approval, and because they are an OEM manufacturer for Porsche and AMG cars. The TUV approval process is also extremely costly, and does add somewhat to the price.

Just about anyone with a few contacts in the aftermarket business can call a factory in Taiwan, China, Korea, or one of the many other major producers of outsourced product, and take advantage of third world labor rates to get cheap product made. Eisenmann stays above the outsourcing mess by using well paid, well taken care of workers in Germany.

Even if you live in Germany, the cost for an Eisenmann system is 1785 Euro, which translates into $2835, $4 off of our MSRP.

Simply put, Eisenmann systems are not for everyone- they’re the highest end stainless steel exhausts money can buy, and the price reflects this.
I must agree that Eisenmann systems seem first rate. The general impression, though, is systems have nearly doubled in price in a few years over E46 M3 ones. I know the dollar has tanked against the Euro, and unlike BMW, small manufacturers can't absorb the difference. I also know metal prices have gone up significantly.

Speaking of internals, it would be great to see a cutaway of the inside of one of these.
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      07-14-2008, 04:23 PM   #7
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I agree that they may be top quality- but I wasn't born yesterday. I'm sure that both the distributor and the manufacturer add a sizable margin.
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      07-14-2008, 04:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post
+1. I find it awkward that more people do not speak out about this because that is the only way pricing will come down and/or be more realistic. If everyone is just fine shelling $2500 for a muffler then obviously the price will never come down. And new exhausts coming to the market will look at those prices in pricing their own systems.
You guys are a little ridiculous. $2500 is a good price if you consider that the high end exhaust systems from tuners like Amuse are over $10,000 US (which IS ridiculous). $2500 is in line with what I would expect for a duel exhaust system for a high end sports car. The E36 M3 system which requires about half the materials and probably about half the time to make is priced as it should and I believe the same can be said for the new M3 systems we are seeing. When it comes to these kinds of tuner parts, you get what you pay for. Dont forget that a lot of what you are paying for is the R&D that went into developing these exhaust systems so they sound great and work great with these new M3's, I am talking about qaulity. Probably only about 10% of new M3 owners are even planning on modding their M3's which makes for a small amount of potential customers (keep in mind not everyone is going to go to the same tuner). Very different than a Hona Civic or Acura Integra where there is a huge tuner scene and many potential customers. Supply versus demand also plays a roll. If anything we should be more willing to support the better/quality tuners for the M3 in hopes of getting more and more aftermarket support for the M3.

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      07-14-2008, 06:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
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You guys are a little ridiculous. $2500 is a good price if you consider that the high end exhaust systems from tuners like Amuse are over $10,000 US (which IS ridiculous). $2500 is in line with what I would expect for a duel exhaust system for a high end sports car. The E36 M3 system which requires about half the materials and probably about half the time to make is priced as it should and I believe the same can be said for the new M3 systems we are seeing. When it comes to these kinds of tuner parts, you get what you pay for. Dont forget that a lot of what you are paying for is the R&D that went into developing these exhaust systems so they sound great and work great with these new M3's, I am talking about qaulity. Probably only about 10% of new M3 owners are even planning on modding their M3's which makes for a small amount of potential customers (keep in mind not everyone is going to go to the same tuner). Very different than a Hona Civic or Acura Integra where there is a huge tuner scene and many potential customers. Supply versus demand also plays a roll. If anything we should be more willing to support the better/quality tuners for the M3 in hopes of getting more and more aftermarket support for the M3.

Jason

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So explain this to me: I have had two e46 M3's prior to my e92. In 2005 I purchased a brand new Eisenmann Race muffler from an authorized dealer for $1475 shipped to my door. In 2006 I bought a Supersprint lightweight race muffler for $1600 shipped to my door. I'm sorry, but there is not a $1000 difference in the raw materials and design process between the e46 and e92 muffler. Also, prior to my e92 I had a 997 C2S and mufflers for that car from the best companies such as AWE, Fabspeed, etc are $1600 with some badass tips...
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      07-14-2008, 06:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post
So explain this to me: I have had two e46 M3's prior to my e92. In 2005 I purchased a brand new Eisenmann Race muffler from an authorized dealer for $1475 shipped to my door. In 2006 I bought a Supersprint lightweight race muffler for $1600 shipped to my door. I'm sorry, but there is not a $1000 difference in the raw materials and design process between the e46 and e92 muffler. Also, prior to my e92 I had a 997 C2S and mufflers for that car from the best companies such as AWE, Fabspeed, etc are $1600 with some badass tips...
If you look at the value of the dollar compared to the Euro in the last 2-3 years, and add in the increase in metal and energy prices, I would bet you're just about at current prices. As was mentioned, in a low production product the manufacturer cannot absrb these increases like BMW has to some degree in the car price.
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      07-14-2008, 07:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilia@IND View Post
Eisenmann systems are the absolute highest quality exhausts in the business, and are priced accordingly. I can assure you that we’re not running away with thousands of dollars of your money every time we make a sale- the price is indeed justified by the manufacturing and import costs.

