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      06-04-2008, 12:20 PM   #67
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BM3W, the answer the probably yes, though 63 additional hp sounds a bit much w/o exhaust modifications etc... I have just emails my Brabus and Kleemann contacts to see what is up and get an aswer from the best. Will let you know in a few!!
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      06-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #68
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Personally, I think the C63 and M3 are so close in performance, that it comes down to personal preference. I know that I would never look at a C63 and think, omg my M3 is soo much better. They are both incredible cars and it comes down to what is more important to the buyer. Either way, I would be very happy to have either one.
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      06-04-2008, 01:00 PM   #69
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OK, just talked to the tuners, here´s the scoop on the C63 AMG. No way you can get 65 additional bhp’s from the chip. They literally said that is “waaaay to high”, they are getting about 20bhp and they can do that for $1,495. They are currently producing headers as well with 200 cell metal cats that are $4,200.00 (5 hours labor to install these) and they believe they may get perhaps 50bhp total (ECU + headers) with all this. If anyone says they can get 65 from the chip alone, they are lying!!! The SL63 makes 518bhp SAE (525bhp DIN) due to improved headers, downpipes and exhaust as well as a slightly improved intake. The CLK Black Series is around 500bhp (I've seen 500bhp figures, probably SAE as well as 507bhp figures probably DIN).
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      06-04-2008, 01:53 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico View Post
OK, just talked to the tuners, here´s the scoop on the C63 AMG. No way you can get 65 additional bhp’s from the chip. They literally said that is “waaaay to high”, they are getting about 20bhp and they can do that for $1,495. They are currently producing headers as well with 200 cell metal cats that are $4,200.00 (5 hours labor to install these) and they believe they may get perhaps 50bhp total (ECU + headers) with all this. If anyone says they can get 65 from the chip alone, they are lying!!! The SL63 makes 518bhp SAE (525bhp DIN) due to improved headers, downpipes and exhaust as well as a slightly improved intake. The CLK Black Series is around 505bhp.
For the record, I was just quoting from memory the figure I read regarding how the engine was detuned from the 6.3 in the higher end benzes. I wasn't sure if it was a electronic detuning or if it was related to parts as well. I thought maybe, although not probably, they detuned it electronically and you could unlock that through a flash. The more I think about it though, the more I realize how ridiculous that would be lol. Still, even unleashing another 20 hp would be nice, and should be somewhat noticeable.

Anyway, thanks for the info bro.
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      06-04-2008, 01:54 PM   #71
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Hans, I read that you already have a CEL with 60miles on the odo. That's gotta take the buzz out of your new car. I sincerely hope that MB reliability is a lot better than it used to be. That was the final reason for me not going with a C63 initially.

Yes I did. And Yes it was a major buzzkill. I did not like having it in the shop for 2 days immediately after purchase. The dealer replaced the cam position sensor, I picked it up last night and it is running good. I hope that is it as far as new car bugs. The car is awesome and I love driving it. I got back in my Evo today and it felt slow. ... and I haven't even taken the C63 over 4000rpm. Speed is very easy in this car -- that's what makes it a great around-town car. It is fast without breaking a sweat!
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      06-04-2008, 02:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BM3W! View Post
For the record, I was just quoting from memory the figure I read regarding how the engine was detuned from the 6.3 in the higher end benzes. I wasn't sure if it was a electronic detuning or if it was related to parts as well. I thought maybe, although not probably, they detuned it electronically and you could unlock that through a flash. The more I think about it though, the more I realize how ridiculous that would be lol. Still, even unleashing another 20 hp would be nice, and should be somewhat noticeable.

Anyway, thanks for the info bro.
Noted my friend and no problem!! I researched this since I had similar doubts to yours. And yes, 20bhp for $1,500 is not to shabby at all in my book. Hey, I'm going to do my ECU on the M for more than that (and less). Hahaha!! Anyway, getting 50bhp for say $5,700 on the C63 sounds very attractive to me. I've paid more than that in Exhaust, intake and ECU (That I have not done since no one has a reliable reflash out yet) for more than that and maybe get 40 additional bhp. Maybe.
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      06-04-2008, 02:51 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
With your theory everyone should be driving Miata's.

The only way to see the M3's peak power, is if you ring out the motor. You simply can't drive at high rpm's all day in the M3.

