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      06-29-2008, 05:58 AM   #23
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my frd bought a 335 2 weeks ago...
went into service for 3 times already
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      06-29-2008, 06:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage View Post
two words...badge whores. There are plenty of other cars built just as well or better, that are cheaper and get better MPG and are more reliable then a BMW, that do what a car is basically meant to do which is get you from Point A to Point B. Once a badge whore moves on, there's always 2-3 more ready to take their place.
So you're telling me that BMW's sucess comes from building poor quality, unreliable cars, but becasue they are a fashion statement left over from the 80's, everybody buys them?
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      06-29-2008, 08:46 AM   #25
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I notice that a lot of people slept through statistics, at least in this country. I'm just glad that these people don't work in pharmacology or something crazy like that. We've become a gullible society, no joke. People even turn to a forum comprised of 14-25 y.o. to decide what color is best, if they got a good lease rate, etc.

Anyway, US News published the best high schools (public), and Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, and Brooklyn Tech were not too high. A high school from Vermont was like #2 with a student body of 500. BMW is like Stuyvesant, and Porsche is like the Vermont HS. At the end of the day, which valedictorian goes to Harvard Business or Medical School?
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      06-29-2008, 05:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post
So you're telling me that BMW's sucess comes from building poor quality, unreliable cars, but becasue they are a fashion statement left over from the 80's, everybody buys them?
finally someone gets it....BMW are mainly bought by people who want to be seen in a BMW or they want to be able to tell people they own one. It's not because BMW's are the pinnacle of quality, reliablity, or best in class treatment by dealers. People who want that buy something from Japan.
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      06-29-2008, 05:59 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage View Post
two words...badge whores. There are plenty of other cars built just as well or better, that are cheaper and get better MPG and are more reliable then a BMW, that do what a car is basically meant to do which is get you from Point A to Point B. Once a badge whore moves on, there's always 2-3 more ready to take their place.
Except for trolling, what are you doing here? Blame your utter ignorance for not knowing that no other mainstream competitor touches BMW for driving dynamic *and fun*.
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      06-29-2008, 07:44 PM   #28
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articles like this are always a catch 22. I JUST bought my coupe a few months back now, knowing full well that you can encounter numerous issues with the car. BMWs have always been around middle of the pack when it comes to service and so forth...reason being, theres a lot more shiat in a bmw to break down. Most of the issues are usually electronical or nature, other than that...they are GENERALLY just as reliable as any other car.

FORDS ARE PIECES OF SHIAT, NOTORIOUS FOR BEING PIECES OF SHIAT...and have only recently seen gains after years of going into the shitter. I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT, they are NOT good cars. and to tell ME, the consumer that FORD is a better vehicle than BMW...i just dont buy it.

and as far as the FUN factor is concerned, as mentioned above...absolutely, the second i got in that car, it put a smile on my face. I continue to enjoy driving every day, and so do my passengers...now dont get me wrong, i know its no FORD FOCUS, but it will JUST HAVE TO DO.

one day, maybe one day.
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      06-29-2008, 11:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Except for trolling, what are you doing here? Blame your utter ignorance for not knowing that no other mainstream competitor touches BMW for driving dynamic *and fun*.
blah, blah, blah...you came out of hiberation for that?? I'll blame your utter ignorance for not knowing I've contributed more to this forum in the last 3 years you ever will. What a waste, see you in a couple of years when you return.
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      06-29-2008, 11:30 PM   #30
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According to the reports I've seen (Consumer Reports statistics), the 328 is pretty damn reliable -- quite a bit better than average. The 335 is a bit better than average. The 335xi maybe a touch below average.

Hardly the crappy unreliable cars they're made out to be by some here.

Remember, few people post all over the forums about how trouble-free their cars have been.




For example, I never mention it, but my car has been flawless--9300 miles of perfect operation. No exploding sunroofs, no failing HPFPs, no electronic gremlims, no limp-modes, no nothing. I just find it boring to report "nothing wrong here."
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      06-30-2008, 12:41 AM   #31
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I think that JD power is more of a measure of consumer satisfaction than actual manufacturing defects. That said, I'm not planning on keeping my BMW past the free maintenance/full warranty period
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      06-30-2008, 03:31 AM   #32
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i've owned a handful of BMWs, new and old, and they're trouble-free for the most part.
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      06-30-2008, 05:00 AM   #33
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Oh hell no, Audi should be like #24..
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      06-30-2008, 01:32 PM   #34
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Most of my work and research is in statistics so this is coming from an engineering/mathematics point of view.