Eisenmann systems use the highest quality stainless steel throughout the muffler, with stainless steel internals and hangers for the longest possible exhaust life- few other manufacturers still offer 304 stainless internals, for cost reasons. Although other manufacturers may advertise a “stainless steel” muffler, they typically use mild steel hangers and internals for an overall lower quality product.

Eisenmann’s fit and finish is tested to the highest standards, both because of their need to pass TUV approval, and because they are an OEM manufacturer for Porsche and AMG cars. The TUV approval process is also extremely costly, and does add somewhat to the price.

Just about anyone with a few contacts in the aftermarket business can call a factory in Taiwan, China, Korea, or one of the many other major producers of outsourced product, and take advantage of third world labor rates to get cheap product made. Eisenmann stays above the outsourcing mess by using well paid, well taken care of workers in Germany.

Even if you live in Germany, the cost for an Eisenmann system is 1785 Euro, which translates into $2835, $4 off of our MSRP.

Simply put, Eisenmann systems are not for everyone- they’re the highest end stainless steel exhausts money can buy, and the price reflects this.
I have nothing against Eisenmann and have had the full Eisenmann setup in my e46 (midpipes, race muffler) but the price has almost doubled on a muffler in the past 3 yrs. $2600 seems justifiable for a muffler WITH midpipes, but a muffler alone come on. The Remus exhaust is $14xx and is also 304 stainless steel inside and out. It is not TUV approved but that doesn't mean much to me here in the US of A.
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      07-14-2008, 09:28 PM   #12
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REmus vs. Eisenmann

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Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post
I have nothing against Eisenmann and have had the full Eisenmann setup in my e46 (midpipes, race muffler) but the price has almost doubled on a muffler in the past 3 yrs. $2600 seems justifiable for a muffler WITH midpipes, but a muffler alone come on. The Remus exhaust is $14xx and is also 304 stainless steel inside and out. It is not TUV approved but that doesn't mean much to me here in the US of A.
Those are good points. Two things about the Remus I notice: 1) the two sides are not connected. I'm not sure how this affects the sound or performance. On the plus side you won't see the two separate halves from the rear; on the minus the two pieces may fall out of alignment easier. 2) Remus, like most, use generic rolled and seamed sheet steel to make the boxes. Eisenmann uses custom stampings, that are likely to be more rigid. Is that really a big advantage? Probably not.

I DO think Remus is a relative bargain at just over half the cost. If cost is not as much of an object, I think Eisenmann is probably better. Not a huge difference either way, though. And, I haven't heard the Remus in person.
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      07-14-2008, 10:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post
I have nothing against Eisenmann and have had the full Eisenmann setup in my e46 (midpipes, race muffler) but the price has almost doubled on a muffler in the past 3 yrs. $2600 seems justifiable for a muffler WITH midpipes, but a muffler alone come on. The Remus exhaust is $14xx and is also 304 stainless steel inside and out. It is not TUV approved but that doesn't mean much to me here in the US of A.
I agree with the TUV statment, although it is nice to know it is a product that is built to certain standards. The TUV rating guantifies into nill here in the US. Basically a cost factored into the price in getting the product to market that we pay for but does not benefit us in any way.

I am with you, as much as I like the product, and value a well designed product. I have a hard time shelling out $2600 for what is essentially a muffler. I have the funds available for the exhaust but I just can't make myself whip out the card and make the purchase. I guess at this point I want to wait a bit, see what else comes to market and revisit my options then. I have seen a few more exhaust options that have come out lately that may be promising, just need to find out pricing, quality, sound, etc.

