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      06-02-2008, 02:45 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
How can you say this test is legitimate when the better performance car is at $135k and they penalized it for being too expensive while comparing it to the M3 at $63k. The bottom line is, the M3 is not in the same league as the Porsche, not even remotely close. Not in prestige and certainly not in performance. BTW, the "gotta have it" factor, are they really serious about this. They'll rather have the M3 than the 997tt, please. This alone makes this test quite eligitimate and really discredits C&D.
Porsche??? Performance wise, the M3 is not in the same league as the TT but it is in the same league as the 997S, and last time I checked, the 997 was still made by Porsche...

Just because you perceive the prestige of Porsche as such doesn't make it so...
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      06-02-2008, 02:51 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by KINGLEH View Post
the GTR is just as daily drivable then the M3... the sus is a little stiffer... but other then that.. its basically the same....

the GTR has more room inside...



the main purpose for both cars is speed... so the GTR wins.... its MUCH faster...
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Originally Posted by KINGLEH View Post
ive drivin both the new GTR and M3....... both were very comfortable and very daily drivable... easy to negotiate and live with.....


its a sports car... if we weren't buying a car for speed in mind FIRST..... we would be driving X5 or a 7 series....


I orderd a M3 because of the feel i will have driving it.. IE. the quickness and sportiness....

Then chose it also because of its comfort and quality.....

and i was talking about the front seats....... Cmon.. neither of us will be sitting in the back of either... im 6'5 btw
You miss the point of the M...it isn't built for just speed...at speeds below 65MPH, handling is far more important, unless your a red light drag racer...and even then, the only thing that matters is 0-60mph, so the rest of the power that's available in all of these cars, one isn't even able to extract...

I put adults in the back of my M all the time...that's one of the downfalls of the 997 and GTR...the overall characteristics of the M are what won the comparo...
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      06-02-2008, 06:52 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by 440hpe46 View Post
Porsche??? Performance wise, the M3 is not in the same league as the TT but it is in the same league as the 997S, and last time I checked, the 997 was still made by Porsche...

Just because you perceive the prestige of Porsche as such doesn't make it so...
You have a good point, it is a matter of opinion in some cases when it comes to a car having prestige. BTW, i did point out that they should've compared it with the 997S Carrera instead.
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      06-02-2008, 07:09 AM   #114
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You miss the point of the M...it isn't built for just speed...at speeds below 65MPH, handling is far more important, unless your a red light drag racer...and even then, the only thing that matters is 0-60mph, so the rest of the power that's available in all of these cars, one isn't even able to extract...

I put adults in the back of my M all the time...that's one of the downfalls of the 997 and GTR...the overall characteristics of the M are what won the comparo...
I don't have a problem with the M3 getting points for rear seat space, comfort, etc... What I do have a problem with is that these rags create a category that doesn't exist in the real world. I believe it is safe to say that the vast majority of 997tt buyers are not concerned these things. (Many 997tt buyers will consider an M3 as the first or second car; with the tt being three deep.) Like I said before, it's like comparing a motorcycle to a sports car, then deducting points for the bike because of the lack of passenger comfort.
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      06-02-2008, 07:58 AM   #115
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Perhaps this was not the main part of your point but please don't start this again. Just about the only parts the cars (335i and M3) share is the unibody, glass, trunk lid, doors and lighting and some interior trim. Other than that the cars are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE GROUND UP - NEARLY EVERYTHING (at least all of the major components that contribute to performance). Ugh.
The unibody defines a big part of how a car will drive and handle. I've got a free unibody available to me and there is no way I'd try to build anything out of it because it's from a piece of crap car. A good unibody construction lays out many components (weight distribution, rigidity, torsional flexion, interior space, how much the body panels will flex and squeak, etc...) that will allow you to make a great car. If the 335 didn't have a good unibody then there is no way the M3 could offer the luxury or performance it does. The post by e36jakeo is essentially correct. The M3 is what it is because of the 3 series car it builds on. There are more differences than e36jakeo lists and these lead to an M3 that is incrementally better (in every aspect, not just handling) than the 335 but they are not different cars. Starting with a great unibody is key to the M3's abilities. Give the M division the unibody from a Corrolla, Civic, Fusion or Cobalt and they couldn't touch the 3 series based M3.
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      06-02-2008, 08:29 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by KINGLEH View Post
the GTR is just as daily drivable then the M3... the sus is a little stiffer... but other then that.. its basically the same....
No, the M3 is a much nicer ride. Especially with EDC. That's what the article said.