The C63 is far more suited to be a daily driver. All the torque is delivered around 2,000 to 3,000 rpm.

Unlike the M3 which peak power is at 8,300 rpm.
No...not when discussing two cars with different build philosophies...

And who was talking about peak HP, I said that you can truly never extract the full HP or speeds of either of these cars on a daily basis safely...but 8400 RPM in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, at speeds < 80MPH in the M, I would take any day over the C63...

I wring out the S54 everyday, have with both of my E46's and have yet to have a problem...and I'll take BMW reliability over Merc's, as would numerous reliability testers...

You go from comparing peak HP to Trq...the M3's torque band is wide and flat...it is actually the one huge improvement they made with the S65 over the S54, which was seriously lacking...if you think ~300lbs tr isn't sufficient for daily driving, and the availability of it over a wide band, then to each their own...

But there is a reason the C63 is less efficient than the E9X M....
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      06-04-2008, 04:47 PM   #74
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MB and there damn traction control, don't get me started. Its like having your mom in the back seat with her hand on a fuel cutoff button. If they could sort that mess out the C63 could be tons of fun. At least you don't have to look at it while you dirve it.
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      06-04-2008, 05:06 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Yes I did. And Yes it was a major buzzkill. I did not like having it in the shop for 2 days immediately after purchase. The dealer replaced the cam position sensor, I picked it up last night and it is running good. I hope that is it as far as new car bugs. The car is awesome and I love driving it. I got back in my Evo today and it felt slow. ... and I haven't even taken the C63 over 4000rpm. Speed is very easy in this car -- that's what makes it a great around-town car. It is fast without breaking a sweat!
Good to hear that it was taken care of. Sounds like it was a relatively easy fix!
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      06-04-2008, 05:42 PM   #76
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Good to hear that it was taken care of. Sounds like it was a relatively easy fix!
Yep, I was really listening and feeling 'er out on the way home, to make sure all was well. It was.

Lots of haters here... guess I can't blame them, it's a BMW board.

Traction control has yet to flash for me. The car lays down the power very well. Of course, I haven't floored it yet. Top Gear's review didn't mention that there is a "sport" mode. So anyone who is dissing the T/C, or the handling, or saying the torque and power isn't usable.... hasn't driven one. I have. You have to beat the M3 to be fast. Not so with this car. I had a Z4 M coupe and it was the same way. I don't like driving around winding out gears in order to get the car to move ahead of traffic. The C63 has effortless speed and moves without even trying. Kind of like my C5 Z06 did. And when you DO spank it... ohhh man... LOOK OUT!

btw, one look at the main M3 board here is enough to know the relibility out of the gate on this car ain't so hot. So far though, it's mostly in Europe where the car has been out longer. I wouldn't declare any winners in reliability just yet....
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      06-04-2008, 08:13 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by exadius View Post
MB and there damn traction control, don't get me started. Its like having your mom in the back seat with her hand on a fuel cutoff button. If they could sort that mess out the C63 could be tons of fun. At least you don't have to look at it while you dirve it.
I agree, but IMO they haver really fixed that issue on the C63, try it out. Hey, I still prefer the M3, but not by mutch at all. Try it sometime, you'll love it.
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      06-04-2008, 08:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I don't like driving around winding out gears in order to get the car to move ahead of traffic. The C63 has effortless speed and moves without even trying. Kind of like my C5 Z06 did. And when you DO spank it... ohhh man... LOOK OUT!
From running engine torque through the power train and factoring wheel size at 60 mph the M3 in 5th gear has about 1007 rear wheel torque (rwt) @ around 2944 rpm and the C63 has about 1044 rwt @ around 2283 rpm. In 6th it's 878 and 812 rwt @ 2567 and 1872 rpm (yes, more for the M3). You have to go to 3rd gear at 1772 and 2282 rwt and 4658 and 4383 rpm respectively that you see a significant advantage for the C63. Why doesn't the C63 need to downshift and the M3 does? At what speed and gear do you see this advantage? I can run the numbers for any speed/gear you'd like.

The M3 is lighter too and thus any given amount of torque will introduce 10% (or so) greater acceleration on the M3. Humans are not torsion meters, we only feel acceleration.

I'm not saying you don't perceive this advantage, I'm just wondering if it's real and from what effect it comes. More torque at the flywheel is great but if it isn't translated into greater torque at the rear wheels (by selecting the proper gear) then what good is it? From each shift at redline the M3 will loose a lot of torque because it has relatively high engine torque right to redline. The C63 definitely doesn't gain as much proportional advantage from downshifting but at 60 the M3's the better car if you don't downshift.