Who knows perhaps after all is said and done Eisenmann may come out on top and I may end up with one. I just need to be a little patient.
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      07-15-2008, 03:13 AM   #14
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The Eisenmann may have been designed by NASA and manufactured out of some pure titanium alloy by robotic assemblers in a cleanroom, and it may be built to tolerances so exact that it would take new theories of quantum mechanics to spot imperfections, but it's still just a muffler and some fancy chrome tips that cost $2600. It could be the absolute best muffler that will ever be built in all of automotive history, but is it *really* worth $2600? Let's put this into perspective: I could just about buy a Mac Pro for that, or a pretty good flatscreen tv, or a set of fully assembled AFR aluminum cylinder heads for an LS1 engine.

Someone has got to be making about $2000 profit on this, at least.
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      07-15-2008, 10:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadarin View Post
The Eisenmann may have been designed by NASA and manufactured out of some pure titanium alloy by robotic assemblers in a cleanroom, and it may be built to tolerances so exact that it would take new theories of quantum mechanics to spot imperfections, but it's still just a muffler and some fancy chrome tips that cost $2600. It could be the absolute best muffler that will ever be built in all of automotive history, but is it *really* worth $2600? Let's put this into perspective: I could just about buy a Mac Pro for that, or a pretty good flatscreen tv, or a set of fully assembled AFR aluminum cylinder heads for an LS1 engine.

Someone has got to be making about $2000 profit on this, at least.
The Eisenmann is indeed very good quality, but honestly out of all the exhausts I have seen in my life the japanese and even american companies appear to have better welds than the European counterparts (I have had Eisenmann and Supersprint previously). Again, I would get an Eisenmann over other manufacturers if the price were more in line with e46 M3 pricing. I highly doubt the Eisenmann muffler for an e46 M3 costs $2500 now even given the weak value of the USD and higher price of raw materials. I am guessing perhaps $1800 tops...probably less. The truth is the $2600 price was probably arrived because the car is a new model, costs $70k, and is an M3. If it were a $70k Z06 and Eisenmann made mufflers for it, they would probably cost half as much...
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      07-15-2008, 10:44 AM   #16
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Don't forget that each of the people involved in the process has some if not all of the following expenses: materials costs, importing costs, TUV approval costs, R&D costs, marketing costs, paying your well paid first world employees, and so on.

Many people don’t understand the need for a distributor or retailer, but it’s important to keep in mind that a number of skills and industry contacts are needed in order to get an exhaust system from the manufacturer to you:

You need a person to speak the native language, at least a little bit, to help design the system for the appropriate market, test fit the system on a US market car, negotiate pricing and shipping times, and place the orders.

You need someone with contacts in the shipping industry to negotiate good shipping rates, consolidate shipments, allow for systems to clear customs, and pay customs fees. MSRP on an Eisenmann is $2800 US IN GERMANY, so imagine trying to get this exhaust landed in the US on your own. To air ship a single system to the US costs close to $1000 US dollars with duties, taxes, air freight, and brokerage and customs fees. You’d pay closer to $4000 US dollars for an Eisenmann E92 M3 system if you tried to ship it in yourself.

Even once the system is here, you need someone who can deal with the staff at the receiving airport, pick up the system, and get it to leave US customs in a timely fashion. When IND first started years ago, systems would be held at customs for an entire week, with us scrambling to get the necessary paperwork to make things happen. Now, with experience, we are usually able to clear systems through customs in a matter of hours, but only because we have working experience with the US customs system.

Simply put, we’re just not making very much money on Eisenmann systems. Are we making money? Of course! Do you make money at work? We need to as well, in order to stay in business.



To speak on the relevance of the TUV approval process to US customers:

The TUV requires all manufacturers to submit engineering drawings of all exhaust systems, and scrutinizes exhaust fit, weld quality, material quality, sound volume, and so on. The TUV approval process is quite expensive, and the cost is built into every system sold by the manufacturer. Eisenmann systems are also built in an ISO 9001 manufacturing environment, and that certification isn’t cheap either.

This might not mean anything now, but when the welds break on your outsourced system because there are no manufacturing standards to speak of, maybe you'll have wished you bought the more expensive system the first time.
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      07-15-2008, 11:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilia@IND View Post
Don't forget that each of the people involved in the process has some if not all of the following expenses: materials costs, importing costs, TUV approval costs, R&D costs, marketing costs, paying your well paid first world employees, and so on.