Statistics are just numbers. The numbers by themselves do not tell the whole story. For example, Ford is rated above BMW for reliability on the 90 day survey. So then how come the Fords depreciate really fast?

Interpreting the numbers, you'd be correct to say that people who buy expensive cars are very picky. This factor alone will skew the results. Ford F-150's are probably one of the most commonly leased vehicles for construction. I don't think construction workers driving a company truck will really take care of the truck as much as the owner of a BMW. What we're talking about is several different types of buyers and populations, then drawing conclusions between populations.

Also, there is no indication on the severity of the problems. Sure you can have 100 small problems where 99 are cosmetic...vs one problem where the transmission dies on you. Which car then is more "reliable"?

There's also the method of study itself. They said they sent questionaires to 81,500 people. I'm pretty sure this is the total sample since I doubt there would be 81,500 2008 Porsche owners (and the fact that JD Power has to get ALL of them to participate). From this figure, I would suspect that for each car brand, they had an insignificant sample size. Assuming that they have even sample sizes, that'll mean 514 cars per sample. I would suspect that more people own Toyotas and Hondas over Porsches so that probably would be a sample size of 100 for the Porsches or less. BMW would be slightly more - maybe 200 or 300. This means that if one person ends up with a lemon, it would artificially skew the results as well. The larger the population size, the more accurate the number. A proper study would say something like "this study is accurate 95% of the time with an error of +/- 3.5%". JD Power doesn't specify the error (because if they did it would be very very high).

Using the same logic that most people use when it comes to numbers, you could take statistics on the number of sales and number of people in a shopping mall starting December 1 and do your survey until December 25. You'll notice that there will be more people in the malls and sales are higher. You'll notice on average that people will be spending more. The numbers will peak at December 24 and suddenly Christmas happens on December 25 and all numbers drop off. Therefore, from the statistics, it is clearly obvious that SHOPPING CAUSES CHRISTMAS.

Really, if you look at the survey they did, it's full of problems and the conclusions they're drawing are very very thin. JD Power makes their money by selling their information to companies to find out what their customers think and also by selling the licensing fee to use its logo and company name on marketing products. So it's NOT a scientific study but more of a marketing study.

If you put numbers on something and say that it's credible, people will believe you. I know this because I'm right 95.57% of the time.
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      06-30-2008, 01:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M View Post
Therefore, from the statistics, it is clearly obvious that SHOPPING CAUSES CHRISTMAS.
I love this quote

Reminds me of the recent Direct TV commercials when they show the cable company skewing their statistics to show they have more HD channels then DTV.
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      06-30-2008, 01:42 PM   #36
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thank god for warranty.....I beat the piss out of my car, other than a one time fuel problem back in 06, the car is a beast
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      06-30-2008, 01:48 PM   #37
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I beat the piss out of my car,
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      06-30-2008, 02:14 PM   #38
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I've heard the argument before, and I think it has some merit, that BMWs will be "judged" more harshly than other cars due to the expectations of the customers. Some of this is due to the perception that German cars are of high quality, some of it is due to the "buyer's remorse" at having just paid a premium for the car, some of it is due to the "more demanding" nature of the buyer, and some of it is due to the "social climbing" aspect, especially for the 3 series.

On the subject of buyers being more demanding, I think it's much more often true of a BMW owner than say a Lexus or MB owner. My wife loves her Lexus RX350, and frankly hates most things about my 335i, the X5 I had overnight to have her try, the 535i I tried to get her to buy, and so on. Everything in her Lexus works like she expects it to, with nothing like iDrive, quirky stalk controls, useless cupholders, and so on. When she drove the X5 she couldn't figure out how the weird "banana" shifter worked, and nearly put the damn thing through the garage wall as a result. When she asked the dealer to show her how to find a POI using iDrive, he couldn't do so, and we couldn't figure it out on our own. I know, I know, many of you will come to the defense of BMW's non-intuitive user interfaces, but none of your arguments hold water for someone like my wife who isn't interested in having to "learn" how to operate a car.