At 40 it's all C63 but one gear down on the M3 (which doesn't put the M3 near redline) puts the M3 up again on rwt in comparison to the C63. For example, the C63 at 40 mph in 4th gear is at 1430 rwt @ 2085 rpm. The M3 in 3th gear is at 1705 rwt @ 3105 rpm. That is hardly near redline and the M3 is faster.

I've heard this theory enough times that I'm going to call BS on it and hope you'll explain to me how I'm wrong?
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      06-04-2008, 08:44 PM   #79
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From running engine torque through the power train and factoring wheel size at 60 mph the M3 in 5th gear has about 1007 rear wheel torque (rwt) @ around 2944 rpm and the C63 has about 1044 rwt @ around 2283 rpm. In 6th it's 878 and 812 rwt @ 2567 and 1872 rpm (yes, more for the M3). You have to go to 3rd gear at 1772 and 2282 rwt and 4658 and 4383 rpm respectively that you see a significant advantage for the C63. Why doesn't the C63 need to downshift and the M3 does? At what speed and gear do you see this advantage? I can run the numbers for any speed/gear you'd like.

The M3 is lighter too and thus any given amount of torque will introduce 10% (or so) greater acceleration on the M3. Humans are not torsion meters, we only feel acceleration.

I'm not saying you don't perceive this advantage, I'm just wondering if it's real and from what effect it comes. More torque at the flywheel is great but if it isn't translated into greater torque at the rear wheels (by selecting the proper gear) then what good is it? From each shift at redline the M3 will loose a lot of torque because it has relatively high engine torque right to redline. The C63 definitely doesn't gain as much proportional advantage from downshifting but at 60 the M3's the better car if you don't downshift.

At 40 it's all C63 but one gear down on the M3 (which doesn't put the M3 near redline) puts the M3 up again on rwt in comparison to the C63. For example, the C63 at 40 mph in 4th gear is at 1430 rwt @ 2085 rpm. The M3 in 3th gear is at 1705 rwt @ 3105 rpm. That is hardly near redline and the M3 is faster.

I've heard this theory enough times that I'm going to call BS on it and hope you'll explain to me how I'm wrong?
I don't really understand what you're saying... but that might be because I flunked math in college and never took physics.

I'm not good with numbers. The only ones I understand are

451 > 414
443 > 295

j/k

I don't like winding out the gears. I do like being thrown back in my seat no matter how fast I'm going. That makes the C63 the better car for me. I have driven both the M3 and C63, hard, to redline. The numbers may look similar on paper... but in feel, there is a HUGE difference. That's all I needed to know.
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      06-04-2008, 08:53 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I don't really understand what you're saying... but that might be because I flunked math in college and never took physics.

I'm not good with numbers.
Well then, I guess you're in the right car.

Oh, but my C63 just "feels" sooooo gooood.

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      06-04-2008, 11:25 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I don't like winding out the gears. I do like being thrown back in my seat no matter how fast I'm going. That makes the C63 the better car for me. I have driven both the M3 and C63, hard, to redline. The numbers may look similar on paper... but in feel, there is a HUGE difference. That's all I needed to know.
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      06-04-2008, 11:38 PM   #82
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Ahh .. I remember it well, the ol' "Performance vs Character" sentiment. Whoever said it does come down to personal preference hit it on the head. Yes, the Benz's V8 would out-accelerate the M3, but that's like saying the roadrunner would outrun a cheetah. I mean they're both freaking fast. Both cars performance would be considered "exotic" just 10 years ago. There's no obvious choice here objectively speaking. Buy what you want, plain and simple. To me, there's no such thing as paying too much for something you really (and I mean REALLY) want, but there is a such thing as paying too much for something you don't like.

Let's face it, we would never fully exploit the potential any of these cars have, at least, not in everyday driving. Any who does is irresponsible and would probably wind up in a closet-casket funeral before the first recommended service. What we pay for, essentially, is the enjoyment that we receive to know that we have a car that performs heads and shoulders better than 95% of the cars on the road. Even if we seldom need it to. However, that's no bad thing. It's your money. Who am I (or anyone) to dictate how you should spend it.

