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      06-10-2008, 10:51 AM   #221
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I'm sorry that you misunderstood.

It's not possible to be honest with the customer and give dyno graphs for mods with small power gains.

If a modification's power gain is smaller than the margin of error inherent in the dyno you're using, the measured gain from that modification is not repeatable.

In order to be as honest with the customer as possible, we do not list measurements that are not verifiable, either by the customer, or even by us from run to run.

If your exhaust is claimed to have a 10hp gain, and the dyno results vary by 20-30hp from run to run, that 10hp gain will not be consistent. One run might show a 400hp car, while the next can show a 415hp car, and the run after that will show the car making 390hp.

As I said, a repeatable measure of performance is backpressure. A reduction in backpressure, while keeping the same tubing sizes, will yield an increase in flow, and therefore performance. Backpressure measurements are a much more repeatable, honest way of telling the customer how a system performs.
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      06-10-2008, 11:41 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilia@industry View Post
I'm sorry that you misunderstood.

It's not possible to be honest with the customer and give dyno graphs for mods with small power gains.

If a modification's power gain is smaller than the margin of error inherent in the dyno you're using, the measured gain from that modification is not repeatable.

In order to be as honest with the customer as possible, we do not list measurements that are not verifiable, either by the customer, or even by us from run to run.

If your exhaust is claimed to have a 10hp gain, and the dyno results vary by 20-30hp from run to run, that 10hp gain will not be consistent. One run might show a 400hp car, while the next can show a 415hp car, and the run after that will show the car making 390hp.

As I said, a repeatable measure of performance is backpressure. A reduction in backpressure, while keeping the same tubing sizes, will yield an increase in flow, and therefore performance. Backpressure measurements are a much more repeatable, honest way of telling the customer how a system performs.

what kinda dyno are you using thats so inconsistent?

We have a DynoJet and see variances of only 1 to 2 hp.... with a extremely consistent car in the same day.... i would put the M3 in the "extremely consistent" category..
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      06-10-2008, 11:43 AM   #223
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but i do agree with you in some ways....


its easy to make a dyno number jump up...... i could make the same car gain wheel hp just by doing lil tricks.. and not even changing any performance on the car...


so like you say.. dyno numbers arnt everything... they are fun tho...
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      06-10-2008, 11:59 AM   #224
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Exactly. Dyno graphs are just too easy to change. If I tell you that the system has a 15hp gain, and you dyno it and it has a 5 hp gain because your dyno setup is different, I have a problem.

That's why we rely on backpressure to give relative figures.
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      06-10-2008, 12:36 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilia@industry View Post
Exactly. Dyno graphs are just too easy to change. If I tell you that the system has a 15hp gain, and you dyno it and it has a 5 hp gain because your dyno setup is different, I have a problem.

That's why we rely on backpressure to give relative figures.
I am with you on this. Dyno's don't lie is a lie! lol. Thanks for being "honest" and informative. You are spot-on with the reasoning not to post dyno info. Some people will just not understand though.....
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      06-10-2008, 12:50 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilia@industry View Post
Exactly. Dyno graphs are just too easy to change. If I tell you that the system has a 15hp gain, and you dyno it and it has a 5 hp gain because your dyno setup is different, I have a problem.

That's why we rely on backpressure to give relative figures.
I don't want to start a flame war but your explanation only further questions your honesty. How does one in the tuning business not know about the accurate and innacurate dynos? Like someone mentioned the Dynojet. If BMW dynos the car before it rolls off the factory to make sure it is up to spec I find it hard to believe that a company selling exhausts in the multiple K range cannot even do ONE.

Why post backpressure information at all if it's practically indeterminable to find out the resulting HP as you put it. The only thing I can guess is that there may be a performance loss and you don't wish to reveal it.

Sorry for the threadjack.
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      06-10-2008, 12:58 PM   #227
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When BMW dynos a car, they do it under controlled conditions in a temperature controlled environment, with no other motives than quality control.

When a random 3rd party dynos a car, they do it under questionable conditions, and questionable techniques.



As several people have already mentioned, it's very easy to add or remove horsepower from a car on any given dyno runs. I can take a stock E92 M3, and make more than one run on the same dyno on the same day, and get fluctuations high enough to sell just about any part I like.

Anyone who has substantial experience on a dyno can tell you that they can add 10hp to a car just by running the car differently, or setting up the correction factors differently.

I don't need to install an exhaust to produce a gain of 10hp or more. I can run our M3 bone stock once, and then run it again with slightly different setup and environment, and get the 10hp gain you'd like to see. Then I can post the two graphs of that stock M3 online, and say that our exhaust made those gains. Anyone can do that. Your system could have a net loss, and if you dyno it "right", you could show it to have a net gain.