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Originally Posted by KINGLEH View Post
the GTR has more room inside...
Wrong again.

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Originally Posted by KINGLEH View Post
the main purpose for both cars is speed... so the GTR wins.... its MUCH faster...
Nope. The purpose is for a fast car that is street-able and fun. The M3 is the more practical and luxurious. The GTR is faster, but not as fun. Again, this is from the article.
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      06-02-2008, 08:37 AM   #117
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"Prestige" is such a nebulous concept... is it really the history of the marque, or is it a reflection of price, like folks who consistently rated wines higher in blind taste tests when told they were more expensive?
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      06-02-2008, 08:59 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Keto View Post
"Prestige" is such a nebulous concept... is it really the history of the marque, or is it a reflection of price, like folks who consistently rated wines higher in blind taste tests when told they were more expensive?
how about both?
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      06-02-2008, 09:06 AM   #119
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how about both?
Because the second choice is the essence of poserdom -- liking something for its price.
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      06-02-2008, 10:04 AM   #120
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"Prestige" is such a nebulous concept... is it really the history of the marque, or is it a reflection of price, like folks who consistently rated wines higher in blind taste tests when told they were more expensive?
I agree, but in this case with the Porsche it is both. But it is also more of the history behind it which reflects and dictates the price that it commands.
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      06-02-2008, 10:17 AM   #121
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I agree, but in this case with the Porsche it is both. But it is also more of the history behind it which reflects and dictates the price that it commands.
Again, I am not sure that most people appreciate the history of Porsche as much as it's an expensive car. That's why I feel prestige is nebulous. It's like the M3 -- some of us love the M car tradition, others see an expensive BMW.
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      06-02-2008, 12:52 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by 440hpe46 View Post
You miss the point of the M...it isn't built for just speed...at speeds below 65MPH, handling is far more important, unless your a red light drag racer...and even then, the only thing that matters is 0-60mph, so the rest of the power that's available in all of these cars, one isn't even able to extract...

I put adults in the back of my M all the time...that's one of the downfalls of the 997 and GTR...the overall characteristics of the M are what won the comparo...


when i say "speed".... i mean overall handling.. accelerating... braking.... im not talking about top end speed....


i am a road racer... so thats first priority....
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      06-02-2008, 01:00 PM   #123
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No, the M3 is a much nicer ride. Especially with EDC. That's what the article said.



Wrong again.



Nope. The purpose is for a fast car that is street-able and fun. The M3 is the more practical and luxurious. The GTR is faster, but not as fun. Again, this is from the article.


ok... ive drivin both in real life..... and read the articles...


ive slid both cars around a corner.... the M3 would be more fun for sliding around... but the GTR would be alotta fun killing everyone at a DE event...

duh the BMW is a better ride.... we all would know that without even reading the articles.... or driving (which you havent done)


i also hafta ask you.. have you even drivin a E92 M?

if you have drivin neither... i dont really know how your trying to make a solid point...




for me.. i chose the M because i think i could have more fun on the street... ONLY because of its rwd.... because i love oversteer...
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      06-02-2008, 03:16 PM   #124
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The unibody defines a big part of how a car will drive and handle. I've got a free unibody available to me and there is no way I'd try to build anything out of it because it's from a piece of crap car. A good unibody construction lays out many components (weight distribution, rigidity, torsional flexion, interior space, how much the body panels will flex and squeak, etc...) that will allow you to make a great car. If the 335 didn't have a good unibody then there is no way the M3 could offer the luxury or performance it does. The post by e36jakeo is essentially correct. The M3 is what it is because of the 3 series car it builds on. There are more differences than e36jakeo lists and these lead to an M3 that is incrementally better (in every aspect, not just handling) than the 335 but they are not different cars. Starting with a great unibody is key to the M3's abilities. Give the M division the unibody from a Corrolla, Civic, Fusion or Cobalt and they couldn't touch the 3 series based M3.
Good point, I wholeheartedly agree that the body itself is key and that the 335i made a great starting point for the M3. However you simply can not deny the importance of the other parts, the ones that are not in common with the 335i; engine, transmission, wheels, tires, brakes, DSC system, front and rear subframes, suspension arms, shocks, struts, sway bars, exhaust, etc., etc.