So what does this mean in the context of this thread? I know that if she had bought an X5 or 535i a few months ago instead of her 2nd RX, she would not have helped the quality rankings if they had intereviewed her. It wouldn't matter whether or not the "problems" she would have reported were real or truly quality related, and the report wouldn't show that.

On the flip side, I love my 335i and am willing to forgive most of the quirks. Thankfully I don't have iDrive, and I can live with the stupid cupholders and a few other things. I find her Lexus to be boring to drive, but beyond that it doesn't have many things that are annoying or poor quality. I don't know what the list of questions include, but if it included things like "car is boring", "handling is terrible", "engine sounds like a vacuum cleaner" and so on, then perhaps Lexus, MB, etc. would have more issues, but then again would their typical owners agree with what most of us think?

I also believe that a BMW, again especially the 3 series, is often the first "expensive" car that many people buy. Someone moving from a Honda, Toyota, or even an Acura may have high expectations given the relatively high price that they paid for the car. They think it should be as good or better than their previous cars, and will notice every little thing. It's related to the "buyer's remorse" problem, but may be worse as they are stretching to buy the car.

Okay, this is long winded, but on the subject of Porsche being #1, I'd like to see more information on who is being interviewed. Is is mainly Cayenne owners who use them as daily drivers, in which case it is impressive, or is it mainly 911 (and even Boxster/Cayman) owners who are mainly using them as fun/weekend/etc. cars? If the latter, then they should wait a year instead of 90 days because the cars aren't being used enough to matter. There is also a weird "attitude" amongst many Porsche owners that nothing should ever be said bad about the cars or marque. It's almost as if they believe that if they complain that Porsche will find out and ban them from future purchases, factory visits, and so on.

Okay, enough of a rant. I would like to see a "satisfaction" survey after 1, 2, and 4 years of ownership, in which case I think BMW might do quite well.
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      06-30-2008, 02:36 PM   #39
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Guys, as it was said above, it is statistics and anyone who knows what they are doing can make them say what every they want.

Also, this is JD Powers data, how many of you sent in your JD Power survey back in when you got, I know I started filling it out after two and half pages I stopped and never got to it since I didn't have any problems in the first 3 months.

Unless you can see all the car companies repair data and compare them all, using survey data is flawed.

If you really want to know how one company compares with another look at how much money they put into warranty reserves which they are required to report in their 10Ks the more money they put in the worse their products are.

Check this site out

http://warrantyweek.com/
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      06-30-2008, 03:00 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staszek View Post
Great! Do you still have the e46?

nah, finally sold it, 236k on it. Sold to a parts guy at a bmw dealership, I do miss it though. I have a 07' 328i now
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      06-30-2008, 03:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro View Post

Unless you can see all the car companies repair data and compare them all, using survey data is flawed.

If you really want to know how one company compares with another look at how much money they put into warranty reserves which they are required to report in their 10Ks the more money they put in the worse their products are.

Check this site out

http://warrantyweek.com/
that is a fantastic idea. thanks for sharing. i did a search based on your suggestion and i came up with a very interesting presentation from warranty week that plots warranty claims as a % of product revenue

https://www.aiag.org/scriptcontent/e...NOTE_final.pdf

bmw isn't in there unfortunately, but this demonstrates the validity of the approach you suggested.
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      06-30-2008, 03:48 PM   #42
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nah, finally sold it, 236k on it. Sold to a parts guy at a bmw dealership, I do miss it though. I have a 07' 328i now
Nice!!! I still have mine, I am going to drop it for the new M3 but I am going to wait till next year now I think.
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      06-30-2008, 04:10 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage View Post
finally someone gets it....BMW are mainly bought by people who want to be seen in a BMW or they want to be able to tell people they own one. It's not because BMW's are the pinnacle of quality, reliablity, or best in class treatment by dealers. People who want that buy something from Japan.

That's a bold assertion. Prove it.
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      06-30-2008, 05:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
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blah, blah, blah...you came out of hiberation for that?? I'll blame your utter ignorance for not knowing I've contributed more to this forum in the last 3 years you ever will. What a waste, see you in a couple of years when you return.
What is a REAL waste is your contribution for 3 years, if your only thought about BMW is that those cars are badge whores. Stupid is even understated.

NOW would me a good time for you to GO.
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