Many people don’t understand the need for a distributor or retailer, but it’s important to keep in mind that a number of skills and industry contacts are needed in order to get an exhaust system from the manufacturer to you:

You need a person to speak the native language, at least a little bit, to help design the system for the appropriate market, test fit the system on a US market car, negotiate pricing and shipping times, and place the orders.

You need someone with contacts in the shipping industry to negotiate good shipping rates, consolidate shipments, allow for systems to clear customs, and pay customs fees. MSRP on an Eisenmann is $2800 US IN GERMANY, so imagine trying to get this exhaust landed in the US on your own. To air ship a single system to the US costs close to $1000 US dollars with duties, taxes, air freight, and brokerage and customs fees. You’d pay closer to $4000 US dollars for an Eisenmann E92 M3 system if you tried to ship it in yourself.

Even once the system is here, you need someone who can deal with the staff at the receiving airport, pick up the system, and get it to leave US customs in a timely fashion. When IND first started years ago, systems would be held at customs for an entire week, with us scrambling to get the necessary paperwork to make things happen. Now, with experience, we are usually able to clear systems through customs in a matter of hours, but only because we have working experience with the US customs system.

Simply put, we’re just not making very much money on Eisenmann systems. Are we making money? Of course! Do you make money at work? We need to as well, in order to stay in business.



To speak on the relevance of the TUV approval process to US customers:

The TUV requires all manufacturers to submit engineering drawings of all exhaust systems, and scrutinizes exhaust fit, weld quality, material quality, sound volume, and so on. The TUV approval process is quite expensive, and the cost is built into every system sold by the manufacturer. Eisenmann systems are also built in an ISO 9001 manufacturing environment, and that certification isn’t cheap either.

This might not mean anything now, but when the welds break on your outsourced system because there are no manufacturing standards to speak of, maybe you'll have wished you bought the more expensive system the first time.
Its honestly a matter of luck. I had no problems with my SS lightweight race, but my Eisenmann race started having a rattling issue within 6 months. Had to send it back, they had to examine the exhaust, and two months later I got a new replacement Eisenmann race. You would be hard pressed to tell a difference in quality between Eisenmann, Borla, Tanabe, etc...
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      07-15-2008, 11:30 AM   #18
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I assure you that with us as the new distributor, warranty claims will not take 6 months to fulfill. We understand that when warrantying an exhaust system, it's critical to deliver ASAP, and act accordingly.

Are you sure that the product that was rattling was a genuine Eisenmann product? Eisenmann never made a midpipe for the E46 M3.
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      07-15-2008, 01:58 PM   #19
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The current offerings look positively cheap (Remus, Eisenmann, etc.) next to the Kreissieg F1 (but the sound!!!) and the aforementioned Amuse. One curiosity that irks me is that finding realistic dyno results for these exhausts is difficult - often they are only "predictions." What is the rationale for this? "Lesser" cars (the sport compact crowd) usually have a wealth of dyno tested claims (dubious as they may be, but at least they have something...) to compare when buying an exhaust...
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      07-15-2008, 02:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post
So explain this to me: I have had two e46 M3's prior to my e92. In 2005 I purchased a brand new Eisenmann Race muffler from an authorized dealer for $1475 shipped to my door. In 2006 I bought a Supersprint lightweight race muffler for $1600 shipped to my door. I'm sorry, but there is not a $1000 difference in the raw materials and design process between the e46 and e92 muffler. Also, prior to my e92 I had a 997 C2S and mufflers for that car from the best companies such as AWE, Fabspeed, etc are $1600 with some badass tips...
Atually the E46 M3 Eisenmann systems are over $2000 these days, about $2100 depending on where you go... you must have had a great deal back then. Inflation maybe? $2500 doesnt look like a huge premium to me....

Jason
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      07-15-2008, 02:54 PM   #21
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Here is the pricing for a similar E46 M3 Eisenmann exhuast system with 83mm tips....

Eisenmann Exhaust for the BMW M3 (e46) - 4x83mm double-walled round tips $2,467.80

Other cheaper options available of course but this is the most like the E92 versions out right now...

http://www.beastpower.com/Merchant2/...ode=bmw-m3-e46

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      07-15-2008, 03:08 PM   #22
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Speaking of the Kriessieg...

Will the Kriessieg fit all E9X models or will it be coupe only?
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