Again, Eisenmann Germany's stance on this issue- as well as ours- reflects this fact.
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      06-10-2008, 01:07 PM   #228
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So how about as a reputable company you get a reputable shop to dyno the car with the exhaust. Why is that so difficult? Are there no reputable shops? Are you not a reputable company? I'm well aware of the different parameters that exist which MIGHT make dynos results completely worthless but thats why I mentioned having someone reputable.

"Eisenmann exhausts are engineered and manufactured (Hand-crafted) in Stuttgart, Germany for maximum performance and deep, super sporty sound, using 100 % ultra light weight stainless steel construction."

This is what you state, how can you say "maximum performance" when you are unable AND/OR unwilling to even quantify it?
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      06-10-2008, 01:26 PM   #229
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Here's the deal in plain English:

I dyno the exhaust. It makes 430hp.

You dyno the exhaust. It makes 440hp. Our dynos are different, on different days, with different people running them, under different conditions.

If I post dyno numbers, I have to stick to them, even though that's not possible. If I say the exhaust makes 430hp, and it makes 440hp on your dyno because of your setup, your dyno, or your conditions, I'm in trouble. The lack of consistency inherent in dyno testing means that I stay away from quoting numbers you may or may not get.

You can test backpressure- a figure directly related to the amount of air the exhaust flows at a given RPM, and get an easily repeatable figure than you can verify. This is more compatible with the scientific method, and I am therefore more comfortable quoting this figure.

This is the exact reason that nearly nobody in the industry dynos their systems.



In any case, we've got a dyno day scheduled at Fall-Line Motorsports in Chicago when the M3 comes back from it's photoshoot in California. We've had this scheduled for some time now, and are only waiting on Fall Line's racing schedule, and our own travel schedule to coincide so that we can do some testing of the exhaust, as well as a number of other parts, on their dyno. Even at that point, I'm NOT going to use dyno graphs to sell the exhaust, as it's NOT something you can take home with you.

You can be guaranteed that when you put the exhaust on your car, it will sound just as fantastic as ours. You can be guaranteed that the system is handmade, in Germany, from excellent quality stainless steel. All of these things, I can stand behind. I CANNOT guarantee that you will get the same dyno numbers as I do, when you put your car on YOUR dyno. I can't control your environment, your engine's condition, or your dyno operator's level of competency.

I think I've explained my stance enough. I can only guarantee things that are in my control, that's what it comes down to.

I'm going to stop here.
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      06-10-2008, 01:31 PM   #230
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That's fine. Seriously, how difficult was that? "This is what we got, your results may vary due to weather conditions, car, and dyno". I believe it's called a "disclaimer". Jeez.
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      06-10-2008, 01:33 PM   #231
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You guys should take this to pm
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      06-10-2008, 01:59 PM   #232
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IM seriously torn between Eisenmann and Active Autowerkes...
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      06-10-2008, 11:07 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchM3 View Post
IM seriously torn between Eisenmann and Active Autowerkes...

Feel free to PM an IND representative any time for any questions that you may have or to inquire about purchasing an Eisenmann system.

Or for a better opinion on the product ask one of the members here that has an Eisenmann for their thought on the exhaust system.
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      06-11-2008, 03:26 PM   #234
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It sounds nutso with the SS cat/resonator delete pipe! Kinda raspy like the E46 M3 but I like it.....
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      06-12-2008, 01:51 PM   #235
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It sounds nutso with the SS cat/resonator delete pipe! Kinda raspy like the E46 M3 but I like it.....
You should hear it in person
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      06-12-2008, 03:33 PM   #236
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Yea I bet it does!!
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      06-24-2008, 08:56 AM   #237
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Photos of M3post member "ShadeM3" with the Eisenmann E92 M3 Race performance installed with Vorsteiner Rear diffuser.



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      06-24-2008, 09:40 AM   #238
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Get those Sports, please!
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      06-24-2008, 09:58 AM   #239
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Get those Sports, please!
Greetings Greg,

I'm working around the clock to speed Germany up on the Sport performance systems I will get an update today.
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      06-24-2008, 11:36 AM   #240
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Very nice pics indeed!! Car looks great and so do the wheels!
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      06-24-2008, 01:41 PM   #241
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i got my Eisenmann Race saturday, i'm very impressed, but i think i will order the Supersprint X-Pipes
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      06-24-2008, 01:49 PM   #242
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i got my Eisenmann Race saturday, i'm very impressed, but i think i will order the Supersprint X-Pipes
Congrats! Any photos?
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