So my conclusion is that all of these other things are MORE important. Imagine if you could this thought experiment. Take all of these "other" compoenents listed above from the E92 M3 and somehow morph them so they could work with an old/outdated/inferior chassis like the E36 chassis. Not a bad chassis but not much compared to the 335i. Would this car still trump the 335i? I think it is pretty clear it would.
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      06-02-2008, 09:18 PM   #125
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i like how you act like this is something new for Nissan.... they have been doing the GTR thing in the same style since the 80s... and that car is still loved today... the R32......


nissan did it... cause they can..... and the new GTR is an amazing car.....


im sure one will hand you your ass one day...
'hand me my ass'

the Hells Angels couldn't do it...pretty sure the gtr won't

do you base your self esteem on street racing? son, that's plain pathetic...do you feel 'bad' when you lose one? does it make you angry and want to harm others? or just feel less of a man?
get a life, and I mean that in the most constructive way possible considering that we are discussing your psychological foibles...
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      06-02-2008, 09:19 PM   #126
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And as you you know the quoted EPA mileage rating in the same article for the GT-R is 17/21. Of course we all know the EPA mileage rating for the M3 is 14/20. Now which is the more important figure to you, one magazine's figures for one test or the EPA's tested ratings?
I've others for the M3, 19.1, and the gtr 16, what's your point?
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      06-02-2008, 09:21 PM   #127
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Ummmm........... come on now..... put down the booze...
I don't drink...I don't need psychological crutches in my life...like inebriation and fantasies about gtr's
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      06-03-2008, 12:42 AM   #128
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'hand me my ass'

the Hells Angels couldn't do it...pretty sure the gtr won't

do you base your self esteem on street racing? son, that's plain pathetic...do you feel 'bad' when you lose one? does it make you angry and want to harm others? or just feel less of a man?
get a life, and I mean that in the most constructive way possible considering that we are discussing your psychological foibles...

your the one that just said "the hells angels couldn't"

who sais that..........


i haven't street raced in 4 years..... noone wants to race me anymore....


and one day.. you will come across a new GTR... at a redlight.... maby on a road course... and u will get beat.... and i dont even know what u drive...


the car is very fast..... but like i said before.. i chose a new M3....


when u get the chance.... go drive a new GTR
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      06-03-2008, 05:24 PM   #129
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ok... ive drivin both in real life..... and read the articles...


ive slid both cars around a corner.... the M3 would be more fun for sliding around... but the GTR would be alotta fun killing everyone at a DE event...

duh the BMW is a better ride.... we all would know that without even reading the articles.... or driving (which you havent done)


i also hafta ask you.. have you even drivin a E92 M?

if you have drivin neither... i dont really know how your trying to make a solid point...




for me.. i chose the M because i think i could have more fun on the street... ONLY because of its rwd.... because i love oversteer...
I've never even seen a GT-R. Yet.

But I have driven an E90 M3. And owned an E46 M3.

You've conceded the first point. On the second you have but to look at the specs. For the third, I can't truly say, but the article said the M3 is more fun and that was what this thread is about -- the magazine article. But you just stated the same thing, "... for me.. i chose the M because i think i could have more fun on the street... ".

So, do you still think I'm not making a solid point here?
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      06-03-2008, 06:09 PM   #130
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anything you say about the GTR.. i gotta take for what its worth...... which is not much... since uve never even seen one.. and ive drivin one...


You were just stating alot of assumptions and you really dont even know the car....


im just tired of people talking about it when they dont know anything about it...

obviously im a huge GTR fan.... Jap and German fan to be honest.....


i own now and will most likely own 1 car from Jap and Euro for the rest of my life.... they both are great... but sometimes Jap just doesnt get credit when its Due...
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      06-03-2008, 07:12 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPE View Post
'hand me my ass'

the Hells Angels couldn't do it...pretty sure the gtr won't

do you base your self esteem on street racing? son, that's plain pathetic...do you feel 'bad' when you lose one? does it make you angry and want to harm others? or just feel less of a man?
get a life, and I mean that in the most constructive way possible considering that we are discussing your psychological foibles...
A professional engineer, associating with the Hells Angels, that's sort of odd.
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      06-03-2008, 08:46 PM   #132
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A professional engineer, associating with the Hells Angels, that's sort of odd.
I am pretty sure Art is anti Hells Angels (as I am) from the posts that I have read here and on the other forum where he is a mod. I also interpret his post as he had some sort of altercation with the HA and he prevailed. Art has a very strong moral compass.

He is an extremely intellingent and has facility expressing his views (more than me but english is my second language).

From his posts I can say I agree with him 98% of the time. I can agree that he appears very BMW and M biased but if you look at his arguments, he makes a solid case.

BTW Art I am not that active on the other forum but my SN is Mitsurugi.

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