As for myself, I won't be able to afford the cars being referred to, but if I could, I'd have to pass on both. There's something called "CTS-V" coming out this fall, with enough horsepower to knock the moon out of orbit. Combine that with the mod-friendly GM V8, and you have a serious weapon on your hand.
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      06-04-2008, 11:43 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Bunkei View Post
Ahh .. I remember it well, the ol' "Performance vs Character" sentiment. Whoever said it does come down to personal preference hit it on the head. Yes, the Benz's V8 would out-accelerate the M3, but that's like saying the roadrunner would outrun a cheetah. I mean they're both freaking fast. Both cars performance would be considered "exotic" just 10 years ago. There's no obvious choice here objectively speaking. Buy what you want, plain and simple. To me, there's no such thing as paying too much for something you really (and I mean REALLY) want, but there is a such thing as paying too much for something you don't like.

Let's face it, we would never fully exploit the potential any of these cars have, at least, not in everyday driving. Any who does is irresponsible and would probably wind up in a closet-casket funeral before the first recommended service. What we pay for, essentially, is the enjoyment that we receive to know that we have a car that performs heads and shoulders better than 95% of the cars on the road. Even if we seldom need it to. However, that's no bad thing. It's your money. Who am I (or anyone) to dictate how you should spend it.

As for myself, I won't be able to afford the cars being referred to, but if I could, I'd have to pass on both. There's something called "CTS-V" coming out this fall, with enough horsepower to knock the moon out of orbit. Combine that with the mod-friendly GM V8, and you have a serious weapon on your hand.
Well said...I have to admit, I do like the C63, with it's load of power and torque...but I would take the upcoming CTS-V over it any day of the week...

There's a very good chance I'll end up with one...
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      06-05-2008, 12:11 AM   #84
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Well, I don’t think I would take the CTS-V over the C63, but I sure have to say this is the first Caddy that has really impressed me. The seats are a wonder, the shape (really aggressive and no kidding style) is certainly the best I’ve ever seen out of GM, powerful 550bhp and 550lb/ft torque, Brembo 380 mm front discs with 6 piston calipers, reworked suspension and it goes on and on. However, and there is always that, IMO it is still a bit too space ship looking, a tad over the top and the interior too busy. Great car anyways, would love to hear your impressions once you get it.
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      06-05-2008, 10:33 AM   #85
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Well then, I guess you're in the right car.
I left that one wide open for you... as I'm tired of doing my own self-deprecating.

If you haven't seen this Top Gear (I'm sure you have) ... go to 8:55 in the video... these guys seem to have our argument and the personality types pegged, LOL Yeah, I'm a huge Clarkson fan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usQi1peqQOs
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      06-05-2008, 11:31 AM   #86
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I left that one wide open for you... as I'm tired of doing my own self-deprecating.

If you haven't seen this Top Gear (I'm sure you have) ... go to 8:55 in the video... these guys seem to have our argument and the personality types pegged, LOL Yeah, I'm a huge Clarkson fan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usQi1peqQOs
Yep, I love that show. got to 5:00 in this video



I'd wind up wrapped around a tree if I got the Merc.
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      06-05-2008, 03:20 PM   #87
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Yep, I love that show. got to 5:00 in this video



I'd wind up wrapped around a tree if I got the Merc.

Yeah, I think I have the dialogue memorized in this segment. "dAMMMMn I'll go again." hehe.

Thankfully I have a dedicated track car so I don't have to take my C63 on the track... although I plan to take it out for a few laps to play.

BTW did anyone ever consider the M3 has superior tires out of the factory (Pilot Sports vs Pirellis) which will contribute to its handling numbers in all the tests....? Something to think about!

I dunno about you guys, but when I crack open the car rags, looking for the results of the cover comparos, the first stat I go to is 0-60 and 0-100. If my favorite car doesn't "win" that one, I look at the skidpad #s.... more g's are largely a result of better tires on that one however.

It's all good!
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      06-05-2008, 03:28 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I left that one wide open for you... as I'm tired of doing my own self-deprecating.

If you haven't seen this Top Gear (I'm sure you have) ... go to 8:55 in the video... these guys seem to have our argument and the personality types pegged, LOL Yeah, I'm a huge Clarkson fan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usQi1peqQOs
come on Hans! admit that you made a boo-boo by buying a AMG and hanging around an M3 board hoping to cover it up
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